Boy this thread went downhill. We had a stretch of some solid GP results, minus potentially the KCI/Tron issue. Now we add a single SCG Open and a PT Day 1 breakdown and people are freaking out. Everyone needs to calm down and wait for more GP and MTGO results, not Open and Team PT Day 1 results. We alreary know those kinds of results are largelu meaningless. Wait for more influential results.
It went downhill because we're pointing out just how busted two decks are that are both abusing notoriously and historically busted cards that have been at the center of conversation for months?
Also, no, PT results weigh heavier on Wizards than random GP or MTGO results. The PT has always brought along a much higher magnifying glass with it.
Tron is probably the only Ancient Stirrings deck that would be fine with Oath of Nissa. Banning Stirrings just kills a bunch of tier two decks
It neuters a tier 1 deck that looks very much like how Amulet looked a few years ago, KCI - that in the hands of pros that are ridiculously good, the deck is busted in half. It's meta share only capped by the difficulty with which it takes to play the deck.
I see no evidence that WOTC is really limiting creatures. Limiting Spells sure but Creatures where is the evidence of this?
They got to print something powerful and I think this argument is overblown if its OP ban it until such a time power has increased to the point where it no longer needs a ban.
What needed is consistency on policy in my book. I have yet to see why Faithless Looting and Ancient Stirrings are fair and fine while Ponder and Preordain are unfair and broken despite card draw being a main trait of Blue not Red and Green's Primary Trait. Sure you gotta discard or play colorless but those are not really a disadvantage for the decks in question aka Tron or KCI and Jund or Mardu, they are a net positive.
Creatures *aren't* limited - that's why they banned Pod.
I think both are a problem due to how many cards in the future they both can potentially limit. Pod is cited as a problem for limiting creatures, well, both Stirrings and FL are both continually being put to the test by every new set as well. They've both been problems before, they both will be again.
Marshall brought up a great point when talking about the Vengevine deck, that it's Faithless Looting that looks like almost certainly the best card in modern. Considering how much it enables busted graveyard strategies time and time again, I'd be surprised if someone at Wizards wasn't at least looking at it.
That's why I put it as an option in every ban poll, even if there are people (typically mardu pyromancer players) that give me the stick.
Marshall brought up a great point when talking about the Vengevine deck, that it's Faithless Looting that looks like almost certainly the best card in modern. Considering how much it enables busted graveyard strategies time and time again, I'd be surprised if someone at Wizards wasn't at least looking at it.
Thanks for the tips Yriel! I do love that there are so many ways to approach matchups with the deck.
Ended up going 1-3 at the PPTQ but I'm still fairly happy with how things went (considering).
Match one was against Storm (ugh). I knew I was in trouble when he went foil Tarn into Expedition Vents into foil Sleight. Lol. Ended up taking this to three games and was one untap step away from stabilizing. He ended up winning through two paths on his mana creatures and got there. So it goes.
Match two was against Jund and it wasn't close. This deck crushes Jund. Highlight was him mulling to 6 and keeping a one lander and getting GQ locked by turn 4 even with two inquisitions. Delightful.
Match three was against Jeskai and we took it to all three games. In game three I had him to 1 and dead on board to an Aven Mindcensor when he topdecked a Teferi. Teferi proceeded to draw 8 cards. Teferi is good. Ha! I did *slightly* misplay in this last match as I should have named Snapcaster with Gideon's Intervention, not Cryptic. Also, Teferi makes Choke look like a joke, heads-up.
Match four was against Counters company (ugh again). Took it to three again and couldn't meaningfully stop him by turn three. Happens. Terrible matchup.
With that, the matchup we are supposed to win, I won. The matchup we're 50/50 with, I took to one life point. And the matchups we're bad against, were close. Just bad pairings. I literally played against the only Counters Company player in the room while staring at Mardu Pyromancers all around me. Oh well - on to the next one!
People will always find something to complain about - that's the nature of hobbies.
With that, these are some of the most tame complaints this thread has ever faced as modern is in a relatively healthy cyclical metagame. Some people will get bent out of shape about Stirrings, or humans, or that Twin isn't around, but compared to how it's been that really isn't too bad.
In the last 3 GPs Humans was clearly declining. Maybe the deck gained some popularity again after Sao Paulo? We can also just nominate Humans as deck of the month if you wish.
EDIT: also nearly no trace of Humans in the MTGO Challenge (only a 14th place). Lots of Spirits though...
Looking over that list, I sure wouldnt be sad to see something that says 'Choose a Creature Type, All Creatures of that Type are -1/-1' or 'Cost 1 more to Cast' to hit Elves, Spirits, Humans, Eldrazi...
I wouldn't be against an Engineered Plague reprint. It's not a game over for any decks (aside from maybe Goblins?), but could be interesting.
With that, I'm thoroughly in the Humans are just the flavor of the week camp. Deck is fine. Pretty much everything is fine right now. Learn your deck, stop trying to one up the metagame and you'll do fine.
I played his list from last week to the #1 seed after Swiss in a 53 person PPTQ on Sunday, losing to Storm in the Quarterfinals.
This list seems fantastic. In the Valuetown facebook group, we've been calling lists like these that run Knight 'Combony' as they can go hard on value or into the combo. Super sweet stuff.
With Karn this high, it's probably smart to look to pick up cheaper Tron pieces. Because Karn is currently such a huge amount of the value of the deck, if he sees a large reprint the value is likely to shift to other pieces. Oblivion Stone *has* been a $50 card before, and it's not crazy to think it could hit that again.
If anyone is interested, the following is the sideboard guide I wrote up going into Saturday. Most of this is some combination of Stevens' premium article from a month back and Goldman's last sideboarding guide. My main/side are different than both of theirs, so I had to make some changes.
This is the list I'm working off of - I ended up choosing a Dromoka's for that 60th slot as I'm expecting plenty of Humans and the card is great there.
"I've never been a huge fan of Worship in the mainboard. There are a lot of decks that you just beat with it but there is a lot of incidental hate for it that just makes it look bad. I guess it's a meta call though."
It's definitely a meta call currently. Some decks just can't beat it - namely Hollow One and Humans which are both solidly tier 1. With a deck like this you're inevitably going to have plenty to sideboard out and Worship is good enough in game one that I'm happy to do so.
"I mentioned the land creatures might be decent cuts because it seems the Ghost Quarter lock isn't the primary strategy in the players I've seen play the deck. But if it is primary in your deck then nevermind."
This gets tricky - because land destruction is never primary, but it's almost always an attractive late game inevitability option. You should almost never rush for the lock, but siding it out completely is almost never correct either. Azusa is definitely the swingiest card in the 75, but it ends up being your 'oops I win' button too often to want to drop it. It's like worship in that we're going to often board it out, but it's upside is high enough to make it worth it.
"How has Cataclysmic Gearhulk been for you?"
Great! Against really go wide decks it allows us to play a pseudo wrath that we have a ton of control over. It does tons of work against other green decks like elves that are almost unwinnable otherwise.
"And do you feel like 1x Eldrict Evolution is enough or would you prefer 2 if you had room?"
I've gone back and forth between 1 and 2. The board is just super tight as it is. Still, being able to basically add a copy of any of your creatures post board is pretty good. We'd play 8 copies of Courser and Knight if we could - Eldritch just adds to the virtual count of each while giving us some sideboard flex.
It went downhill because we're pointing out just how busted two decks are that are both abusing notoriously and historically busted cards that have been at the center of conversation for months?
Also, no, PT results weigh heavier on Wizards than random GP or MTGO results. The PT has always brought along a much higher magnifying glass with it.
It neuters a tier 1 deck that looks very much like how Amulet looked a few years ago, KCI - that in the hands of pros that are ridiculously good, the deck is busted in half. It's meta share only capped by the difficulty with which it takes to play the deck.
Creatures *aren't* limited - that's why they banned Pod.
"Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks." https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-01-19
Evidence of this in action - Felidar Guardian would have been a huge problem if pod was still around.
Yep - definitely remember that.
With the way KCI is looking on camera too, they might be looking at both (Stirrings and FL) to be honest.
Ended up going 1-3 at the PPTQ but I'm still fairly happy with how things went (considering).
Match one was against Storm (ugh). I knew I was in trouble when he went foil Tarn into Expedition Vents into foil Sleight. Lol. Ended up taking this to three games and was one untap step away from stabilizing. He ended up winning through two paths on his mana creatures and got there. So it goes.
Match two was against Jund and it wasn't close. This deck crushes Jund. Highlight was him mulling to 6 and keeping a one lander and getting GQ locked by turn 4 even with two inquisitions. Delightful.
Match three was against Jeskai and we took it to all three games. In game three I had him to 1 and dead on board to an Aven Mindcensor when he topdecked a Teferi. Teferi proceeded to draw 8 cards. Teferi is good. Ha! I did *slightly* misplay in this last match as I should have named Snapcaster with Gideon's Intervention, not Cryptic. Also, Teferi makes Choke look like a joke, heads-up.
Match four was against Counters company (ugh again). Took it to three again and couldn't meaningfully stop him by turn three. Happens. Terrible matchup.
With that, the matchup we are supposed to win, I won. The matchup we're 50/50 with, I took to one life point. And the matchups we're bad against, were close. Just bad pairings. I literally played against the only Counters Company player in the room while staring at Mardu Pyromancers all around me. Oh well - on to the next one!
With that, these are some of the most tame complaints this thread has ever faced as modern is in a relatively healthy cyclical metagame. Some people will get bent out of shape about Stirrings, or humans, or that Twin isn't around, but compared to how it's been that really isn't too bad.
I wouldn't be against an Engineered Plague reprint. It's not a game over for any decks (aside from maybe Goblins?), but could be interesting.
With that, I'm thoroughly in the Humans are just the flavor of the week camp. Deck is fine. Pretty much everything is fine right now. Learn your deck, stop trying to one up the metagame and you'll do fine.
This list seems fantastic. In the Valuetown facebook group, we've been calling lists like these that run Knight 'Combony' as they can go hard on value or into the combo. Super sweet stuff.
This is the worst possible way to address format problems.
Also, how would this even be possible?
This is the list I'm working off of - I ended up choosing a Dromoka's for that 60th slot as I'm expecting plenty of Humans and the card is great there.
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Ramunap Excavator
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Collected Company
1x Dromoka's Command
4x Path to Exile
1x Worship
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
2x Choke
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Eldritch Evolution
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Gideon's Intervention
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
____________________
Jeskai / UWx –
Out: 4 Path, 1 Birds, Worship, Azusa (UW)
In: 2 Surgical, 2 Choke, Nissa, Gideon’s Intervention, Rec Sage (UW)
Humans –
Out: 1 Tracker, 1 Ramunap, Azusa, Mindcensor
In: 2 EE, Gideon’s Intervention, Cataclysmic
Affinity –
Out: 4 Voice, Azusa, 1 Tracker, 2 Coco
In: 2 EE, 2 Stony, Kataki, Rec Sage, Eldritch Evo, Gideon’s Intervention
Gx Tron –
Out: 2 Path, Dromoka’s, Scooze, 2 Voice, Worship
In: 2 Surgical, 2 Stony, Kataki, Rec Sage, Eldritch Evo
Hollow One –
Out: 2 Ramunap, Azusa, Coco, Mindcensor
In: 2 Surgical, Rec Sage, Gideon’s Int, Cataclysmic
Burn –
Out: 2 Tracker
In: Rec Sage, Eldritch Evo
Storm –
Out: 4 Voice, Worship, 1 Tracker
In: 2 Surgical, Eidolon, Eldritch Evo, 1 Choke, 1 Gideon’s Intervention
Mardu Pyro –
Out: 2 Voice, 1 Ramunap, 1 Azusa
In: 2 EE, Nissa, Cataclysmic
Jund (and other BGx) –
Out: Dromoka’s, Azusa, Worship
In: 2 EE, Nissa
Grixis DS -
Out: Dromoka’s, Azusa
In: 1 Choke, 1 Nissa
Bogles –
Out: 2 Voice, Scooze (on the play), 1 Coco, 2 Path
In: 2 EE, Rec Sage, Eidolon (on the play), Eldritch Evo, Cataclysmic
Titanshift –
Out: 1 Path, Scooze, 3 Voice
In: 2 Surgical, Eldritch Evo, Eidolon, Gideon’s Intervention
Blue Moon –
Out: 4 Path
In: Rec Sage, 2 Choke, Nissa
KCI –
Out: Dromoka’s, 4 Voice, Azusa, 1 Ramunap, 1 Mindcensor, 1 Coco, Worship
In: 2 EE, 2 Surgical, Kataki, 2 Stony, Eldritch, Eidolon, Rec Sage
Amulet –
Out: 4 Voice, 1 Tracker, Dromoka’s
In: 2 Stony, Rec Sage, Eidolon, Eldritch, Gideon’s Intervention
Counters –
Out: 4 Voice, Azusa, 1 Ramunap
In: 2 Surgical, 2 EE, Cataclysmic, Rec Sage
Infect –
Out: 3 Voice, Scooze, 1 Tracker
In: 2 EE, Eidolon, Eldritch, Gideon’s
Living End –
Out: 2 Ramunap, Azusa, 1 Path
In: 2 Surgical, Cataclysmic, Eldritch
Lantern –
Out: 4 Courser, 4 Path, 1 Worship, 1 Voice
In: 2 EE, Cataclysmic, Eldritch, Rec Sage, Kataki, 2 Stony, 2 Surgical
______________________
If you think I'm way off base somewhere or would do something different, let me know. Some of these are based more on intuition than experience.
It's definitely a meta call currently. Some decks just can't beat it - namely Hollow One and Humans which are both solidly tier 1. With a deck like this you're inevitably going to have plenty to sideboard out and Worship is good enough in game one that I'm happy to do so.
"I mentioned the land creatures might be decent cuts because it seems the Ghost Quarter lock isn't the primary strategy in the players I've seen play the deck. But if it is primary in your deck then nevermind."
This gets tricky - because land destruction is never primary, but it's almost always an attractive late game inevitability option. You should almost never rush for the lock, but siding it out completely is almost never correct either. Azusa is definitely the swingiest card in the 75, but it ends up being your 'oops I win' button too often to want to drop it. It's like worship in that we're going to often board it out, but it's upside is high enough to make it worth it.
"How has Cataclysmic Gearhulk been for you?"
Great! Against really go wide decks it allows us to play a pseudo wrath that we have a ton of control over. It does tons of work against other green decks like elves that are almost unwinnable otherwise.
"And do you feel like 1x Eldrict Evolution is enough or would you prefer 2 if you had room?"
I've gone back and forth between 1 and 2. The board is just super tight as it is. Still, being able to basically add a copy of any of your creatures post board is pretty good. We'd play 8 copies of Courser and Knight if we could - Eldritch just adds to the virtual count of each while giving us some sideboard flex.