How about the interaction with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver? Is it possible that we might see a competitive UBx Control deck emerge in modern? I certainly think there is some potential here.
Has anyone been trying out Sphinx's Tutelage in a sultai shell? Seems like Tutelage, Pact, and Ashiok could be a good combination.
They can certainly provide a strong synergy but Tutelage has probably found its strongest shell in the UR variant since it's fully committed to the mill plan. If you try and fit it into a Sultai shell you'll need to thin down on either interaction, threats or maybe a bit of both which doesn't play to the archetype's strength.
However, I can tell you that Pacts are great. I've been on them for about a month now and they work really well.
Unless you're going to GPs and PPTQs on a regular basis, I don't know why you would want to forsake an archetype you enjoy playing for Abzan (especially if your local meta is saturated with it). Everybody would rather win than lose and Abzan surely makes the task easier, but then you're running into the mirror more often than not and the game gets less interesting from there. It just sounds like you're overly frustrated with the match up. Try embracing it instead and view it as a good challenge to improve upon your decision making when you're playing control.
The guy at your LGS makes a fair point but in the end I guess it depends what you want out of the game. If winning is top priority then Abzan will serve you well indeed. Personally, I'd rather take more losses with a list that I enjoy playing because it makes the game more interesting. Moreover, a guy who ended up winning game day at my LGS with Jeskai Tempo made a great point: "People tend to overlook the practice that it takes to play a list optimally... every few weeks I'll see the same people with new decks hoping they'll do better because it's the list that recently won a big event". He's been on Jeskai since Khans and plays it extremely well.
In any event, I know this is the competitive forum so winning is at the forefront, but I just thought I'd share my .02.
Cheers
Unless you're playing Abzan, this has been a punishing standard for trying to master a single deck. I do agree that you need not play the best deck. I've never cast a Rhino this season and have no intentions of starting. It's just not the kind of deck I enjoy playing. I'll continue trying to win with blue cards, whether it be Jeskai or a control variant.
Yup, a player will surely reap greater benefits by mastering an Abzan variant rather than any other archetype but as you said, who wants to forego the sweet U?
In any event, I still think control vs. Abzan variants are pretty close match ups if both sides draw well.
Unless you're going to GPs and PPTQs on a regular basis, I don't know why you would want to forsake an archetype you enjoy playing for Abzan (especially if your local meta is saturated with it). Everybody would rather win than lose and Abzan surely makes the task easier, but then you're running into the mirror more often than not and the game gets less interesting from there. It just sounds like you're overly frustrated with the match up. Try embracing it instead and view it as a good challenge to improve upon your decision making when you're playing control.
The guy at your LGS makes a fair point but in the end I guess it depends what you want out of the game. If winning is top priority then Abzan will serve you well indeed. Personally, I'd rather take more losses with a list that I enjoy playing because it makes the game more interesting. Moreover, a guy who ended up winning game day at my LGS with Jeskai Tempo made a great point: "People tend to overlook the practice that it takes to play a list optimally... every few weeks I'll see the same people with new decks hoping they'll do better because it's the list that recently won a big event". He's been on Jeskai since Khans and plays it extremely well.
In any event, I know this is the competitive forum so winning is at the forefront, but I just thought I'd share my .02.
Cheers
My experience with Sultai is that it felt way too mid-range for me. I was tapped out a lot, the draws felt clunky, and the mana remains awful. I just don't have any feel for the play style, so maybe that is just my fault.
I'm right there with you. I played it on Sunday and absolutely hated it. Jace is awesome, but that's the only thing I really liked about the deck. I don't want to be tapping out multiple turns in a row to get these damn green creatures online.
I will second that. I played it a few times and had some mild success with it to my surprise because it was just full of clunk. Wayfinder seemed to hinder things more than help, and when I needed one it was never there. Den protector felt like it was just a win more most of the time and when it did help me when I was behind I felt like if I hadn't spend my early turns durdling around trying to do Sultai things I wouldn't have been behind in the first place. I think there is a good Sultai list out there somewhere, but it isn't a control shell.
Sultai is a good control archetype but it's definitely not a smooth sailing affair the way UB is. It's more of a grind and the land sequencing is of great importance. Every deck requires practice for a player to get a feel for, especially control shells.
What advantage have demonic pacts build agains other builds? I mean, i know the disavantages but what does it gives to the table to make it worth? wich pairings are good for the pact build? To be hones i love how flavourfull is demonic pact but im not sure about how good it is
I think alot of people see the "you lose the game" clause through a magnifying glass which scares them from trying out the Pacts. I was a little hesitant at first as well doubting that the benefits would outweigh the costs. The best way for you to find out is to try out a Pact build and by try I really mean practice. It's interesting to play with because your timing is put to the test but I believe it will become apparent once you've played with them enough how much of an inherent advantage they give you in the mid-game leading to the late game.
When you slam a Pact on turn 4 with a healthy life total the game progressively slips out of your opponent's hands. The combination of removal/lifegain/card draw/disruption over the next three turns all while leaving your mana open for extra removal/card draw/disruption or a threat is a pretty big leap. You're effectively playing 2 for 1s earlier than you usually would with a Pact free control list.
Again, give it a shot. Den Protector, Disperse and Sultai Charm all ensure that you're in good shape to play a Pact at almost anytime.
It has a great match up against the new UR Mill that Majors rode to a 1st place finish in San Diego. Game one is extremely difficult for them since they have no counters to protect Tutelage and I tend to use Disperse on it as well once they tap for a draw spell - it's a nice tempo play.
Red Aggro is still difficult albeit more manageable due to the life gain offered by the Pacts. Post board you have the common strategy of Tasigur and Feed the Clan. A list such as this one is arguably the most well equipped a control deck can be versus Red and other aggro decks in general for the time being. I removed my Ashioks from the 75 to help improve these MUs.
The Demonic Pact/Disperse package has been great so far. You never really have to worry about losing to your own Pacts since you also have Den Pros, a couple Jaces, the Charms and Silumgar's Command. The list has the resiliency of Abzan along with a great card advantage engine. The omission of counterspells in the main was necessary and probably for the best.
I'm pretty sure in UB even post side RDW is still a bad match up but Sultai it's favored our way post side by a decent bit.
Feed the Clan certainly steals games from them but it isn't overwhelming for certain red lists. If your opponent has an arsenal of burn in his sideboard, games 2 and 3 can go either way depending on the draws.
I had an opponent cast 3 Feed the Clans on me yesterday for a total gain of 20 life and I still brought him down to 4 (some Chandra flipping involved). It's important to shorten the clock with the likes of Gaea's Revenge in this MU because the amount of burn that I have in my list for instance largely outnumbers the amount of life gain our Sultai lists have.
All this being said, we're as well equipped as we can be with G for red aggro and the wins are not out of reach post sb as some of you have experienced.
Monored almost seems entirely dependant on drawing drown in sorrow and/or bile blight early. I don't know any other way to access the matchup right now. I'm on sultai right now, so the god draw of satyr wayfinder and tasigur is a possiblity, but outside of that I'm in the same boat still.
You have to watch out because mono-red can also burn you out post-sb pretty swiftly depending on what type of list you run into. I've been playing a Thopter Aggro list since everything was spoiled that can do just that going into games 2 and 3. If you're not Sultai (Feed the Clans + Tasigur) post sb, I am coasting through the control MU. This is part of the reason I decided to sleeve up Sultai for this standard; red+artifacts (read: shrapnel blasts + hangarback walkers) have a lot of fire power right now. Maybe this will be showcased at the PT.
You have to shorten the clock considerably against lists like these by bringing not only your 3 Feeds and 2 Tas, but a Gaea's Revenge or 2 as well. I don't know if people have caught on to this red/artifact sub theme yet or if they're just fixated on the more obvious UR iteration but control players be advised if it picks up.
Boarding in your negates would be a start if you're not playing with green. If you're still Esper, 4 Foul-Tongues post-sb and a proactive game plan. The thing is though, Exquisite Firecrafts will deal with the Ojutais with 2 burn spells in the grave so be wary of that.
I would like to have some life gain in the 75 some where other than garruk, getting burned out quite possible. Not enough creatures for my go to of feed the clan.orbs of warding maybe?
4th downfall in board for the GR devotion match up Xenegos being the main issue, it could be a silumgar's command giving me a better sb option against the decks where my mb removal is bad. turbo fog, burn and 5C Rally
The first thing I would do is to add a set of Satyr Wayfinders and drop the 26th land - although I do see that you're not heavily invested in the delve plan with only 2 Digs and no Treasure Cruise. Is there a reason for this? You'll find that casting Digs on turns 3 or 4 very beneficial. If you want to further add to the synergy try out a couple of new Jaces. You'll be able to flip them early with the Wayfinders and snap back removal that was milled. This has been quite powerful in testing for me.
Your best bet for some life gain is still Feed the Clan. I would add 2 in the SB even though you're worried about not getting the bonus alongside Tasigur; the 5 life can win you games as well. Additionally, you can try out some fog cards such as Winds of Qal Sisma in the SB. They play well with a follow up Drown in Sorrow or Languish. Speaking of Drown in Sorrow, is your meta thin on aggro? If not I would definitely include 2-3 copies in the board.
Good to see somebody else giving the new Nissa a whirl in this type of shell by the way. I also have her as a 1 of for some late game push.
@Gorregasm: You're on the right track, I think. It feels very midrangey but value PWs is how you're going to take down abzan.
Ugin is very very good with the Den Protector/Deathmist Raptor engine since you can just return your raptors face down. A lot of people complain that Ugin's downtick can't hit facedown raptors but if you play them yourself you can mitigate it.
Interesting list. Do you ever find yourself wanting more removal?
Has anyone considered UB Artifacts with Hangarback Walker and the new artifact draw spell---like Hoogland's list from the last standard event, but with black.
We get Languish and discard as well.
I was thinking about it just yesterday. I got my Hangarbacks on the low for a red aggro/burn shell but I might look into fitting them in control as well. For now I'll stick with Sultai but I do think a Hoogland type list has potential.
They can certainly provide a strong synergy but Tutelage has probably found its strongest shell in the UR variant since it's fully committed to the mill plan. If you try and fit it into a Sultai shell you'll need to thin down on either interaction, threats or maybe a bit of both which doesn't play to the archetype's strength.
However, I can tell you that Pacts are great. I've been on them for about a month now and they work really well.
Yup, a player will surely reap greater benefits by mastering an Abzan variant rather than any other archetype but as you said, who wants to forego the sweet U?
In any event, I still think control vs. Abzan variants are pretty close match ups if both sides draw well.
The guy at your LGS makes a fair point but in the end I guess it depends what you want out of the game. If winning is top priority then Abzan will serve you well indeed. Personally, I'd rather take more losses with a list that I enjoy playing because it makes the game more interesting. Moreover, a guy who ended up winning game day at my LGS with Jeskai Tempo made a great point: "People tend to overlook the practice that it takes to play a list optimally... every few weeks I'll see the same people with new decks hoping they'll do better because it's the list that recently won a big event". He's been on Jeskai since Khans and plays it extremely well.
In any event, I know this is the competitive forum so winning is at the forefront, but I just thought I'd share my .02.
Cheers
Sultai is a good control archetype but it's definitely not a smooth sailing affair the way UB is. It's more of a grind and the land sequencing is of great importance. Every deck requires practice for a player to get a feel for, especially control shells.
I think alot of people see the "you lose the game" clause through a magnifying glass which scares them from trying out the Pacts. I was a little hesitant at first as well doubting that the benefits would outweigh the costs. The best way for you to find out is to try out a Pact build and by try I really mean practice. It's interesting to play with because your timing is put to the test but I believe it will become apparent once you've played with them enough how much of an inherent advantage they give you in the mid-game leading to the late game.
When you slam a Pact on turn 4 with a healthy life total the game progressively slips out of your opponent's hands. The combination of removal/lifegain/card draw/disruption over the next three turns all while leaving your mana open for extra removal/card draw/disruption or a threat is a pretty big leap. You're effectively playing 2 for 1s earlier than you usually would with a Pact free control list.
Again, give it a shot. Den Protector, Disperse and Sultai Charm all ensure that you're in good shape to play a Pact at almost anytime.
Besides that I think Ojutai's Command is a good call right now. I think I would do -1 Jace, -1 Dissolve for +2 lands.
It has a great match up against the new UR Mill that Majors rode to a 1st place finish in San Diego. Game one is extremely difficult for them since they have no counters to protect Tutelage and I tend to use Disperse on it as well once they tap for a draw spell - it's a nice tempo play.
Red Aggro is still difficult albeit more manageable due to the life gain offered by the Pacts. Post board you have the common strategy of Tasigur and Feed the Clan. A list such as this one is arguably the most well equipped a control deck can be versus Red and other aggro decks in general for the time being. I removed my Ashioks from the 75 to help improve these MUs.
The Demonic Pact/Disperse package has been great so far. You never really have to worry about losing to your own Pacts since you also have Den Pros, a couple Jaces, the Charms and Silumgar's Command. The list has the resiliency of Abzan along with a great card advantage engine. The omission of counterspells in the main was necessary and probably for the best.
Feed the Clan certainly steals games from them but it isn't overwhelming for certain red lists. If your opponent has an arsenal of burn in his sideboard, games 2 and 3 can go either way depending on the draws.
I had an opponent cast 3 Feed the Clans on me yesterday for a total gain of 20 life and I still brought him down to 4 (some Chandra flipping involved). It's important to shorten the clock with the likes of Gaea's Revenge in this MU because the amount of burn that I have in my list for instance largely outnumbers the amount of life gain our Sultai lists have.
All this being said, we're as well equipped as we can be with G for red aggro and the wins are not out of reach post sb as some of you have experienced.
You have to watch out because mono-red can also burn you out post-sb pretty swiftly depending on what type of list you run into. I've been playing a Thopter Aggro list since everything was spoiled that can do just that going into games 2 and 3. If you're not Sultai (Feed the Clans + Tasigur) post sb, I am coasting through the control MU. This is part of the reason I decided to sleeve up Sultai for this standard; red+artifacts (read: shrapnel blasts + hangarback walkers) have a lot of fire power right now. Maybe this will be showcased at the PT.
You have to shorten the clock considerably against lists like these by bringing not only your 3 Feeds and 2 Tas, but a Gaea's Revenge or 2 as well. I don't know if people have caught on to this red/artifact sub theme yet or if they're just fixated on the more obvious UR iteration but control players be advised if it picks up.
Boarding in your negates would be a start if you're not playing with green. If you're still Esper, 4 Foul-Tongues post-sb and a proactive game plan. The thing is though, Exquisite Firecrafts will deal with the Ojutais with 2 burn spells in the grave so be wary of that.
The first thing I would do is to add a set of Satyr Wayfinders and drop the 26th land - although I do see that you're not heavily invested in the delve plan with only 2 Digs and no Treasure Cruise. Is there a reason for this? You'll find that casting Digs on turns 3 or 4 very beneficial. If you want to further add to the synergy try out a couple of new Jaces. You'll be able to flip them early with the Wayfinders and snap back removal that was milled. This has been quite powerful in testing for me.
Your best bet for some life gain is still Feed the Clan. I would add 2 in the SB even though you're worried about not getting the bonus alongside Tasigur; the 5 life can win you games as well. Additionally, you can try out some fog cards such as Winds of Qal Sisma in the SB. They play well with a follow up Drown in Sorrow or Languish. Speaking of Drown in Sorrow, is your meta thin on aggro? If not I would definitely include 2-3 copies in the board.
Good to see somebody else giving the new Nissa a whirl in this type of shell by the way. I also have her as a 1 of for some late game push.
My list is below in the signature .
Interesting list. Do you ever find yourself wanting more removal?
I was thinking about it just yesterday. I got my Hangarbacks on the low for a red aggro/burn shell but I might look into fitting them in control as well. For now I'll stick with Sultai but I do think a Hoogland type list has potential.