MTG Salvation

Cross-post from the Dega Midrange thread...

After trying long smear of different Prowess color/archetype mixes I've settled on polishing a Mardu midrange-control list. I was hoping you guys could give a bit of preliminary feedback and guidance:


*Sideboard TBD
(Props to Demention, Blenderhead386, and several others here who have helped to shape this)

It’s a Prowess list centered on Mentor & Abbot. I’ve decided to run black over blue because it offers proactive, prowess-compatible threat protection via discard, which is also compatible with Abbot’s flip ability.

Though we don’t have blue for cantrips, Bob, Abbot, Kommand and Lingering Souls generate raw card advantage, Looting provides card filtering, and Bauble is simple Prowess Trigger fodder.

Faithless Looting has been the secret MVP of the deck and does a surprisingly great stand-in for Serum Visions. It’s critical for raising the deck’s consistency by smoothing the threat:spell:land ratio and digs for your most relevant cards. The typical down-side of card disadvantage is offset by giving extra value on cast via Prowess Trigger, and pitching Lingering Souls also helps to negate the disadvantage. The flashback then gives a second trigger, and can turn a fifth land on T5 into another spell to keep you chugging. Finally, T1 Faithless Looting sets up T2 Tasigur.

Ideal curve #1
T1: Inquisition
T2: Dark Confidant
T3: Monastery Mentor + Mishra’s Bauble

Ideal curve #2
T1: Faithless Looting
T2: Inquision + Tasigur
T3: Abbot + Flip

I’m currently wrestling with whether to keep the focus on Mentor & Prowess, or change back to a more typical Young Pyromancer list. Mentor has become a bit of a pet card so I’m probably biased, but I feel like the maximum power level of Mentor is high enough that it’s worth chasing for now. Any thoughts from people with similar lists? General feedback?

@the_falsehate: Yeah, I've been doing a decent chunk of building & testing.

I started with a custom Mardu Prowess build, evolved it and played it for several months before I decided blue cantrips were just too critical to leave out. I've since moved on to testing a variant of Chapin's Grixis Prowess against a gauntlet of Affinity, Merfolk, Jund, & Tron. It's been alright. Regarding the tension of being proactive vs reactive: my own experience is that if you get lucky with a Gitaxian Probe you'll know what's coming and are able to better choose when to leave mana up for a critical reactive play without sacrificing too much of your pressure... but that doesn't always come together. The games where I need to keep mana open (especially two for remand) I feel like a worse version of burn. I've had some explosive blowouts, double Swiftspear opener is the nuts as you all know.. but just as many games where I'm in top-decking mode, out of prowess fuel and pulling "air" off the top while my opponent catches up and takes control of the game. Or matches where I lose a threat to bolt and just fail to draw another fast enough to keep the pressure on. It felt like it was in an awkward no-man's land where it wasn't as fast as a proper aggro deck, and didn't have the longevity or depth of interaction that a traditional tempo list had.

With the release of Stormchaser Mage and the recent success of RUG Delver I've been going back to the drawing board, asking myself if there isn't a better way to build Prowess that is consistent, robust, and better handles the rising 2016 linear aggro meta. Building and testing will certainly help but I'm honestly unsure of where to even start so I'm asking myself (and now you) these core questions about the Prowess mechanic, resulting deck design, and the place of the deck in the meta to get a feel for that.

Hi all, I’ve read the primer and kept up with various Prowess developments, but forgive me as I haven’t had time to read all of the posts in this thread.

I really want to like Prowess-based decks. These Monks & Wizards have a quasi-tribal feel to them and more importantly the lists are all built around a central mechanic with design implications that ripple through the deck and create interesting micro-synergies.

However, after tons of hype, brewing, testing, reading, I’m still having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around an optimal Prowess deck, as I can’t reconcile the underlying design tensions inherent to the Prowess mechanic and find a strong direction to hone in on.

Namely, that tension is between playing a proactive main phase to pump threats from below-curve to above-curve while also trying to play a reactive game and protect said threats. With prowess, holding mana back for counterspells limits our attack potential. Essentially we have to pause our clock to keep our threats safe. Since winning via tempo relies upon having a faster clock than your opponent, this strikes me as a serious fundamental conflict. On top of that, as others have pointed out, counterspells are unusable flips off of Abbot.

Another way to protect our threats is to run black for hand disruption. While black hand disruption is more compatible with the main-phase focus it’s not compatible with our game timeline, where we want to get a threat down first to establish the clock and then play prowess-triggering spells afterwards.

Lastly we can also ignore counterspells altogether, run mutagenic growth against bolt and bounce our own creatures with Snag in response to terminate etc, but at that point are we really getting the full interactive advantage that a tempo deck is meant to provide in comparison to other linear aggro strategies?

How do you reconcile this tension? Alternatively, am I unfairly emphasizing its importance?

Additionally, what strengths does Jeskai Prowess provide over a more traditional tempo deck like RUG Delver (Delver flip rate aside)? To me Prowess has the potential to be more explosive when it draws well and the opponent is light on removal, but it also comes with the cost of greater vulnerability and a shorter lifespan that's reliant on prowess fuel.

Also, I see CurdBros state that the Jeskai version is well positioned at the moment – my understanding was that tempo decks generally fold to aggro. What makes the difference here? Can anyone elaborate on this more, or point to any gameplay streams? When I look at the Primer's MB+SB I don’t see quite the amount of sweepers, 2-for-1s, life gain, and so forth that I’d expect for a positive matchup vs aggro.

Thank you for your input. I apologize if this has come up a lot, perhaps something further addressing these points could be appended to the primer if need be.

While researching this archetype I recently came across Matthew Currie’s Mardu Pox list, which got 4th at the SCG Modern Premeir IQ in Coopersburg and was featured on a Frank Leopore’s Modern Monday series.

Both run the core package of Pox, Liliana, Souls, and 3-drop land destruction, but their approaches diverge significantly from there…

Kanaoka Yoshihiko's Myth Pox
-Low curve, 21 lands, 4 fetches
-Focuses on Myth and its synergy with 1-drops: Star/Spellbomb and Crack the Earth
-Runs main board Inquisition, in part to help protect Myth
-Uses spells for 3-drop land destruction, both to boost Myth and target basics

Matthew Currie's Mardu Pox
-higher curve, 27 lands (!), 8 fetches
-Because of 8 fetches can run 2x Boom with more reliable asymmetry
-Focuses on higher value 2-3 drops for better grinding & top-decking
-With no need to buff Myth he adds more creatures, Fulminator and Finks
-K Command gives lots of value by recurring these creatures
-Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a versatile monster, like Myth + Sorin in one package
-4x Lightning Helix keeps aggro at bay in conjunction with 2x MB wrath
-3-drop creatures + Gideon + burn make “turning the corner” faster and more reliable
-BUT (a big but) higher curve + occasional self land destruction can sometimes clog your hand with 3 drops while you have only 2 lands.

What are your thoughts on this? I’ve played with Currie’s list more than Yoshihiko’s at this point so I need your insight.

Based on the lists you've played with....

[1] How commonly do you feel constricted by your own land count?

[2] What turn (on average) do you hit 3 lands? 4 lands?

[3] Is that early enough to reliably cast the 4-drop walkers or wraths when they're needed for maximum impact?

[4] How often are your Pox casts breaking symmetry? Are there any guidelines on when its worth accepting a more symmetric pox? Sometimes it just feels like an edict that keeps me from playing my 3-drops.

[5] How else do these approaches compare? Are there other advantages to Yoshihiko’s list that I’m overlooking?

Since they’ve both enjoyed some small amount of tournament success I’m sure they’re both valid, but perhaps we can figure out some optimal approach.

Deathrite Jund happened, and the deck was abandoned in favor of Team Geist. According to some former pilots, Two things sealed the deck's fate:
1) The deck needed a much better backup one-drop. Steppe Lynx was much, much worse than Delver. You won most games you landed turn 1 Delver, and lost most games you didn't. You couldn't play Guide because you lost tempo by giving the opponent lands, and Figure of Destiny was just too slow.
2) Return to Ravnica came out, giving Modern Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Both of these cards were great against Delver decks. Shaman and Decay led to a lot more development and popularity of Melira Pod, which was a rough matchup, instead of the then popular Naya Pod, which was a good matchup. The increase in Jund and Melira Pod also led to Electrolyze being much more relevant in the format, which is both very good against UWR Tempo and an incentive to slow down their curve so they can use it as well.

Flash forward to 2016:
We now have the better 1 drop (Swiftspear) and the inclusion of Boros Charm helps to limit the damage Decay can do to our early threats. Pod is now gone, with CoCo in its place (and CoCo is a better matchup than Pod.)Manlands like Fumarole and top end cards like the Sword, Ellie, and Chandra make the deck more resilient in the late game. And the shadow of DRS is no longer upon the Modern format, so Jund, while it is still a rough M/U is much easier to handle than it was during the days of Shenhar era BoRemandos.

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Some feedback with my current 4C Humans list :





Main deck : I feel real close.

1/ The only moving slots are the 2 Abolishers at this point. The more I play the deck, the more Inspector and Recruiter felt underpowered. The reason of Grand Abolisher is it helps Fiend Hunter and Dromoka's Command to hit and not be blown out. It stops :
- Archbound Ravager in Affinity,
- Oblivion Stone and rocks in Tron,
- Removal spells in BGx and RBx decks,
- Chord of Calling and Collected Company in green decks.
So Abolisher also assures me to have safe attack steps, and slows down decks that would like to gain tempo during my turn. I'm not sold yet, but it's still better than Duskwatch Recruiter which is a big disappointment after testing. I don't think I'll come back to Thraben Inspector. The card is fine, no downside really, but not impactful enough once in real matches.

2/ Auriok Champion is a house MD. It shores up all the aggro MUs, and have utility against Jund and Grixis (aka block you pesky Kalitas, Tas and Angler !). In the aggro part, I feel like I need to win G1, then lose G2 on the draw and have a shot at G3 on the play. With no Aurioks, G1 is tougher, and the MUs felt too toss-dependant.
The synergy with Hanweir Garrison is real. To a lesser extent, with Coco and a flipped Mayor too !

3/ Dromoka's Command shores up aggro and combo, and Prison decks. It destroys Blood Moon (which wrecks me otherwise), Pyromancer's Ascension, Phyrexian Unlife, Prismatic Omen, Ghostly Prison. And also Eidolon of the Great Revel in Burn. Not too bad ! I won't come back to Path to Exile anytime soon.

4/ The manabase is cleaner this way. Yes I play more WW cards, that explains the 3rd basic Plains in place of Breeding Pool. It's simple : I never fetch that shockland ! It always felt out of place, useless, painful... I may suffer post-SB games since I bring in more blue cards, but I fairly doubt it.

Sideboard :

5/ Well combo MUs are painful, so Meddling Mage it is. Living End, Scapeshift, Grapeshot, Ad Nauseam... Mage is a good card there.

6/ Spell Pierce over Stubborn Denial. I lost once to Infect because he played well, and I had Denial. Pierce would've won me that match. I need that kind of effect in combo decks, and either those are super fast, or theey have removal, meaning I'll never have a 4-power creature at the moment I want to counter a key spell. Infect and Suicide kill by turn 3, it's close to impossible to grow a guy at 4-power.

7/ The presence of Vithian Renegades and Stony Silence is very complementary with the MD Dromoka's Commands.

The deck has game against all the Tier 1-2 decks. Weaknesses against Tron's wrath effects, Infect's goldfishes, Affinity's next-level pressure, maindeck wrath effects. Nothing specifically worse than the other tribal decks.
Blue Moon seemed to be almost unwinnable, but I didn't test again with Auriok + Abolisher + Commands. It should help.
Often felt one turn short against Tron, Jeskai, Merfolk.
Often felt powerless against a T3 clock, like Infect.

Been having reasonable success with this list:



Looking ahead, eight three-drops is probably too many for this deck. Will probably trim to four and fill in slots with Knight of the White Orchid and Student of Warfare

Repel the Abominable does a few interesting things :
it stops some combo kills like Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam, buys you a turn against Kiki, Grishoalbrand and Burn, so I assume it's a SB card at best.
In the same slot, I think Dromoka's Command is a better card if one runs green. This card can be maindeckable btw, since it does what the deck wants :
1- it clears the path (like PtE and Bolt to a certain extent).
2- it protects a cretaure or the entire board from red removal spells, and in the process buffs a Human.

About that I feel Hanweir Garrison needs a buff to be efficient. Too many games he appears and disappears in a glimpse. I like the synergy with Lightning Mauler very much !

@Sun_Fin : I think your list can run 1 fewer land. You should try and see if you get mana-screwed from there.

About the Bolt thing, Fiendslayer Paladin also doesn't die to Doom Blade, and I actually prefered him over Mirran Crusader in my low-curve lists. For the maindeck I mean.
Anafenza, the Foremost is the only one Human that is naturally Bolt-proof, Knight of the Reliquary needs to function in a 3/4-color deck with 8 fetchlands, minimum.
From there, it's obvious that we don't choose our 3-drop for its bolt-proof ability, but for what it does in our game plan. Evasion, CA and Tempo Gain appear to be more important than a big body. I'd never cut Mantis Rider for KotR for example, since Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant already fill the role of big dumb threats.

running at least Monastery Swiftspear is good, she's a good human even if you don't abuse her ability.

I think this is untrue. Swiftspear is played with success in Prowess, Delver, Burn, Suicide Zoo, which are decks that run 20+ non-creature spells.
A tribal Human deck as we discuss in this topic will never want that creature over the other 1-drops. It's gonna stay a 1/2 most of the time, which isn't good enough. From the moment you play 20+ non-creature spells, you're playing another archetype.

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Merfolk and Elves are much faster than humans in building a board (Aether Vial and Heritage Druid+dorks) and Merfolk also have disruption.

You can't compare Hanweir Garrison to either Elvish Archdruid or Merrow Reejerey which not only impact the board right away with the +1/1 anthem but also have very powerful and synergistic abilities in their respective tribes.
These two tribes also pack enough lords to help dodge bolt.

Overall I don't think that CoCo is the way to go with this deck

I took it to the full Rainbow:


The manabase hurts way less than you might think, between 2-6 dmg in one game. For this i get full access to all Humans and so the overall power-level of cards is really high for Modern standards.

SCD:

• Noble Hierarch
  
• Dark Confidant
  
• Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
  
• AEther Vial
  
• Lightning Bolt

These are all time favourites and don't need mor words.


Champion of the Parish grows faster and bigger than Experiment One
Mayor of Avabruck
Thalia's Lieutenant
These Lords are boath great. While Mayor can win the Game on it's own, he also brings some not so nice variance. Vial helps to flip him, but still you dont have total control over him. Lieutenant on the other side is not great on an empty board, but the counters rest on the other creatures even when it dies which is a great thing for a Lord.
Mantis Rider is my fav. topdeck and often brings the game to an end.
So is Reflector Mage, but a bit more depending on the board state.

I choose Aether Vial over Collected Company because it fits better with the Curve (many cc2's not so heavy cc3 drops). Also Collected Company doesn't like my Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

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