Same! I've iterated on the deck for about the last year and a half. I found I really struggled game 1 vs some of the go-wide decks and moving him from SB to maindeck made a huge difference. I just ran it at Vegas and went 5-3, just missing the cutoff for Day 2. I'd be curious to see your list! Maybe we should start a thread for Eldrazi Evolution, since it's really its own deck?
Hello guys !
I play a similar deck.
A friend is playing mono U extra turns and I can't figure out how to beat him.
Maybe you have an idea ?
@ Elguur - you do have some tools that can help vs Turns, mainly your discard targeting their *draw* engine cards (Dictate of Kruphix and Howling Mine are the prime targets in the older Turns builds, otherwise Ancestral vision, or in the new builds As Foretold is huge for them). Post-side Fulminator Mage is solid vs Turns, because they need to survive to a critical mass of lands with an engine in play. Unless they're playing Baral, all removal can come out in favor of more hand disruption or land destruction. Other than that once they hit 4 mana generally don't play anything on your turn until second main phase, so that if they need to cryptic to tap down your board, they can't counter/tap, but have to draw/tap instead. If you really want to dedicate to beating the deck, you can run some copies of boil in the side as well - if you have one in hand you'd need to prioritize taking counter-magic with your hand disruption spells so that the coast is clear to resolve boil. Targeting counter-magic rather than engine cards could leave you exposed to them comboing off to an early Temporal Mastery though so there's some risk to that strategy. Still, it's something you can try for cheap if you are struggling in the matchup and want to try some targeted hate. Hope that helps!
The only issue I have with using the Del Tora and Wescoe lists from the primer is that they're all several years out of date. The most recent Wescoe list was discussed several pages ago and was drastically different from most lists. As poor as it tends to be I unfortunately have to use the recent reported lists from MTGTop8 as a basis for what is and isn't good card choices currently.
That's a very good point - if you were to reference some of her old decklists the card choices are very dated for where the archetype has gone since then with card options that have come out since then (Elspeth and Sorin LoS have been fully supplanted by Sorin Solemn Visitor, etc.). Pro opinions definitely have to be taken within their context (meta, card pool at the time, and potentially how they actually did with the deck). Decks are works in progress for them too, and when we quote an opinion they posted or cite a decklist they put up, that was just a snapshot along a continuum of ongoing development (or implied continuum, if the deck was abandoned) that is invisible to us. More reasons it should be taken with a grain of salt and understood to have...nuanced applicability.
Personally, I run as many Shrines and BW lands as I can. I don't like 4 or even 3 concealed courtyard because they kept ETB tapped late game when I needed 4 mana. 2 seems good and it synergies better than Isolated Chapel.
On a side note, while we all reference and read articles by the pros, I think it is also important to realize that with the exception of a few, most of the pros focus on standard and (by their own admission) their knowledge of modern and legacy and other formats is more limited. This isn't to say that they don't know anything or shouldn't be listened to, but rather that there are regular contributors to modern forums whose opinions I take rather seriously because I know they grind modern a lot. Several regular contributors here, for example, I may not agree with, but I also listen to their opinions and respect their judgement. I think that they have a lot of good insights and a lot of experiencing grinding BW tokens (certainly more than I do). IMO they are the experts on the archetype, even more so than some of the pros who picked up the deck for a weekend. I mean, I Craig Wescoe and Melissa De Tora, but I don't always agree with them and where they take the deck. I use the ideas I read about in my own brews to see if the deck gets better. I have my own preferences, and sometimes I don't like the tweak or the card interactions and abandon it.
My point is that there are plenty of experts on MTG Salvation. They aren't all pros.
I think you make a decent point, and really I think results show more than pro opinions, but they are a relevant data point because the pro mindset by definition is the very essence of Spike - their job is to maximize win %, and they are by definition good players or they wouldn't be pro, so if they think a card was worth running in their 75 it's probably at least...worth consideration, and at the very least not likely to be "unplayable," as people are fond of throwing around. Pro opinions are often at odds with each other, so it's not like everything they say and do is gospel truth, but in an archetype piloted by amateurs, any additional data points we can bring into the discussion are relevant pieces of information. In a forum where we simply cannot see the win rates and matchup histories of everyone discussing the deck, I view an opinion as being considerably bolstered if it's backed up by a decklist a pro piloted at some event, or by a high finish. It doesn't make them necessarily right, but it would be willfully negligent to discount those data points outright or sweep them away as wholly irrelevant.
In the past two comments we've had opposite sides of the spectrum:
"Windbrisk Heights is one of the best cards in the deck and is 100% a 4-of"
"Windbrisk Heights" is borderline unplayable."
I've heard it said that magic players love hyperbole, I guess this is a good example. I tend to lean towards it being quite good but with 4-of being too risky, as it's very bad to have two of your early lands be Windbrisk. I think it makes a great 22nd-23rd or 24th land, as it reduces our chances of mana screw to add it as an extra land while mitigating flood with a land-based source of card selection/advantage. The ability to cheat out an anthem after blockers are declared can be huge as well. The closest analog to a high finish with our archetype is Matt Nass GWb tokens deck that took a top 16 at GP LA last year. He ran 3, and his build was more aggressive than traditional BW tokens builds, making it even more susceptible to tempo loss (but notice he also ran 25 lands, so he's less likely to be forced to play it at a poor time due to lack of other lands in hand on a crucial early turn. He also ramps with creatures so is less punished for playing a tapped land - two reasons I think 3 is more like the max for traditional BW tokens than undercutting the "100% 4-of".) Not sure the meta is so drastically different now from then to turn the card from pretty good to "borderline unplayable"... If there are other comparable decks that placed at some big events I'd certainly be interested and open to revising my opinion, but my point is that blanket declarations on either side of the spectrum are usually pretty far off the mark.
One additional curve consideration is how many black sources you have for your opening hand, as almost all of the BW tokens Turn 1 plays are a single black mana, a number further increased by fatal push. So depending on what other utility lands you play, I think that also limits the cap on Windbrisks you can play without adding to land count.
3 tokens (w/out flying)+ a free up-to-3cmc spell seems like it deserves consideration, or at least a solid denouncement before dismissing it. Though, hard to imagine ever being happy to get that instead of Sorin.
I think Sram's could be a big game for us. This thread seems seems a little closed-off to the related archetype of GWb tokens (which I guess is fair since it's a BW tokens thread, but GWb tokens doesn't have a thread and shares a decent portion of the same core build), but I think that's actually its most natural home since you can fairly quickly ramp into enough mana to cast it early and really benefit from the additional tempo advantage it provides. I want to try it in BWg tokens as well, but I'm a bit less confident as the curve is a bit less advantageous, and the cost is higher to running the biggest payoff card, Beck/Call, as we cannot realistically ever hard cast it in BWg Tokens.
If you're interested I'd be happy to post or IM you the decklists I'm considering!
Yeah, IMO he's only a consideration for BB shells, as you lose your Honor of the Pure anthems 5-6 in that version. I tried him out and was generally pretty happy, but I do agree his 1-2 (most likely just 1) slots are flex, whereas Sorin's minimum 3 slots are core.
@xzzane: I don't think I'd call Knight Errant second, so much as there's a conditional second, depending on build:
If you're running Hero of Blade Hold or Brimaz, with a combined count of at least 3, Knight Errant is probably second
If you're running an all-token build, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is IMO second after Sorin.
Anything in between and it probably gets a little murky.
Great primer, love the decklist as a solid current cookie-cutter build of BW tokens. I'm intrigued by your mention of EE as a maindeck inclusion in your build for one of the flex spots. I agree with a poster above that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar deserves a mention - I really like him as an extra anthem in this version of the deck. A splash section may be a nice inclusion as well, as another poster also mentioned. My pet deck lately, after messing with more fair versions very much like your decklist off and on for the past year, is a blue splash for Polymorph into Emrakul, as an alternative top-end win condition. I really like it, and it legitimately seems pretty strong to me so far in playtesting against various meta decks. It sets up a natural tension between them needing to board out spot removal and needing to keep it, and between them needing to fire off removal pre-combat to keep you off an activated Windbrisk Heights vs keeping it up to have an answer to a possible Polymorph 2nd main phase. Blue splash also opens up Detention Sphere as a more powerful O-ring in the sideboard.
Same! I've iterated on the deck for about the last year and a half. I found I really struggled game 1 vs some of the go-wide decks and moving him from SB to maindeck made a huge difference. I just ran it at Vegas and went 5-3, just missing the cutoff for Day 2. I'd be curious to see your list! Maybe we should start a thread for Eldrazi Evolution, since it's really its own deck?
@ Elguur - you do have some tools that can help vs Turns, mainly your discard targeting their *draw* engine cards (Dictate of Kruphix and Howling Mine are the prime targets in the older Turns builds, otherwise Ancestral vision, or in the new builds As Foretold is huge for them). Post-side Fulminator Mage is solid vs Turns, because they need to survive to a critical mass of lands with an engine in play. Unless they're playing Baral, all removal can come out in favor of more hand disruption or land destruction. Other than that once they hit 4 mana generally don't play anything on your turn until second main phase, so that if they need to cryptic to tap down your board, they can't counter/tap, but have to draw/tap instead. If you really want to dedicate to beating the deck, you can run some copies of boil in the side as well - if you have one in hand you'd need to prioritize taking counter-magic with your hand disruption spells so that the coast is clear to resolve boil. Targeting counter-magic rather than engine cards could leave you exposed to them comboing off to an early Temporal Mastery though so there's some risk to that strategy. Still, it's something you can try for cheap if you are struggling in the matchup and want to try some targeted hate. Hope that helps!
That's a very good point - if you were to reference some of her old decklists the card choices are very dated for where the archetype has gone since then with card options that have come out since then (Elspeth and Sorin LoS have been fully supplanted by Sorin Solemn Visitor, etc.). Pro opinions definitely have to be taken within their context (meta, card pool at the time, and potentially how they actually did with the deck). Decks are works in progress for them too, and when we quote an opinion they posted or cite a decklist they put up, that was just a snapshot along a continuum of ongoing development (or implied continuum, if the deck was abandoned) that is invisible to us. More reasons it should be taken with a grain of salt and understood to have...nuanced applicability.
I think you make a decent point, and really I think results show more than pro opinions, but they are a relevant data point because the pro mindset by definition is the very essence of Spike - their job is to maximize win %, and they are by definition good players or they wouldn't be pro, so if they think a card was worth running in their 75 it's probably at least...worth consideration, and at the very least not likely to be "unplayable," as people are fond of throwing around. Pro opinions are often at odds with each other, so it's not like everything they say and do is gospel truth, but in an archetype piloted by amateurs, any additional data points we can bring into the discussion are relevant pieces of information. In a forum where we simply cannot see the win rates and matchup histories of everyone discussing the deck, I view an opinion as being considerably bolstered if it's backed up by a decklist a pro piloted at some event, or by a high finish. It doesn't make them necessarily right, but it would be willfully negligent to discount those data points outright or sweep them away as wholly irrelevant.
"Windbrisk Heights is one of the best cards in the deck and is 100% a 4-of"
"Windbrisk Heights" is borderline unplayable."
I've heard it said that magic players love hyperbole, I guess this is a good example. I tend to lean towards it being quite good but with 4-of being too risky, as it's very bad to have two of your early lands be Windbrisk. I think it makes a great 22nd-23rd or 24th land, as it reduces our chances of mana screw to add it as an extra land while mitigating flood with a land-based source of card selection/advantage. The ability to cheat out an anthem after blockers are declared can be huge as well. The closest analog to a high finish with our archetype is Matt Nass GWb tokens deck that took a top 16 at GP LA last year. He ran 3, and his build was more aggressive than traditional BW tokens builds, making it even more susceptible to tempo loss (but notice he also ran 25 lands, so he's less likely to be forced to play it at a poor time due to lack of other lands in hand on a crucial early turn. He also ramps with creatures so is less punished for playing a tapped land - two reasons I think 3 is more like the max for traditional BW tokens than undercutting the "100% 4-of".) Not sure the meta is so drastically different now from then to turn the card from pretty good to "borderline unplayable"... If there are other comparable decks that placed at some big events I'd certainly be interested and open to revising my opinion, but my point is that blanket declarations on either side of the spectrum are usually pretty far off the mark.
One additional curve consideration is how many black sources you have for your opening hand, as almost all of the BW tokens Turn 1 plays are a single black mana, a number further increased by fatal push. So depending on what other utility lands you play, I think that also limits the cap on Windbrisks you can play without adding to land count.
I think Sram's could be a big game for us. This thread seems seems a little closed-off to the related archetype of GWb tokens (which I guess is fair since it's a BW tokens thread, but GWb tokens doesn't have a thread and shares a decent portion of the same core build), but I think that's actually its most natural home since you can fairly quickly ramp into enough mana to cast it early and really benefit from the additional tempo advantage it provides. I want to try it in BWg tokens as well, but I'm a bit less confident as the curve is a bit less advantageous, and the cost is higher to running the biggest payoff card, Beck/Call, as we cannot realistically ever hard cast it in BWg Tokens.
If you're interested I'd be happy to post or IM you the decklists I'm considering!
For Elves, check out Hour of Reckoning as a sideboard option. I have found it to be quite good against elves and Merfolk, in particular.
If you're running Hero of Blade Hold or Brimaz, with a combined count of at least 3, Knight Errant is probably second
If you're running an all-token build, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is IMO second after Sorin.
Anything in between and it probably gets a little murky.