MTG Salvation

Quote from Thenarus »

Quote from Niallplaysmagic »

Shot called.

*high fives*

Like many, I'm excited for the possibilities here. 250 new (to Modern) cards designed or chosen specifically for the format? Can't wait to see the full spoiler for this set.

Also like many, I'm blown away by no reprints of existing Modern cards in dire need of a supply injection; looks like they are banking at the novelty and equity of newer cards to drive the set sales (and they're probably right).

If I had to guess, my instinct is that another supplemental product will release in the Nov-Dec window that contains some number of choice reprints (but isn't an actual Masters set). Wizards knows that printing cards like the enemy fetches will make them money and players happy, plus they need to make up that end-of-year revenue occupied by Masters sets for the past two years.

Me...I'm just excited for old things and call-backs, and especially to not be envious of so many fun cards bypassing my favorite format for a change.

Agree with all of this. I don't have the option to play modern anymore (time commitments, sigh), but watching the format evolve is going to be a ton of fun.

Oh my goodness. This is going to be nuts.

Shot called.

KCI is currently the most busted thing. Banning it only allows the new most busted thing to take it's place. It will 'rotate' like this forever, and that's why modern gets so exhausting because you constantly have to prune back the branches of decks like this and the most innocuous cards are capable of breaking a deck in half - Cathartic Reunion, Opt, Ichor Wellspring, etc.

I don't play Jund. I don't care if Jund is good. I'm simply willing to admit that the play patterns available in this format (crushingly controlling OR ridiculously fast/punishing aggro/combo) aren't leading to satisfying gameplay. If you're here for EV or to scratch your desire to cheat on mana costs or miracle people out of games, then so be it. But there are a spectrum of reasons as to why people play this game and this format. Myself and a VERY large group of people want to play cards that were favorites for us from standards past. Desiring for the format to at least be non-hostile to that isn't outrageous. The point of *any* magic format and this game as a whole is to be fun and to serve the desires of the base of players willing to invest their time into it. Desiring changes in the modern format is no more frivolous than simply playing modern itself.

Quote from idSurge »

Oh and people are not paying attention (or dont care about fair decks, which is fine) if they are not aware of this. Terminus is more than any other card or deck in the format, going to prevent fair creature based decks from ever seeing real play again.

Yep. An instant speed bottom of the library wrath that costs almost nothing and is now much easier to set up is both required for control to thrive and completely damaging to any other fair deck. I know control is supposed to best fair midrange decks, but it's like robbing a liquor store with a rocket launcher. This leads to the ultimate thought that possibly this format has reached it's diversity limits. All of these decks cannot coexist, there is no balance point, and as long as Terminus is on one end and wildly fast and consistent combo/aggro (this is almost just one classification at this point) is on the other then where is this format actually going? Is anyone satisfied at this point? I've sold all of my modern staples both in anticipation of a new non-rotating format and because I just don't enjoy the gameplay. Playing against stirrings decks isn't fun. Playing against some variation of a graveyard recursive aggro deck isn't fun. I like interacting, I like playing chess with my opponent, and I've had to come to terms that this format just isn't for me anymore.

At least games against twin were fun. Turn one stirrings feels worse than almost anything I ever felt against twin.

Quote from drmarkb »

Standard is broken from every perspective, nothing will save it. The whole mtg ecosystem is set up to disseminate information so fast that the only way to have a balanced ecosystem is one where every resource can be attacked- hands (discard) Lands (landkill) spell costs (3 sphere type cards), activated abilities (supp field), libraries (mill and cap effects) creatures in play (wraiths) , etb creatures yet to be cast (humility), bins, critters, planeswalkers etc. They will never do that because every resource being a target frustrates newbies (as well as some who should know better), meaning in reality combat and creatures the gathering is all they will promote in Standard, whilst attempting to lure in players with the mentality of 14 year olds who expect instant gratification in games with zero frustration.

In reality Modern has been made with a number of super powerful cards like Snappy, Vial, Thought seize etc. that are not shared fairly in all colours, leaving a very skewed color pie where counters are weaker than they should be, discard is strong, creatures have to be front loaded, and landkill is short on punishing the greedy due to no wastelands.
The only way they will make progress on Std or Modern is to get rid of the "our data says players like x" approach. Such an approach leads to what we have seen in standard. It is this approach that stops them running cards like Thoughtseize through Standard. Until they understand that many of the people they canvass won't play Standard whatever, or that many will quit soon regardless, they won't get usable data.

The biggest opponents of cards like Thoughtseize are the pros who have to slog through standard seasons with it. The overwhelming sentiment from nearly every pro I saw when Theros rotated out went something like 'Thank GOD we don't have to think about Thoughtseize every game any longer.' It's an obnoxious magic card, not just to 14 year olds.

Also, there is a creature-less tier 1 deck in Standard right now. I don't even like standard, but I'm so sick of the 'hurr-durr midrange creatures' argument as to why standard is 'bad'. Standard is what it is - the format that comes about as the result of a smaller card pool. This thread though, is about why modern could use some cards that are beyond where wizards wants standard to be, not a standard slam fest.

Quote from AUTUMNTWILIGHT »

What is the typical Hearthstone payout look like?

Here's a start: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/328-hearthstone

For Hearthstone being astronomically larger (competitively) than magic, Pro tours don't look too bad by comparison.

Some more info-
Hearthstone top paid pro - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Beltiukov
Magic top all-time earnings list - https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/top-players/statistics/top-200-money-leaders

Magic has definitely been around a lot longer so keep that in mind. With that said though, these numbers certainly aren't small.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

What incentive? Higher prize payouts. Duh. But the profitability is in winning plus personal marketing. We're getting away from the topic of "the meta," but I think this stuff matters too. Pro gamers rarely just profit on prize money alone. They get sponsorships, they stream live to huge audiences. I'd argue there is no MtG pro who knows how to brand his or her self properly. If the pros want more money, then they can try to market themselves. This is the social media era. Add some personality, some showmanship, and personal branding on top of skilled play, and people will click to watch.

I agree with everything you've said but I do think there are a few who have a 'brand' that is followed. Kenji, Hoogland, Caleb D and LSV all have a fairly large following based on their personalities more than their deck choices. They're a rarity, but we are definitely starting to see Magic pros properly brand and market themselves.

Quote from Colt47 »

Quote from Arkmer »

Quote from thatmarkguy »

Most mechanics are mechanics that they’d want to print enough depth in to make it a draft archetype. They don’t want to just have Noble Hierarch - they want you to be able to draft the ‘go tall rather than wide’ exalted deck so they have to print enough Exalted cards to make that playable. They won’t just have Snapcaster Mage, they’ll want a draftable Flashback deck. They won’t just drop in Mox Opal, they’ll want Metalcraft to be an ideal you can draft for and play in limited. They not only want to keep the quantity of mechanics down for the sake of complexity, but for the sake of draft cohesiveness.

Sure, but I'm willing to bet they're a little more concerned about Modern right now. Also, that's a fine mentality for printing, but it's also what prevents things like Noble Hierarch from being reprinted. "Not the right set", "didn't include exalted as a theme this year"; how many other cards suffer this fate and can't be printed in a set because some other card got in and created a theme? If they intend to solve this issue and give the community the adequate amount of reprints they desire (or as economically viable as possible), they're going to have to increase the velocity of valued reprints. Doing this is going to require some loosening of that mentality.

We may just get Hierarch as the only Exalted card in a set; it's still very playable in a draft setting as a solo Exalted creature. Hierarch may also just be an incredibly good talking point, you mention Opal as requiring a more build around setting and I can agree that not all cards can be jammed into a set so haphazardly. Though, I still think that in order to increase the velocity of reprints the way I think WotC seems to be thinking, then they'll have to loosen the reins on themes a bit. What's the alternative? More masters sets in a year?

I guess it boils down to what you think the recent survey really means to Modern. If a modern centric set is released, do you think they'll build it for draft first? Or modern first? Given next to none of that survey seemed to care about draft in a serious fashion, I'm inclined to think they'll build it for modern first, then fill in the rest of the 80 to 90ish% of the set with draft supporting cards.

It'll be interesting no matter what WotC decides to do. It's certainly another pivot point for the company.

The problem we are seeing in the market is the more enfranchised players are still here while the casual and fair weather crowd left. Wotc knows we will weather the storm and wait for the relief, which is why they are so new player focused.

I've been joking that they got three rav sets in order to print modern fetch and shock in standard. Ironically, it would give alpine moon a purpose.

Data for this? Wizards has been touting that Dominaria was right up there with Khans in terms of success and popularity.

Quote from Niallplaysmagic »

Shot called.

*high fives*

Like many, I'm excited for the possibilities here. 250 new (to Modern) cards designed or chosen specifically for the format? Can't wait to see the full spoiler for this set.

Also like many, I'm blown away by no reprints of existing Modern cards in dire need of a supply injection; looks like they are banking at the novelty and equity of newer cards to drive the set sales (and they're probably right).

If I had to guess, my instinct is that another supplemental product will release in the Nov-Dec window that contains some number of choice reprints (but isn't an actual Masters set). Wizards knows that printing cards like the enemy fetches will make them money and players happy, plus they need to make up that end-of-year revenue occupied by Masters sets for the past two years.

Me...I'm just excited for old things and call-backs, and especially to not be envious of so many fun cards bypassing my favorite format for a change.

I like how we went from "terminus invalidates fair midrange" to "salty jund players wanting their deck to be the best again".

Newsflash: Wanting Midrange to be able to compete in Modern does not equate to wanting Midrange to be the best archetype.

Quote from Niallplaysmagic »

This leads to the ultimate thought that possibly this format has reached it's diversity limits. All of these decks cannot coexist, there is no balance point, and as long as Terminus is on one end and wildly fast and consistent combo/aggro (this is almost just one classification at this point) is on the other then where is this format actually going? Is anyone satisfied at this point?

Cutting down for space, but this is exactly it and as I went through the 'stages of grief' over the 4 Top 8 KCI slots.

1. This is outrageous, we need a ban!
2. Wait, what would a ban even do?
3. Wait, is 1 ban enough?
4. I dont think its even close to enough.
5. We need to ban 6+ cards.

As long as Terminus Lotto is required for 'Control' to live, true fair midrange, is dead.
As long as decks are throwing up on the table for 10+ damage on turn 2, Terminus Lotto, is required.

In the middle, you have decks that run from Burn, to Dredge, to KCI, to Tron, and there is nothing that can even remotely compete with all of them, and the 2 poles (Terminus and Looting) of the format.

I know what I believe the answer to be, but people refuse to think about it logically.

Skitzafreak, did you read my topic in the general forum about pro play? Supply and demand rules here. Pros shouldn't get paid to appear, because none of them draw enough eyeballs to justify it. There's a reason none of these guys are sponsored by red bull, verizon, pizza hut, budweiser, or nintendo.

Not enough people care about any particular individual pro or team. If Gabriel Nassif never played Magic again, there would be no change in viewer count. If the entire team cfb retired, there would be no change in viewer count. The fact that four guys can say "hey everybody we're trying another game over here!" and bring eyeballs is proof enough. You get what you deserve, and pros deserve very little. Side note, I found it great that the finals were a hearthstone pro pairing. It's always nice to remind the world that these few dozen MtG people aren't much better than any of us. They just catch breaks (the bye system at GPs is awful).

You want bigger payouts at events? So do I. Eliminating appearance fees for pro players, not paying for travel or lodging for e-celebs who don't draw, that turns into bigger payouts that are actually earned that weekend by winning. It means you or I have a shot at the cash. WOTC could, and should, sell promo tokens or lands to help fund bigger payouts, too. I'd buy half a dozen foil islands with classic artwork (or brand new, if it's good) if I knew the profit margin was being redirected to pro play.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

Quote from Niallplaysmagic »

Quote from idSurge »

I missed the joke, but since 'SJW' is a politically charged word, unrelated to MTG, its probably best to leave it or pull in an infraction. I've been infracted for less.

Bingo. It's a derogatory stupid term that doesn't have any place here.

Wrong. And you know what? Screw it if the site is gonna be pro SJW and crazy lefty.

This proves you are using it in a derogatory manner, why bother disagreeing? If you want to discuss this, I think there are other area's of the forum for it. Thats all I am saying.

Quote from Aeonsz »

Quote from Colt47 »

Quote from cfusionpm »

I would honestly rather see <$20 goyfs/bobs/etc in my binders, than look longingly at a playset of cards I *might* use that cost $400+ and never buy.

Agreed 100%. Having a price decrease doesn't mean the card got Obsoleted as much as there is an actual viable alternative that works. Also, I love the idea of modern only sets since it means we finally could get things like Counter Spell, Baleful Strix, Sanctum Prelate, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Shardless Agent, etc.

Getting cards like Baleful Strix is a great idea, but if you get an upgrade of baleful strix every year and your new toy sits there useless after 6 months, it defeats the purpose of a non rotating format. Another channel of introducing cards into the format is absolutely wonderful, as long as they get the balance right, and don't take it too far.

Card selection and deck choices already shift and change with time and there is a limit to the power level they print at each CMC. The chances of a truly "better" Baleful Strix is basically nil, because that card is the apex of power for that kind of ability, to the point that they have never printed it in a standard legal set. A common strategy for designing a long running game is to make cards that feel fair, and once you've zoned in on the point where things feel like they might be bordering on being too good and too weak, you back down and start designing between the two. That's why there are so many variations of 2 and 3 damage burn spells, yet none are truly at Lightning Bolt power level.

Modern is a format dominated by the apex of each tier, so if they do print a better version of something, it will eventually cap out and the format becomes stable. Worrying about power creep is kind of silly in this regard for modern. Plus, if they did print something truly grotesque like another Deathrite Shaman it would be banned pretty fast.

Quote from Trazaeth »

I don't know, but modern is pretty fun and yes randomly due to variance you die on turn 3 just like sometimes I will Jace your library on turn 16. It happens and the game has a lot more games that are neither of those extremes. Should probably embrace the reality of that.

Just a thought.

For all the griping we do...this is on point. We all play and enjoy Modern, to various degrees, and we all do things that others consider unfun, unfair, or busted.

I've LITERALLY had people telling me Teferi is too strong. Same with Search. Same with Jace.

Everyone in Modern, playing 'real' decks, is doing powerful things, and the quoted portion especially, resonated.

Good post.

Poking my head here to say a few things as a control player. I've been monitoring in lurk mode for months and have seen the new deck. Yes, Vengevine has and always will be a way to get at control decks, the additional ways of getting it into the yard and the addition of Bridge from Below is also nasty, am I out for it's head? No.

Yes it hoses my strategy along with a few other decks casting things along the lines of faithless looting, burning inquiry, and ancient stirrings. All I really want is a SFM and Preordain unban or maybe even a DTT which I'm sure everyone will bemoan, but yes I'd like a toy just like everyone else who has a pet card on that list. Preordain and DTT I would cast, SFM I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be on the ban list at this point.

Until the meta is having to main deck things like RIP or Relic of Progenitus, can we just leave the ban hammers out of this?

Also, everyone wanting a ban on stirrings is nuts to request that if they ever want a good modern cantrip off the list or printed again.

In addition, these cries against blood moon are hilarious. I play all flavors of control, sultai, grixis, esper, jeskai, uw, ub, and ur. Have I been in a non-game with blood moon? Of course. Do I think it's hilarious that I can look at a board state of choke and blood moon because of 8th and 9th? Not really. But those DO serve a purpose in this game regardless. Most of the time decks casting Blood Moon sit on their hands and give me time to try and play. If I win games by soft locking the games most of the time, I can't really get angry at other people for doing a similar thing.

The only thing I really wish for in modern as a non ban list addition is Counterspell and a variant of Delay/Remand that actually exiled instead of countered. I really just want more exile target spells to be a thing. With all the anti-counter magic readily available to this meta I wouldn't mind a couple of situational low cost counters that exile spells and delay them.

I don't know, but modern is pretty fun and yes randomly due to variance you die on turn 3 just like sometimes I will Jace your library on turn 16. It happens and the game has a lot more games that are neither of those extremes. Should probably embrace the reality of that.

Just a thought.

Uhh...I'm not going to weep over some collateral when we have 2 decks that are (probably) in need of being brought back to earth, and 1 card hits them both in the way they need to be hit.

Unless you want to just gut both of them with something really meaningful.