I have merged the Mono-Red and Rx Aggro threads. I moved it to Proven for obvious reasons. Between bannings and a lack of recent tournament data, I have not used the official methodology for the decision to move this to Proven.
I apologize if the interleaving of the discussions causes confusion. I opted to merge the threads because the most relevant discussion was in the Mono-Red thread, but the Rx Aggro thread has a well-crafted primer and the author of the Mono-Red thread has not been active in it recently. I am reluctant to act arbitrarily with regard to the threads, but this seems like the best course. I did attempt to communicate to SuperSeed via PM before acting. Please let me know if there is a problem.
Congratulations! Enjoy! - hoser2
- JamesTheIV
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You're playing a linear deck and have issues with auto-scooping? Methinks you're in the wrong strategy. All linears in Legacy have cards they just pack it up to when resolved. Iona is Burn's.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo -
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thatmarkguy posted a message on StompyI don't think the ideal is to first-turn him. I think the ideal is to play him on T2 to second-time-evolve Experiment One. T1 Experiment One, T2 Dryad Militant and this guy, and swing with a 3/3 E1, and you already have 8 power on board.Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
(There were most assuredly people supposing "The drawback isn't worth it" when Path to Exile was first spoiled, too.) -
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D90Dennis14 posted a message on R/x AggroRelease the Gremlins seems a bit mana inensive for a 19x-land deck.Posted in: Standard Archives
Regarding Dual Shot, isn't Blazing Volley better as it can hit more creatures ?
Or Chandra's Pyrohelix that can burn face as well ?
Kari Zev's Expertise seems good but I prefer Wrangle as it is cheaper (I'd rather avoid 3-mana spells) and can get most creatures
(like Glorybringer or Archangel Avacyn).
With such a low curve and discarding to Bloodrage Brawler the extra spell isn't even guaranteed. -
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D90Dennis14 posted a message on R/x Aggrohttps://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-27-2-tix-two-tix-red-standardPosted in: Standard Archives
This deck seems to be not bad at all and very fast, especially being so cheap.
Personally I've tweaked it a bit:
-3x Borderland Marauder, +2x Scourge Wolf, +1x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
-4x Built to Smash, +4x Consuming Fervor
And changed the SB to:
4x Wrangle, 3x By Force, 2x Magmatic Chasm, 2x Cut // Ribbons and 4x Magma Spray.
This is my list:
Mono Red BlitzMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creature (25)
4x Bomat Courier
4x Soul-Scar Mage
4x Falkenrath Gorger
4x Bloodrage Brawler
2x Scourge Wolf
1x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4x Ahn-Crop Crasher
2x Reckless BushwhackerEnchantment (8)
4x Cartouche of Zeal
4x Consuming Fervor
Instant (4)
4x Shock
Sorcery (4)
4x Incendiary Flow
Land (19)
19 MountainSideboard (15)
4x Magma Spray
2x Cut // Ribbons
4x Wrangle
2x Magmatic Chasm
3x By Force
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The Decepticon posted a message on R/x AggroCarlos Mohor 12-3 @ GP SantiagoPosted in: Standard Archives
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (22)
3x Bomat Courier
3x Flameblade Adept
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Dread Wanderer
4x Bloodrage Brawler
4x Hazoret the Fervent
Instant (8)
4x Fiery Temper
4x Unlicensed DisintegrationArtifact (4)
4x Key to the City
Sorcery (4)
4x Alms of the Vein
Lands (22)
4x Foreboding Ruins
4x Smoldering Marsh
7x Mountain
7x SwampSideboard (15)
4x Magma Spray
3x Dispossess
3x Lay Bare the Heart
2x Fatal Push
2x By Force
1x Yahenni's Expertise
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elconquistador1985 posted a message on BurnPosted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Soldier »Quote from Cainsson »I'd play Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental before even considering Vexing Devil. It sucked before Eidolon and Swifty, and it sucks way more nowadays. It's not a clever tech, it's pulling down your pants and asking your opponent to be gentle.
lol... you'll be surprised by the look the opponent makes when you drop the Devil on the table...
Anyway... I have 7 new open slots... I tried packing Rift Bolt and I still get that "pulling down my pants and asking my opponent to be gentle" feeling when I see two Rift Bolts in my opening hand...
Yeah, bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil. If you have to rely on bad opponents to make Vexing Devil good, then Vexing Devil isn't very good. -
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Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Soldier »@Nevelo: I'm not going to waste my time and respond to you're post... It is all wrong. You never played with Vexing Devil, and you never played Vexing Devil with Eidolon.
More like you can't respond to my argument, so your reduced to just saying I'm wrong and attacking me as a person. You don't know me, nor what I have played and tested.
Top Banned
While, it's not a surprise, timing is definitely a bit funky. I would have figured they'd give Harsh Mentor a shot at fighting it first.
I wonder if we even care to run Exquisite anymore at this point. It really was mainly for Miracles. That would free up a lot of slots. -
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Burn does not have card draw. This means that we generally have to be able to assemble lethal from the top 11-12 cards of our deck. Some of those cards will need to be lands, so in reality, we have perhaps between 7-10 cards to work with depending on how long the game goes for. This means, in order for our deck to win, we must be able to consistently deal 20 damage with 7-10 cards. Each card then in some sense has to be able to do around 3 damage on average to be a worthwhile inclusion.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
But even apart from considering that we have to assemble 7 cards that do at least 3 damage, we have to do that in a specific time frame. We have a limited window in which we must do the damage before our opponent can assemble their own plan and win. This means, we need to be able to be very consistent at assembling 20 damage from those 11-12 cards on top of our deck. This means our cards have to be reliable in doing their damage.
Furthermore, 20 damage aside, we would in theory only want the best possible burn spells and creatures in our 60 cards. There might be many cards that will do 3 damage, but to have the best possible deck, we should naturally pick the cards that have a combination of the highest average damage capability in the first 4 turns. If we ran our deck in a goldfishing program for 1000 games, we would want our average winning turn to be the lowest it possible can be.
Therefore, all that being said, we should be picking the top 10 best Red cards that have the best combination of damage (high avg output), speed (goldfish turn), and reliability (consistency).
Vexing Devil has issues on all of these respects in the course of actual gameplay.
Concerning Damage. There are a few key scenarios that cover most of simple sequences:
- T1 on the Play Vexing Devil, our opponent does not have removal. Generally we get 4 damage only from the sacrifice trigger.
- T1 on the Play Vexing Devil, our opponent has removal. They opt for it to stick, and during their turn kill it. It does 0 damage.
- T1 on the Draw Vexing Devil, our opponent does not have removal or a large enough T2 creature. Again, we'll get 4 damage, but the difference from Play and draw is significant, since now there are more potentially viable answers to a 4/3 on T1.
- T1 on the Draw Vexing Devil, our opponent has removal or a large T2 creature. They either kill it before we even pass the turn, or untap and deploy their large blocker during their T2. It does zero damage.
- T3+ we topdeck Vexing Devil. At this point in the game, it is unlikely we will be able to score any damage with a 4/3 without haste or evasion. At best it is a chump blocker and functionally represents us drawing Healing Salve or they can afford to risk the damage to prevent us from blocking their likely lethal attack and it is truly a blank.
Under these scenarios, it becomes clear that Vexing Devil's upper limit is 4 damage, and its floor is almost worse than drawing a land. Furthermore, it's best possible is generally contingent on casting him T1. Statistically speaking, we will only have T1 Devil about 40% of games if we run a playset. So, already we are looking at some poor numbers, because at least half of the T1 scenarios involve it dealing no damage at all.
If we say that the first 4 scenarios about equally possible, and the 5th makes up for the rest of our games (60%), then we are looking at an overall damage output of less than 1 damage. Even looking at the T1 scenarios on their own, we are still only talking about an average of 2 damage. Certainly, actual game statistics might bear this out to be a bit better overall, this still isn't a great result. We would almost be better served to run Shock, since it is just about always 2 damage.
Concerning Speed. This is where things get a bit more interesting for Devil, and not in a good way. Because Devil has such a steep drop off of effectiveness past T1, we are highly incentivized to play him on T1. Sequencing is adversely effected as a result, because we have other plays which are also best on T1, like Guide. And we also have competing plays on T2, which often are more important (e.g. Eidolon).
Consider the following example. We have Guide, Devil, and Eidolon with 2 lands in hand. If we play Devil first, we likely delay Guide to T3 because Eidolon is often the better play on T2. Guide is much less likely to get in for any damage at that point due to blockers, so we might have to sit on him in hand until we get an opening. If we instead delay Devil until T3, the same problem occurs with Devil, except we are less likely to get any value at all from Devil. Therefore, T1 Devil is the correct play, but also overall makes our other cards in hand less effective.
As such, Vexing Devil suffers from similar problems to Black Vise in that, playing it T1 diminishes the value of our Guides and Swiftspears, but sequencing almost demands that it is ordered that way in order for us to ensure that we achieve some amount of damage with each card. In other words, Vexing Devil puts averse constraints on our sequencing which adversely affects our overall goldfish as a deck.
Concerning Reliablity This one on its face is fairly obvious. The fact that it is never what we need it to be in any particular situation contributes to the card in some sense adding a bit of RNG to the deck. In other words, Devil depends less on what our hand looks like and how we sequence it vs our opponent, and much more to do with what our opponent has in their hand, something we have absolutely no control over. So we are introducing into our limited 7-10 cards in the top 11-12 cards of our deck to a wild card, a joker, that at best is a +1 Lava Spike, but often will be a complete blank. That means in some number of games, we will essentially have to draw an additional card to make up for it.
Consider the alternative cards. Guide and Swiftspear have haste, so they function primarily as burn spells. On the play in particular, because they will almost always get through for damage short of Force of Will from the opponent. Their floor is closer to 2 damage, and their ceiling is only limited by the opponent's life total and our ability to attack through. Even a late topdeck is not completely worthless, because they potentially allow us to sneak through a chip shot if the opponent either is not playing around haste, or cannot afford to.
Eidolon's floor is also closer to 2 damage. As long as we can resolve him, he will pretty much always deal 2 to the opponent, if only from the trigger generated from them casting a removal spell. At best it has no limit, puts our opponent into a position where they can only cast a limited number of spells, and potentially outright locks them out of playing any further spells without dying. It can even in some circumstances prevent them from attacking with their larger creature, due to not being able to take the crack back.
Grim is likely the closest analogue, due to it having summoning sickness and that preventing it from dealing any damage the turn you cast him. Indeed, Grim is likely the weakest creature of the lot, and it is understandable therefore that decks often only play 1-2. Grim has a couple of things going for it though. If the opponent has no removal, they cannot force you to sacrifice it. It also in some sense has a form of evasion, as it does not care what creatures are on board. Furthermore, and this is the main draw to playing Grim, he is absolutely devastating to certain creature based decks that are light on removal (e.g. Elves). He is a bit like a preboarded sideboard card, similar to stuff like Searing Blaze. While his floor is zero damage, his ceiling is hard to quantify, as often he does the most work not by dealing damage to our opponent, but by preventing them from winning before we can.
Lastly, there's just plan old burn spells, which are always an option over adding Devil. They will much more consistently deal their damage to the opponent, as the axis for interaction is smaller (counter spells and lifegain only). Devil should at least deal on average more damage then say, Shock or Searing Spear, to even be worthy of consideration. I propose that if we were to statistically record all of our games with Devil, we would find that in fact, he does not deal more damage then even those spells, which are not even good enough for Legacy Burn to begin with.
TL:DR Burn should be playing the best 40-1 spells available to it. Those are the spells with the best combination of average damage, goldfish speed, and consistency. Devil has problems at each one of those points. Normal play patterns and sequencing will often show Devil to be at best a +1 Lava Spike, but more often then not a complete blank. Furthermore, Devil has an adverse affect on the value of certain other cards in our deck. Playing Devil is a bit like adding an RNG card to your deck, because you have little control over what you get from him in games. -
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Seems that what everyone should do is just copy your list and that's it. You are in possession of the real and only truth, this starts to be overwhelming, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's tired of your manners.Posted in: Modern Archives - Established
You don't need to call "bad players" to other people that has been running this deck successfully with way different cards that the ones you are playing. For instance, the chilean player who got 1st in a 60+ people event playing with several cards that are rarely mentioned/included in lists here. Oh, even groundbreakers! But he's obviously very bad
I've been playing with narnam, and I could call you "bad" as well because it really sucks most of the time for the aim of this deck, IMO.
Stompy is not, and I think it will never be, a T1 deck, so don't expect superpros to come here. Hey, bad news, you are not a pro so please stop posting like that
What I was saying about fatal push/groundbreaker is simply that they will not expect a 6/1 haste when they are tapped out. Not just for fatal push, but also path to exile, dismember, etc... I was talking about fatal push just because it's the most popular removal spell right now, with the rise of Death's decks
I think it most depends on what your metagame is, and how you play, not how "good" you are.
Apologies everyone for the rant. And please excuse any typos/grammar errors, English is not my mother tongue
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Im to a point where I've tested all these new cards (without splashing colors and playing bad zoo) and its not working out so well. Only idea I have left is to test a playset of groundswell in the place of aspect of hydra in this list where I added energy elephants, narnam renegades and 8 fetches. Devotion is lower and I think wwe have more chances to hit landfall with fetches. Otherwise I'm going back to the old list.
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because of this new spoiled card, I'm finally buying a Mikokoro, center of the sea also. good ways for us to loot thru all those mountains and get to our key spells will also having mana available to pump ashling
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https://deckbox.org/sets/1017616
No so much budget but its def not a $1000 deck. One thing Ive learned about running ashling is that you really don't want to spend too much mana on other spells. you want to keep pumping her as much as possible. Everyone else at the table will leave you alone once they realize you have your finger on the blow everything up button. Sit back and watch others beat each other up. swing in at someone with poor defenses every now and then. I always mulligan into a mana doubler / hearthstone. I want to be able to have enough mana to blow the board up as early as turn 5. The notes on the deck there aren't current but it gives you a good idea how to play this mana hungry mama.
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For example Caged Sun & Gauntlet of Power could maybe be Heartstone & Mana Flare or Extraplanar lens (not exactly budget tho)
Other cards I would highly recommend that are still budget:
Opal Palace helps you regain some counters if Ashling keeps dyin.
Loxodon Warhammer the cheapest of all equipment that synergize well with Ashling. But theres a handful that go really well with Ashling. Also get a Godo, Bandit Warlord to tutor them up and onto the battlefield.
Warp World - Best way to board wipe Ive found. We never have much to lose. Deals with indestructible creatures we cant damage with Ashling and deals with pesky artifacts and enchantments
Chandra's Ignition & then blow up Ashling is the best way to win a game ever
you could also run Fork to either copy an opponents tutor spell since we don't have lots of good tutors in red or well... fork Chandra's Ignition
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would also be cool to see some sort of Sunforger on a stick living weapon commander.