Storm will be dead to the Hydra before it can combo off against the ramp player.
By saying this, you prove me that you never played storm... Turn 4 or 5 win easily in a lot of cases when built right. Which seems to be quicker than the best case scenario you're submitting with the Kalonian monster. In fact, Storm is the worst matchup ever for ramp and midrange. Almost a auto-lost in some case. On the draw, you'll be doing : T1 : Elvish Mystic, T2 : Arbor Elf + Sylvan Library, T3 : Kalonian Hydra ... and die. My group and I does have some videoshot that proove that point. Remplace Kalonian by Garruk, Primal Hunter instead, and that's a copy paste of what happened that time.
Also, I'm not talking about counter magic only, but the instant speed response and also sorcery as well that those kind of decks does have against it. And no, in fact, my prospective on the hydra is based on experience and not conjecture, sorry. Was bad in Standard, is a ok card in cube (depending on general power level of it), will never touch other format, even EDH... What that said, I'll quit this never-ending conversation to dunnot deviate the thread from his main purpose : Whisperwood Elemental.
Will be happy to discuss some more in another thread!
Almost any big creature is insane equip with the greaves, so that's not a factor that make him better at all.
And I still maintain that the ramp into Kalonian Hydra gameplan won't win you games against a lot of matchups fore sure :
1) Aggro are going to beat you before his second swing, even before the first sometime cause he finds himself to be a so bad blocker.
2) Control and Tempo are simply going to laught at it. Nothing more to add on this.
3) Combo, and particulary Storm, are going to combo off before it slaps twice as well. Those decks will have cheap tools most of the time to manage him out anyway.
The only deck I saw this dude succed at more than often is against other midrange strategy, and like I said midrange is kind of bad in cube without the proper cards... And the hydra is not one of them. If you don't feel that, it's because you haven't played in a fast and power environment enough. The only way it could be big is with Black Lotus, and that card is a mess and brokes cube synergy. With that said, this thread is about Whisperwood Elemental anyway.
I don't want to disrespect anyone, I'm new here and I'm just trying to bring my point. Power Cube and Normal Cube are very different and that's a key factor in what I'm trying to explain. For example, even Aetherling is bad a full powered environment, for being to slow and too much mana dependent.
I also ran both for a while and all I can say about it, like LucidVision just mentioned, is that a Wolfir Silverheart paired with any Flying/Shadow/Intimitade/DoubleStrike creature is a straight to post clock. The Soltari Monk and Priest are also insane with him as well, while both benefit from a good protection ability. In fact, this brings us to what I'm trying to explain in here : Wolfir Silverheart is a aggro card, only.
About Kalonian Hydra, he is kind of trap in the middle. He's not a enough quick finisher for real aggro deck and not a enough relevant evasive fatty for a midrange deck that want to competes in lots of different matchups. In a 8-man table, the hydra is going to win sometimes, most of the time against other midrange strategy (that I consider the badest archetype in power cube if not support by certain cards), but is certainly going to face decks that will totally broke him. In counterpart, the wolf, in the right deck (not talking about straight midrange), would provides wins more than often and do his job very well even against dudes that play sweepers, sorcery removal or even good ground blockers. In fact, even againt other aggro players or combo enablers.
Also, I'm not sure if you realise that the wolf doesn't open itself to 2 for 1 before it does attack himself, and that's only after he could provide addtional damage and value to the board, things that the hydra cannot do. That's the point I'm trying to bring here. But I have to agreed, and I'm according this point since the beginning, Kalonian Hydra is certainly the most powerful card if not handle. But this didn't make him the more cubeable.
And the point I was trying to bring to the table initially is that Kalonian Hydra has just been outclassed by the Whisperwood Elemental as well. A much more versatile, evavise and card advantage generating creature. Also, in my opinion, so much more fun to play with and against.
You cannot say Wolfir Silverheart is bad compare to Kalonian Hydra because he is weak to instant speed removal or unsummon stuff. In fact, the hydra is even worse at this level and provides 2 additionnal turns to your opponent to find a way to kill it. If not handle, the wolf provide immediate damage and the same body as the hydra, without the trample, on the next turn. To me, both cards are more like aggro monster anyway, and not the midrange ideal gameplan, but Wolfir Silverheart makes me feel a lot more safer when casted.
It's may be just my opinion, but it seems like Wizard of the Coast staff share the same thought as I do because Wolfir Silverheart has made the cut in their full power Holiday Cube while Kalonian Hydra hasn't. The reason why is value. Green needs value because while investing so much effort in some cards that only help to accelerate the game, this colour wants its spells to stack, fortify his situation or bring immediate change to the game when post on board. I'm not saying that Wolfir Silverheart does that perfectly, but it kind of does for a aggro/low-midrange deck that want to push quick damage. With it stacking up only the turn it comes in, a dork could became a threat and if let alive long-term, it could end games as easily as the hydra and in a safer way because you get value out of it before your opponent could do a thing.
To me, in a heavy power cube, there's nothing worst as a plan than ramp into a target like Kalonian Hydra and just get it killed. That's where Thragtusk pass before him (and Whisperwood Elemental as well in my opinion). Plus, while being a bad blocker as well, the hydra is not the kind of card that getting you ahead when you're down. I'm not saying it's a bad card just for that reason, but when a «as much powerful card» doesn't see any play in Standard, there's certainly a reason why. Thragtusk in counterpart was one of the most played magic card in the INN-RTR metagame (And the elemental is starting to see a lot of play as well).
To return to Whisperwood Elemental's ability, it doesn't need a full board to be that powerful. In fact, a simple Arbor Elf or Elvish Mystic will do the job and provide additional value to it. I agreed that he's more like a long-term strategy, but it is something green is and will always be good at. It also has some synergy with cards like Smokestack and Braids, Cabal Minion, thing that are always welcome by cube players.
But I trully respect and understand both of your opinion as well. Just can't buy it
Kalonian Hydra like I said is a hard aggro beater, but seems more like a one trick pony that dunnot bring value to the table if handle by opponent. Also, it doesn't fit well in ramp strategy, something that green likes pretty much. In counterpart, Whisperwood Elemental bring back your dorks to the board and bring additional value with his manifest ability.
About the hydra, it is nice that it can have some synergy with some stuff, like the Recruiter, Reveilark or even Exava Blood Witch if you have her, but this is not something that's make that card relevant by his own. For having testing both and hearing some more feedbacks about the elemental, he seems a lot more polyvalent. In counterpart, the hydra is not something that ramp-midrange really wants and he fits more in a aggro shell. But in a full powered environment, a aggro 5 drop that dunnot bring immediat value sometimes doesn't worth investment. He makes me feel more like a worst green equivalent of Baneslayer Angel, a card that I find really overrated in powered environment.
Condidering the power level of your cube environment is really important in what I'm trying to demonstrate. For example, the Holiday Cube doesn't have Kalonian Hydra and netheir does the Legacy's one.
Sure, but again, if your deck contains any tutoring effects at all, the Manifest activation can pull tools from your toolbox. It's not a crushing blow to the card's evaluation, but it's not completely irrelevant either.
The cards in cube that tutor for others are more than often, except for Imperial Seal, instant speed spells. Since the manifest card being put into battlefield at your end step, drawing tutoring cards is not suppose to be a problem. In fact, you could just wait your opponent's end step to tutor for it and draw it after your next upkeep.
But I agreed that for the Green Sun's Zenith thing (Reclamation Sage being manifest before searching for it), it could matters. Fortunately, those king of situations won't happen a lot a time. Other than that, Whisperwood Elemental ability is just pure value and what it manifest is just part of the game and won't affect it more than have the actual card at bottom of library instead. It could screw ETB effect of your manifest creature, yes, but you still have the 2/2 and it still provide card advantage this way. You would just draw something else instead. It's actually not worst than Sea Gate Oracle, that is actual a well played cube card, putting one of the two cards onto the bottom of your library.
Whit that said, let's see what I'm considering the top 6 best 5 drop green creatures in a full powered cube environment :
1) Deranged Hermit (Lot of possible combos and synergise with a lot of cards. Powerful on his own. Provide multiple bodies.)
2) Acidic Slime (Kill a lot of dangerous stuff. Versatile. Trade with almost anything. Pure 2 for 1.)
3) Thragtusk (Provide life. Replace itself by a 3/3 token. Could be abuse to gain a lot of value.)
... that's where it is not so clear, but let's see...
4) Whisperwood Elemental (6 power for 5 split in 2 body. Provide card advantage. Provide evasion for other creatures. Good against sweepers.)
5) Wolfir Silverheart (Aggressive 5 drop that provide 4 additional damage on the spot. 8/8 body for 5 in a deck that play enough creatures. Good aggro finisher.)
6) Genesis (Provide a lot a versatility in terms of recurring stuff, even by his own. Help reanimator theme. Good versus control. )
Vorapede could have take the 6th spot, depends on your cube environment, but in no way Kalonian Hydra could have... Looks like a overcost one trick pony aggro card to me. Titania is kind of great, but absolutely needs fetchlands or so to be valuable.
So for me, this new 5 drop definitely make the cut for the top 6, and even the top 4, of best green creature at this spot.
By saying this, you prove me that you never played storm... Turn 4 or 5 win easily in a lot of cases when built right. Which seems to be quicker than the best case scenario you're submitting with the Kalonian monster. In fact, Storm is the worst matchup ever for ramp and midrange. Almost a auto-lost in some case. On the draw, you'll be doing : T1 : Elvish Mystic, T2 : Arbor Elf + Sylvan Library, T3 : Kalonian Hydra ... and die. My group and I does have some videoshot that proove that point. Remplace Kalonian by Garruk, Primal Hunter instead, and that's a copy paste of what happened that time.
Also, I'm not talking about counter magic only, but the instant speed response and also sorcery as well that those kind of decks does have against it. And no, in fact, my prospective on the hydra is based on experience and not conjecture, sorry. Was bad in Standard, is a ok card in cube (depending on general power level of it), will never touch other format, even EDH... What that said, I'll quit this never-ending conversation to dunnot deviate the thread from his main purpose : Whisperwood Elemental.
Will be happy to discuss some more in another thread!
And I still maintain that the ramp into Kalonian Hydra gameplan won't win you games against a lot of matchups fore sure :
1) Aggro are going to beat you before his second swing, even before the first sometime cause he finds himself to be a so bad blocker.
2) Control and Tempo are simply going to laught at it. Nothing more to add on this.
3) Combo, and particulary Storm, are going to combo off before it slaps twice as well. Those decks will have cheap tools most of the time to manage him out anyway.
The only deck I saw this dude succed at more than often is against other midrange strategy, and like I said midrange is kind of bad in cube without the proper cards... And the hydra is not one of them. If you don't feel that, it's because you haven't played in a fast and power environment enough. The only way it could be big is with Black Lotus, and that card is a mess and brokes cube synergy. With that said, this thread is about Whisperwood Elemental anyway.
I don't want to disrespect anyone, I'm new here and I'm just trying to bring my point. Power Cube and Normal Cube are very different and that's a key factor in what I'm trying to explain. For example, even Aetherling is bad a full powered environment, for being to slow and too much mana dependent.
About Kalonian Hydra, he is kind of trap in the middle. He's not a enough quick finisher for real aggro deck and not a enough relevant evasive fatty for a midrange deck that want to competes in lots of different matchups. In a 8-man table, the hydra is going to win sometimes, most of the time against other midrange strategy (that I consider the badest archetype in power cube if not support by certain cards), but is certainly going to face decks that will totally broke him. In counterpart, the wolf, in the right deck (not talking about straight midrange), would provides wins more than often and do his job very well even against dudes that play sweepers, sorcery removal or even good ground blockers. In fact, even againt other aggro players or combo enablers.
Also, I'm not sure if you realise that the wolf doesn't open itself to 2 for 1 before it does attack himself, and that's only after he could provide addtional damage and value to the board, things that the hydra cannot do. That's the point I'm trying to bring here. But I have to agreed, and I'm according this point since the beginning, Kalonian Hydra is certainly the most powerful card if not handle. But this didn't make him the more cubeable.
And the point I was trying to bring to the table initially is that Kalonian Hydra has just been outclassed by the Whisperwood Elemental as well. A much more versatile, evavise and card advantage generating creature. Also, in my opinion, so much more fun to play with and against.
It's may be just my opinion, but it seems like Wizard of the Coast staff share the same thought as I do because Wolfir Silverheart has made the cut in their full power Holiday Cube while Kalonian Hydra hasn't. The reason why is value. Green needs value because while investing so much effort in some cards that only help to accelerate the game, this colour wants its spells to stack, fortify his situation or bring immediate change to the game when post on board. I'm not saying that Wolfir Silverheart does that perfectly, but it kind of does for a aggro/low-midrange deck that want to push quick damage. With it stacking up only the turn it comes in, a dork could became a threat and if let alive long-term, it could end games as easily as the hydra and in a safer way because you get value out of it before your opponent could do a thing.
To me, in a heavy power cube, there's nothing worst as a plan than ramp into a target like Kalonian Hydra and just get it killed. That's where Thragtusk pass before him (and Whisperwood Elemental as well in my opinion). Plus, while being a bad blocker as well, the hydra is not the kind of card that getting you ahead when you're down. I'm not saying it's a bad card just for that reason, but when a «as much powerful card» doesn't see any play in Standard, there's certainly a reason why. Thragtusk in counterpart was one of the most played magic card in the INN-RTR metagame (And the elemental is starting to see a lot of play as well).
To return to Whisperwood Elemental's ability, it doesn't need a full board to be that powerful. In fact, a simple Arbor Elf or Elvish Mystic will do the job and provide additional value to it. I agreed that he's more like a long-term strategy, but it is something green is and will always be good at. It also has some synergy with cards like Smokestack and Braids, Cabal Minion, thing that are always welcome by cube players.
But I trully respect and understand both of your opinion as well. Just can't buy it
About the hydra, it is nice that it can have some synergy with some stuff, like the Recruiter, Reveilark or even Exava Blood Witch if you have her, but this is not something that's make that card relevant by his own. For having testing both and hearing some more feedbacks about the elemental, he seems a lot more polyvalent. In counterpart, the hydra is not something that ramp-midrange really wants and he fits more in a aggro shell. But in a full powered environment, a aggro 5 drop that dunnot bring immediat value sometimes doesn't worth investment. He makes me feel more like a worst green equivalent of Baneslayer Angel, a card that I find really overrated in powered environment.
Condidering the power level of your cube environment is really important in what I'm trying to demonstrate. For example, the Holiday Cube doesn't have Kalonian Hydra and netheir does the Legacy's one.
Let's start by quoting this just to be clear about Whisperwood Elemental «downside» concerning tutors :
The cards in cube that tutor for others are more than often, except for Imperial Seal, instant speed spells. Since the manifest card being put into battlefield at your end step, drawing tutoring cards is not suppose to be a problem. In fact, you could just wait your opponent's end step to tutor for it and draw it after your next upkeep.
But I agreed that for the Green Sun's Zenith thing (Reclamation Sage being manifest before searching for it), it could matters. Fortunately, those king of situations won't happen a lot a time. Other than that, Whisperwood Elemental ability is just pure value and what it manifest is just part of the game and won't affect it more than have the actual card at bottom of library instead. It could screw ETB effect of your manifest creature, yes, but you still have the 2/2 and it still provide card advantage this way. You would just draw something else instead. It's actually not worst than Sea Gate Oracle, that is actual a well played cube card, putting one of the two cards onto the bottom of your library.
Whit that said, let's see what I'm considering the top 6 best 5 drop green creatures in a full powered cube environment :
1) Deranged Hermit (Lot of possible combos and synergise with a lot of cards. Powerful on his own. Provide multiple bodies.)
2) Acidic Slime (Kill a lot of dangerous stuff. Versatile. Trade with almost anything. Pure 2 for 1.)
3) Thragtusk (Provide life. Replace itself by a 3/3 token. Could be abuse to gain a lot of value.)
... that's where it is not so clear, but let's see...
4) Whisperwood Elemental (6 power for 5 split in 2 body. Provide card advantage. Provide evasion for other creatures. Good against sweepers.)
5) Wolfir Silverheart (Aggressive 5 drop that provide 4 additional damage on the spot. 8/8 body for 5 in a deck that play enough creatures. Good aggro finisher.)
6) Genesis (Provide a lot a versatility in terms of recurring stuff, even by his own. Help reanimator theme. Good versus control. )
Vorapede could have take the 6th spot, depends on your cube environment, but in no way Kalonian Hydra could have... Looks like a overcost one trick pony aggro card to me. Titania is kind of great, but absolutely needs fetchlands or so to be valuable.
So for me, this new 5 drop definitely make the cut for the top 6, and even the top 4, of best green creature at this spot.