Everything you just said is 100% correct in that we collectively need to remain respect and thus I will apologize for being insultive.
At this point I agree to disagree about the core of our discussion, but continue to agree that this card is an automatic 4 of now going forward in Modern.
So guys, you really consider the skewer to be a card in the "core cards" 4of in the main deck of RW/g burn ?
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
I do think it's likely going to prove it is good enough to be a core card. I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often.
I will give it some play on cockatrice when I can. I'll try to specifically detail instances of using Skewer and instances when it was bad (times it uncastable, for instance), be and average cmc, cast turn, etc.
Wow coming back to this thread I knew there would be talk about the 2 new toys, but man is some of this is hilarious.
First off in NO way is Skewer remotely on the power level of Chain Lighting. Chain Lightning is ALWAYS 1 CMC under normal circumstances. It is more closer to Rift Bolt with Skewer getting an edge over it in some situations (mainly casting multiple burn spells in a turn without the delay associated with Rift Bolt). Rift Bolt gets the edge on turn 1 because you can't even cast Skewer on T1 (which you can at least suspend a Rift Bolt), and it also works better with Swiftspear coming off of suspend.
Skewer is however an auto include for any version of Modern burn.
I am on the verge of confidently stating that Rakdos is better than Boros. Rakdos has always been the faster deck but Boros was more of a resilient deck. Rakdos now only lacks enchantment hate which most Boros deck splash green for Destructive Revelry which should now be replaced by the new card Cinder Lash anyways. For the statements about Rakdos not having a sideboard that is absurd. Black brings Push to the table, but you can go Jund and play Assassin's Trophy to remove really the 2 most difficult things to deal with in Firewalker and Leyline with 1 card. This helps a ton when dealing with limited sideboard slots. Rain of Gore, Trophy, and Relic or Cage is really all you need.
Back to Cinder Lash for a moment. It is a touch slower than Revelry for sure, but overall it is a better card than Revelry for multiple reasons.
1. CS is better in multiples as you may not have additional targets for the other drawn copies of DR where as the static ability just stacks and thus will help close out the game.
2. CS gets utility even if they don't see their sb card.
3. CS's 1st ability is only for opponents and gets around Leyline since it doesn't target.
4. CS frees up having to hold up 2 Mana.
5. CS is proactive instead of reactive which is what burn prefers to do in general.
are we really that hungry for more 3 drops? between 8 rains, 4 trackers and some of us are running voices and coursers, i think there are plenty.
I was looking at another aspect of the deck which our BBE doesn't play well with: the dorks.
They're so important on turns 1 and 2... and afterward we're not too hot on seeing them, or cascading into them. Side issue: 60% of them die to bolts and pushes.
I've been thinking of solving this problem by changing up 2 birds for Simian Spirit Guide.
Pros:
It enables 4 mana on turn 2 a lot more consistently. Arbor/Sprawl + guide in any combination will let you BBE or Acid-moss on turn 2.
It also makes the turn 2 blood moon/rain far more reliable, since they can't interact with it outside of discard.
When hit by BBE, its a 2/2 body.
Cons:
While it ignores removal in the early turns, the mana ramp is not repeatable.
For all its worth, 2/2 non-flying isn't the bee's knees. Still beats arbor elf or birds in terms of offensive power tho.
You forgot to mention 4 Moons which means typical lists play at least 14 3CMC spells if not more.
The SSG debate has been around from time to time in here but in short the answer is not worth it. It sounds good in theory but in actual testing most people find out that it isn’t great because not having the consistent mana source you can just stumble even more often. Example: you have 2 lands and a SSG with no other lands sure you can cast the Moon but then you are at 2 mana for your next turn and if you don’t hit your land in the next 2 turns you allow your opponent to climb back into the game. Now I can almost already hear your response saying well if the opponent bolts the bird or elf you are in the same boat. I will agree that is 100% true but not every game does your opponent have the removal spell. If they did this deck wouldn’t exist.
So let’s look at T3 in 2 land and a dork vs 2 land and a SSG. If dork lives you can play at least any 3 mana or less spell without drawing a land. If SSG is used then you are limited to 1-2 CMC spells (which some people do run a 1 of Scooze in the main now) if you don’t top deck a land.
But hey don’t take my word for it! I encourage you to do your own testing and to report back your findings.
For those unsure about the burn matchup (I switched from burn to play Ponza but I still play it about 25% of the time in Modern and 100% of the time in Legacy) Blood Moon isn’t that great. You can keep in the other Rain effects because Trinisphere is your friend here along with your life gain package.
Courser alone is a house against burn as the incremental life gain burn can’t deal with very well. Also never block with Courser unless you are facing down lethal as they can then just bolt or blaze it.
Kitchen Finks is also very good because of it having 2 triggers of life gain due to having persist and this one you always block with.
If you have played any of the other life gain thing above Thragtusk, Primal Command, or Wurmcoil have the potential to put the game out of reach for them but this is a situation where you are forcing them to have the Skullcrack or they lose.
As for what to on the lookout for Deflecting Palm can wreck you so trying to hit with a big finisher might not be wise.
Lastly any sweepers are good here as all of there guys are pretty small. Burn tries to stick creatures early to provide them with consistent damage.
Hopefully this helps.
You are 100% right about firespout being a nonbo in the board with BBE. It should have been the 3rd Slagstorm. Thank you for reminding me to make the swap.
I bought 3 with every intention of taking out the firespout as I ran 3 of those in the board prior to the unban.
So it is now time to make a report. Been play testing a good amount since the unban and have moved some cards around a few times due to the hits with BBE. While I haven’t done like some and actually log it on a spreadsheet I will just provide my anecdotal evidence and experience.
First is BBE is the best card some times but we need to not just play fast and loose with her, meaning the crap shoot isn’t always the best option depending on board state and hand. Unfortunately I have hit Elf and Sprawl more times than I would like but sometimes it does help the plan move along.
I think not playing Acid Moss should take out ALL 6 drops period. When I built my list that was part of my hypothesis and it is the correct line. I have ended more games with only access to 5 mana and thus I am very confident we don’t need the 6 drops anymore (people are getting better at playing cards to stop the ramp ie spreading seas the sprawled land or simply bolt or pushing the elf).
I will post current list below (sorry no link as I am using my phone to post):
Sideboard (15)
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Abrade
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Beast Within
1 Firespout
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Some things of note. Slagstorm is the real deal. The interaction between it and BBE is absolutely absurd. If no creatures on board the opponent takes 6 much like they would if you hit a Bolt (which is what some list are running instead in this slot), if they have a board you wipe it and still do 3 damage with BBE. Yes it isn’t instant speed but I haven’t had an issue with that thus far. Also I have wrecked Jace and Lilliana decks with the redirect as well.
Before I was on 7 LD spells and initially I went to 6 (only played 2 Molten Rain instead of 3) as I was scared of not being able to hit 2 red on turn 2 especially since I don’t run birds but I haven’t had any issues and went up to 3.
I thought putting Kitchen Finks in the main was going to be great to cascade into. I was unimpressed to say the least so it went back to the board.
At this point if you aren’t running Hazoret you are probably wrong. This card is seeing play in Legacy now as well in the “Dragon Stompy” decks.
Nissa has also been really impressive in just setting up the early game.
Last night I went 4-0:
Skred Red (2-0): Opponent couldn’t handle T2 Chandra G1. G2 BBE into Slagstorm took care of his only threat of Chandra and he flooded out the rest of the game.
Jeskai Control (1-0): G1 T2 Moon, he scoops the turn after and says doesn’t want to play tilted for the rest of the night and just gives me it 2-0.
Affinity (2-1): G1 goes like you would expect and I get steam rolled. G2 I saw my 1 of sideboard card in firespout to wipe his board of Skurge, Memnite, and Overseer with 1 counter on each. I hit Thragtusk to stabilize and won from Hazoret and Tusk beats. G3 saw Slagstorm and fought though a Etched Champion because he swong and I was able to topdeck a Hazoret to close it out. In the 2 last games only saw 1 sideboard card. Hard fought matchup for sure.
Affinity (2-1) same verse as the last: Honestly these games were easier as I saw multiple sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. Beast within his Plating felt so good and having an Abrade along with Grudge in the yard from Turn 1 Thoughtseize meant my T2 was able to take out both Skruge and Pest.
Ponza #1 seed going into the top 8 of SCG Dallas! Boom Baby!!!! Three decks made day 2 as well. That's probably a decent chunk of the day 1 Ponza players. We should start seeing bigger numbers the more it's played.
Update is Ponza won against some of it’s worst matchups in Infect and Storm.
Just fyi, Damping Sphere should not impact Utopia Sprawl. It is a triggered ability that does not use the stack, it does not make the land itself tap for more mana.
Man I am completely wrong and apologize for any confusion.
Birds of Paradise is now gone. Even if you didn’t like all the stats and theory crafting before BBE just makes there literally no argument to run it. BBE into BOP is laughable! I think instead of the 1 Garruk we can run 1 Nissa. And the Huntmaster slots that were used are now BBE. I’m still working on a list but there are some obvious changes that need to be made such as the removal of Beast Within. That card is the only thing I can think of that would be worse than BOP and I enjoyed it before because it was so flexible.
Once I have done more play testing I will post what I have found is a solid list.
Moonbreaker just for you I went ahead and did those. Here is the breakdown after choosing 3 different configurations (the suggested change of 8 Ramp and 22 Lands, the most common ran of 9 Ramp and 21 Lands, and the highest chance of attaining the desired outcome using 10 Ramp and 22 Lands):
Scenario 1: 1 Ramp and 1 Land after mulling down to 6.
8 Ramp & 22 Lands = 54%
9 Ramp & 21 Lands = 57%
10 Ramp & 22 Lands = 62%
So there is a slight increase in the difference from the suggested adjustment to the common build which was 2% to now 3% which still means not significant enough to me. Even the highest chance to attain the probability was still less than 10% difference.
Scenario 2: 1 Ramp and 1 Land on the draw.
8 R & 22 L = 69%
9 R & 21 L = 72%
10 R & 22 L = 77%
Literally the exact same separation from the 1st scenario (ie 3% and 8% from the suggested change)
Scenario 3: 2 Ramp and 1 Land (this should in theory be the best argument for more Ramp cards as there are more desired Ramp cards for this situation.)
8 R & 22 L = 21%
9 R & 21 L = 25%
10 R & 22 L = 30%
This is where I will rest my case. The most common build gains 1 more percent to put it at a whopping 4% difference. Even in the scenario which should give more ramp cards the best outcome and highest probability of the desire result is still less than 10%.
If it was over 10% then sure there is a valid argument to be made but the swap from 1 BOP to 1 Land is indeed negligible.
1
At this point I agree to disagree about the core of our discussion, but continue to agree that this card is an automatic 4 of now going forward in Modern.
1
Wow coming back to this thread I knew there would be talk about the 2 new toys, but man is some of this is hilarious.
First off in NO way is Skewer remotely on the power level of Chain Lighting. Chain Lightning is ALWAYS 1 CMC under normal circumstances. It is more closer to Rift Bolt with Skewer getting an edge over it in some situations (mainly casting multiple burn spells in a turn without the delay associated with Rift Bolt). Rift Bolt gets the edge on turn 1 because you can't even cast Skewer on T1 (which you can at least suspend a Rift Bolt), and it also works better with Swiftspear coming off of suspend.
Skewer is however an auto include for any version of Modern burn.
I am on the verge of confidently stating that Rakdos is better than Boros. Rakdos has always been the faster deck but Boros was more of a resilient deck. Rakdos now only lacks enchantment hate which most Boros deck splash green for Destructive Revelry which should now be replaced by the new card Cinder Lash anyways. For the statements about Rakdos not having a sideboard that is absurd. Black brings Push to the table, but you can go Jund and play Assassin's Trophy to remove really the 2 most difficult things to deal with in Firewalker and Leyline with 1 card. This helps a ton when dealing with limited sideboard slots. Rain of Gore, Trophy, and Relic or Cage is really all you need.
Back to Cinder Lash for a moment. It is a touch slower than Revelry for sure, but overall it is a better card than Revelry for multiple reasons.
1. CS is better in multiples as you may not have additional targets for the other drawn copies of DR where as the static ability just stacks and thus will help close out the game.
2. CS gets utility even if they don't see their sb card.
3. CS's 1st ability is only for opponents and gets around Leyline since it doesn't target.
4. CS frees up having to hold up 2 Mana.
5. CS is proactive instead of reactive which is what burn prefers to do in general.
1
You forgot to mention 4 Moons which means typical lists play at least 14 3CMC spells if not more.
The SSG debate has been around from time to time in here but in short the answer is not worth it. It sounds good in theory but in actual testing most people find out that it isn’t great because not having the consistent mana source you can just stumble even more often. Example: you have 2 lands and a SSG with no other lands sure you can cast the Moon but then you are at 2 mana for your next turn and if you don’t hit your land in the next 2 turns you allow your opponent to climb back into the game. Now I can almost already hear your response saying well if the opponent bolts the bird or elf you are in the same boat. I will agree that is 100% true but not every game does your opponent have the removal spell. If they did this deck wouldn’t exist.
So let’s look at T3 in 2 land and a dork vs 2 land and a SSG. If dork lives you can play at least any 3 mana or less spell without drawing a land. If SSG is used then you are limited to 1-2 CMC spells (which some people do run a 1 of Scooze in the main now) if you don’t top deck a land.
But hey don’t take my word for it! I encourage you to do your own testing and to report back your findings.
2
Courser alone is a house against burn as the incremental life gain burn can’t deal with very well. Also never block with Courser unless you are facing down lethal as they can then just bolt or blaze it.
Kitchen Finks is also very good because of it having 2 triggers of life gain due to having persist and this one you always block with.
If you have played any of the other life gain thing above Thragtusk, Primal Command, or Wurmcoil have the potential to put the game out of reach for them but this is a situation where you are forcing them to have the Skullcrack or they lose.
As for what to on the lookout for Deflecting Palm can wreck you so trying to hit with a big finisher might not be wise.
Lastly any sweepers are good here as all of there guys are pretty small. Burn tries to stick creatures early to provide them with consistent damage.
Hopefully this helps.
1
I bought 3 with every intention of taking out the firespout as I ran 3 of those in the board prior to the unban.
1
First is BBE is the best card some times but we need to not just play fast and loose with her, meaning the crap shoot isn’t always the best option depending on board state and hand. Unfortunately I have hit Elf and Sprawl more times than I would like but sometimes it does help the plan move along.
I think not playing Acid Moss should take out ALL 6 drops period. When I built my list that was part of my hypothesis and it is the correct line. I have ended more games with only access to 5 mana and thus I am very confident we don’t need the 6 drops anymore (people are getting better at playing cards to stop the ramp ie spreading seas the sprawled land or simply bolt or pushing the elf).
I will post current list below (sorry no link as I am using my phone to post):
Ponza with BBE:
Maindeck (60)
4 Arbor Elf
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Thragtusk
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Molten Rain
1 Primal Command
2 Slagstorm
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
1 Cinder Glade
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Abrade
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Beast Within
1 Firespout
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Some things of note. Slagstorm is the real deal. The interaction between it and BBE is absolutely absurd. If no creatures on board the opponent takes 6 much like they would if you hit a Bolt (which is what some list are running instead in this slot), if they have a board you wipe it and still do 3 damage with BBE. Yes it isn’t instant speed but I haven’t had an issue with that thus far. Also I have wrecked Jace and Lilliana decks with the redirect as well.
Before I was on 7 LD spells and initially I went to 6 (only played 2 Molten Rain instead of 3) as I was scared of not being able to hit 2 red on turn 2 especially since I don’t run birds but I haven’t had any issues and went up to 3.
I thought putting Kitchen Finks in the main was going to be great to cascade into. I was unimpressed to say the least so it went back to the board.
At this point if you aren’t running Hazoret you are probably wrong. This card is seeing play in Legacy now as well in the “Dragon Stompy” decks.
Nissa has also been really impressive in just setting up the early game.
Last night I went 4-0:
Skred Red (2-0): Opponent couldn’t handle T2 Chandra G1. G2 BBE into Slagstorm took care of his only threat of Chandra and he flooded out the rest of the game.
Jeskai Control (1-0): G1 T2 Moon, he scoops the turn after and says doesn’t want to play tilted for the rest of the night and just gives me it 2-0.
Affinity (2-1): G1 goes like you would expect and I get steam rolled. G2 I saw my 1 of sideboard card in firespout to wipe his board of Skurge, Memnite, and Overseer with 1 counter on each. I hit Thragtusk to stabilize and won from Hazoret and Tusk beats. G3 saw Slagstorm and fought though a Etched Champion because he swong and I was able to topdeck a Hazoret to close it out. In the 2 last games only saw 1 sideboard card. Hard fought matchup for sure.
Affinity (2-1) same verse as the last: Honestly these games were easier as I saw multiple sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. Beast within his Plating felt so good and having an Abrade along with Grudge in the yard from Turn 1 Thoughtseize meant my T2 was able to take out both Skruge and Pest.
1
Update is Ponza won against some of it’s worst matchups in Infect and Storm.
1
Man I am completely wrong and apologize for any confusion.
1
Once I have done more play testing I will post what I have found is a solid list.
1
Scenario 1: 1 Ramp and 1 Land after mulling down to 6.
8 Ramp & 22 Lands = 54%
9 Ramp & 21 Lands = 57%
10 Ramp & 22 Lands = 62%
So there is a slight increase in the difference from the suggested adjustment to the common build which was 2% to now 3% which still means not significant enough to me. Even the highest chance to attain the probability was still less than 10% difference.
Scenario 2: 1 Ramp and 1 Land on the draw.
8 R & 22 L = 69%
9 R & 21 L = 72%
10 R & 22 L = 77%
Literally the exact same separation from the 1st scenario (ie 3% and 8% from the suggested change)
Scenario 3: 2 Ramp and 1 Land (this should in theory be the best argument for more Ramp cards as there are more desired Ramp cards for this situation.)
8 R & 22 L = 21%
9 R & 21 L = 25%
10 R & 22 L = 30%
This is where I will rest my case. The most common build gains 1 more percent to put it at a whopping 4% difference. Even in the scenario which should give more ramp cards the best outcome and highest probability of the desire result is still less than 10%.
If it was over 10% then sure there is a valid argument to be made but the swap from 1 BOP to 1 Land is indeed negligible.