I advocated for a SSG ban quite a long time ago. Now here we are, with more and more starting to see that free mana is and has always been a problem. I once also advocated for an Eldrazi Temple ban alongside Eye of Ugin, which I'm still in favor of. To my belief, as many others, Temple isn't necessarily an unfair card, but it allows a midrange deck to exist that floors other midrange strategies unless they're trying to outclock(Death's Shadow), with really no one in competition to them, of the same degree. If you can't get the eldrazi midrange, you have to go over the top, and this is why we've seen such a massive uptick of Titan, in all of its forms, shoot across MODO in dailys before Death's Shadow started to warp the meta some. Then the various flavors of (Eldrazi) Tron tried to overstep on the other variants of Eldrazis. The continuous bleeding of Eldrazi into Eldrazi Tron, Bant, Taxes, and etc is simply the best midrange deck. Why not play, instead of any other midrange strategy, whatever flavor of the color wheel that you'd like in the form of Eldrazi? I mean, when's the last time you seen a deck maindeck four chalice of the voids and still compete without any issues? Vintage? Other warped formats? Sure, I get that Eldrazi online is trying to snuff out Cheerios, and that Chalice hits other various targets, but that's some heavy SB tech that doesn't seem to falter it's midrange strategy without every cycling like other various artifacts in these slots that others might argue to similar SB Maindeck tech. And yes, I'm aware of Moon strategies, but they aren't midranges.
Now, I'm sure you all have your opinions, and mock me or not if you shall. I'd like for you to hear me out, as well as others, and entertain the thought as you sift through the results and find that Eldrazi seems to still be a menance and warping the format around itself. The ceiling is not higher than what Eldrazi Tron can reach, with no midrange that Eldrazi midrange can't breach. If you can attest to it, you have to go the best of strategies underneath it(Affinity still struggles against it), or simply get with the best Wild Nacatl(Death's Shadow) that's got an impending ban on it faster than you're going to realize, even if it dodges the bullet this next round. If wizards continues to go with their trend, than you can expect eventually, one day or another, that Mox Opal, SSG, Death's Shadow, and Eldrazi Temple will all be banned. Sure, this is my opinion, and I might be very well be wrong on it. Just think back to this post if it happens though, and if not than maybe the format will be in a much better place and Wizards stops with their seemingly herding in these directions. I do enjoy the Eldrazi decks, but you're wrong if you think the Eldrazi decks will die simply because they lose the temple when they can still cast off of hard lands, birds of paradise, noble hierarchs, and Tron lands.
A non-legendary vendilion clique that can survive a bolt that exiles and comes out on turn two? A third turn reality smasher that doesn't care about your siege rhino, path of exile, and etc? Couple that all off when it gets big and slams out Ugins, Karns, Ulamog's, and etc? I'm not suggesting that all these are "un-fair", which I'm not strongly suggesting that they're unfair, get banned, I'm just stating in my opinion that if they continue to put up these results and give wizards the fodder that they like to show with how they ban things, slowly, but surely, will they do exactly that. Imagine how better Knight of the Reliquary, Zoo, Merfolk, Basic Jund, Abzan, Grixis, CoCo, Bant Spirits, and etc. would be if Eldrazi took a swift kick to the shin with an Eldrazi Temple ban.
That card literally has me freaking out. Not only does it showcase the obvious that we're getting a new Bolas, but that it works with Bolas cards! This card in my opinion is an auto-include into our lists. I cannot wait to see what other toys we might get. This is exciting news and I intend on heavily play testing this. What I love most about this is that it retrieves and sacs planeswalkers and that it doesn't target, allowing us to dodge cards like Leyline of Sanctity and spot graveyard removal.
I think counterspell would be safe in modern, and they wouldn't have to turn around an re-ban ancestral vision, simply because the worlds in which that counterspell was once legal vs what modern is like is vastly two separates beasts - even though I recognize that Legacy utilizes it from time to time in that same breath. I do respect the tremendous power that counterspell yields, but to me I do not think it would be grossly damaging in the modern format. Christ, look how fast this format has always largely been. I think a counterspell that is similar to thoughtseize would be safe, in the sense that it's powerful but has a withdraw. What about a counterspell that doesn't fit in the traditional blue decks, nor simply a blue-red variant(which is heavily what a lot of the blue decks are)? I would suggest that if they make a stronger counterpsell(arguably to what is already in the format), and maybe this wouldn't solve the issue and/or necessarily be stronger in its own right, that they dive into another color and make it have a withdraw. I would propose a blue-black counterspell that its caster loses two life. I'm not card creating on purpose, but simply suggesting that maybe if they delve a bit out and not go the normality of things might we get something that's possibly better balanced.
To follow up my point, what if we said that Dig Through Time costed additional colors? What if Treasure Cruise had a red tacked onto its cost, instead of purely blue that both of these cards are? Sure, they're still powerful cards, and some of these decks won't possibly even care about this, and still needed to have been banned, but it's the whole purpose of magic to have some things be restrictive and harder to play. Why not continue to diversify in the color-pie if the card is not safe enough to be purely one color? I understand that some of these cards are by "accident" and/or not simply to reflect "other formats" other than their "baby" standard. Not restrictive enough that it's virtually unplayable, but at least have withdraw backs instead of being straight stamped and easily accessible. At one point Duress was godly powerful of a card, long in the beginning days of magic, and then they made thoughtseize so much later, and we found an immensely more powerful card. Now, these are two different worlds, but I'm more so making the power creep reference.
These are some of my thoughts about it all, and that doesn't mean I'm correct in my thinking.
You're not being rude or upsetting me in any way or shape, so don't fret. I can get aggressive with my discussion, too, so forgive me if I come off negative, as I, too, don't mean to come off rude or what-have-you.
Now, as we are playing control we are playing a reactive list predominately. Or, rather, some of us are heavily playing reactive lists, even when lists leaning on proactive playing more seems to be the better game in Modern. You show me, for example, or just take a gander at the most successful true control lists throughout Modern's history. Lists that aren't focused on backup or forefront focused combo builds, or the ones leaning more midrange in strategy. In many cases, as we know, true control is dead and the lists that come up successful are very rare, or are hybrids of some form or another. The only lists we've came across that have been successful in Modern's history on a large note is the American Control lists, that we all know. Unless I'm mistaken or just forgetting something another. From what memory serves me, these pure control lists are highly reactive, even in the form of draw spells.
In this list this pilot uses 26 lands, with no cheap cantrips such as Serum Visions. Now, this is that pilot's play preference, and just because they won with the list in that meta doesn't mean it's true to this current meta or that the list was even correct then. Bare with me. Now we have Ancestral Visions, but many don't agree with the card's usage in these lists, or maybe even at this time. The truth in AV needing to be these lists or not has not be properly hashed out, but I personally thing it's not good enough for us. So moving back to Serum Visions as card selection. Serum Visions is okay, but it clearly is no ponder, which is arguably what we needs in these lists. It just isn't there enough for us, in my opinion, and from my play testing with it vs not has shown me time and time again it is better without it, as well as many numerous other lists of true control is Modern's history that has also chosen not to utilize the card. Even if you look at the pure UW control lists that have popped up during Modern's lifespan you'll see that they don't lean on Serum Visions, even when they're arguably more controlling than we are.
Now, shifting to the statement of cards like Spell Snare and/or Inquisition of Kozilek. These are two cards that I have played with at various times and will shift back to possibly depending on preference and/or meta, and I do agree more so that they can fit our decks vs possibly SV and/or AV. I do, however, disagree with the statement that, as a pure control list, that we have to be using these cards and/or doing anything for the first turn. That's each person's judgement call and/or the meta that allows such to give to fruition or whether or not it's the best call and/or the correct one. Spell Snare is a great card, as it does great damage against Burn, Bogles, and America Control, which are some of our hardest matchups. I've given my statement about Spell Snare, so I won't delve deeply back into it, but I think it simply isn't consistent enough and whiffs bad against other strings of decks in the meta. Inquisition of Kozilek is a great card, and discard is a great advantage for our decks. I mostly disagree with IoK, depending on the meta, because it becomes so dead for us late game, which is what our decks are going to go to. Now, that statement could be said about AV, where it shines so bright in refilling our hands. However, I'm still not sold on the card and I've played with it in the past. Maybe I'm incorrect about AV, and might change my mind, but I'm thinking not.
Again, I disagree with the statement that we have to have such powerful or not so powerful one-drop spells and trying to do things in the first turns of our games. If you look at other pure control lists, even they get away without having to do anything on turn one, even if they can possibly do something. These four cards simply don't offer enough consistency for us, especially in decks that we have to have the correct things at all stages of the games. IoK and Spell Snare, as well as SV and AV, can simply do nothing late game. SV can do more late game, arguably late game, than the rest when drawing and playing it because it can replace itself(yes, I know that AV does more late game too, but you have to fire it off early game). What's it replacing if it simply draws you something else that you don't need and/or want when it simply could have been replaced with that card or something potentially better? Have you ever played Legacy, or seen others play Legacy, and seen them fire off a Brainstorm as quickly as possible in the first few turns? It's almost habitual tendency to fire it off, because it's always a great card, but as an old Vintage and Legacy player, as you might have encountered, heard, and/or even agree with, that simply because you have the brainstorm doesn't simply mean you need to fire it off when you can, even if the other opponent isn't doing something. It isn't that you have to be doing something, especially when that something isn't adequate enough at accomplishing much, even more so if the set back late game is possibly back-breaking for you or just simply not enough to hash out the game and/or win. These other lists, such as Jund, RG Tron, Burn, and etc that are doing proactive things in the first few turns, as you know, simply are not us and aren't the same play style. Besides, not only are the cards powerful, but they're powerful because of those lists and they can afford such. Even if we can afford to take a whiff for the greater potential to catch more, with such polarizing cards like Spell Snare, doesn't mean it's best for a deck like us to take that risk in doing so.
Please, I encourage discussion deeply into these matters and people's opinions about them. This doesn't mean I'm correct, but maybe you're all wrong too. Maybe we're all wrong. Maybe our line of thinking needs to revert back to the original play styles of control, instead of trying to do what everyone else is doing and/or simply doing it because it's there and it seems like the only choice we have.
That I'm uncertain of at this time. Since this is a new list, I'm not entirely sure how it fairs up against burn - and I know that's one of our worst matchups. I'm hoping the Duress and Dispel from the sideboard can soak up some of their more threatening spells, taking the slots of cards maindeck that might not best be suited for the matchup. I hope to just dodge burn, but if it's an issue than I'll try to go back to cards like Tribute to Hunger and/or Batterskull.
Lil Bolas:
You just keep doing your thing and we'll see you when we see you.
When Spell Snare is good, it's great, but when Spell Snare is bad, it's horrific. Such a polarizing card, and to top-deck it and it do nothing against a wide range of decks in the format with mana all across the board is just a "no" for me. I understand the power of Spell Snare, and I get its purpose, but it's not really that great. It can be a two of in a particular field, but it isn't something I'm willing to sacrifice when I want consistency. I'm not that honestly concerned about a tarmo that I can't just terminate or etc. Besides, in my experience, I've hardly ever lost a matchup to Jund decks, and that includes at 50Ks and/or GPs were I've played them back-to-back and rounded them out. Now, Jund has stepped up its game lately, but with the new spells they've gotten it only goes to show how worse Spell Snare is in those matchups. Spell Snare shines best, in my opinion, against opposing Snapcaster decks.
Having access to all the colors on turn two and/or three can be rough on occasions, but largely it's not and it doesn't put me behind. It's only particularly rough if I have the creature lands in the hand and that somehow sets me back against a fast deck, say like infect or something another. I honestly wouldn't say it's hard to acquire all three by then, especially by turn four.
To the Tron statement, I can see the blight with why I don't have Crumble to Dust or what-have-you. Not having to worry about remand, spell snare, and/or mana leak whiffing against Tron, countersquall and counterflux do more than enough damage to snaring up their spells. Plus, with their thought-knots taking the 2 or so Crumbles from me can be rather painful, and it's exiled. I'm only really concerned against the fast Karns, which come out too quickly before a Crumble would be casted. Duress helps from the board in this department, and Duress taking that slot hits a lot of other decks too, such as burn, combo, control, and/or whatever else.
I try to balance out the creature removal post board against decks where they'd otherwise do nothing. This is why I have two negates, along with the other spells, to cycle all the many creature removals for counter magic against the control and/or combo decks.
Kitchen Finks is annoying, but nothing Electrolyze and/or Snapcaster can't keep under control, along with all the other removal. Anger is optimal against the abzan company decks, and I might consider a second for the board since they're soaking a lot of the meta. Voice is far worse for me to see, in my opinion, than a Kitchen Finks, but luckily those seem to be seeing less play. Kitchen Finks doesn't ever really get out of hand for me, honestly, and it's no worse than our Snapcasters keeping pinned down. Hitting one Finks, with say a bolt or whatever on their combat, convinces them to put more creatures onto the battlefield, which then get swept up by Damnation.
This is my Cruel Control list. Feel free to comment on it.
I don't run Ancestral Vision because it's too slow for the meta, in my opinion; and as we all know it's not great late game. I tried Serum Visions for a while, but that card isn't good enough for me personally in these pure control lists. Even the mainline America control lists that have won in the past never played Serum Visions - but I know there are some instances that did run it or of the like. Since I've been playing with Serum Visions in recent months it has just been so lack luster for me that I often wished it were another spell instead of trying to dig for some, even lands that I slimmed some on for the cards. Also, shying on the lands due to this type of draw card just left me in some games with missing land drops, especially against the decks that destroy our lands. I love cards like Kalitas and Tasigur, but I'm running without them. Being as there's so much spot removal in this heavy aggro meta(path, burn, and terminates), that I often wished they were another damnation - which would just kill those creatures if they were on the board anyways. I love Kolaghan's Command, but using it heavily as a defense to keep these creatures included is best suited for the Grixis Midrange decks to do, and not us in my opinion. However, with all that said I don't frown upon them maindeck and/or sideboard, as those two creatures are powerful cards left unchecked.
Counterflux and Countersquall, as 4 of for each, might heavily be frowned upon by many, and I can understand as to why that is. This is my play preference at the moment and I can see arguments against it very much. Many of us have issues with finding the perfect selection of counter magic, as what we have in the format is so polarizing, as well as all-over-the-place, that it can be difficult deciding which counters and which numbers to have. I don't blame any for disliking my choice here and them choosing their own style. I'm not saying I'm correct with my selection, but if I were to change it any it'd merely slim the numbers but never dropping them from the maindeck at this time. Counterflux is so backbreaking against control and combo decks in the maindeck, with such a significant number to back it up, that it goes to the statement of "I'm winning these counter-wars, and your SB isn't packing enough against me." Resolving game ones in such a fashion against these control and combo decks leaves them with hardly anything to say post board - which I love. Counterquall is great against Lilianas and Karns, as well as other cards, early and late game simply saying "No", while paining them. Countersquall gives the race should we be in an attrition war of pecking damage here and there. My deck is able to support these 2 counterspells so heavily due to my heavy base of creature removal.
My SB is not set in stone entirely, but some of those cards hardly ever leave. I work Ashiok in and out of Maindeck and Sideboard because I absolutely love the card, but it's hard to find when the card is correct in the metas. There's been plenty of games where I've single-handedly won with Ashiok against Scapeshift and Gifts decks, on more than one occasion against various players. Ashiok is an absolutely amazing card against creature decks, and even does some damage against control decks should they rely on big threats and/or let the planeswalker go unchecked. I will more than likely try to include Ashiok once more as a 2 of maindeck and/or sideboard. I go back and forth between maindeck and sideboard to include at least 2 sacrifice instants, such as Far/Away and/or Tribute to Hunger. Sometimes I SB 3-4 Leyline of the Void depending on how much I want to try and hate out the heavy-dependent/reliant graveyard strategies. Leyline of the Void also crushes Grixis midrange strategies. I will more than likely work a second Anger of the Gods into the sideboard to deal with the heavy-meta Collected Company Abzan decks.
Also, I'm not sure how many of you that have used Rakdos Charm in this manner, but I've done it more than once: let a player stack up creatures on the battlefield only to fire off Rakdos Charm and choose "each creature deals 1 damage to its controller". There's been plenty of times my opponent was playing Living End and expecting me to exile their graveyard, only to let them resolve it and wipe them out with the charm's last ability. Not only that, but being as we're encountering Collected Company, Rally the Ancestors, Return to the Ranks, Sword of the Meek(if you fire it off twice), Tokens, and other various aggro decks, it is quite possible to end the game with a charm, especially backed with the other damage(loss of life) spells. Playing charm, then snapcaster into charm, is quite amusing as a fast way to kill an aggro deck that surprises you at the end of your turn or during their turn with a wide amount of creatures. Now of course that is harder to do vs abzan company and their sac outlet creatures, thus thinning their heard as not to die, or if living end were to fire off again.
I want my cards so that my deck is optimized to (hopefully) not lose to creature decks game one, and thereafter, with counterspells to either win the arguments early or late game, with the upside of doing damage(loss of life). Bolts, Squalls, Electrolyzes, & K Commands = 30 points of damamge, not including other threats like Cruel, Snap, Creature lands, and Keranos.
Made the changes you suggested, as well as made the deck closer to what the deck Lil_Bolas linked to. I'm having a lot of fun! Still need to invest in Scalding Tarns, since my mana base is more [mc]UB[/mc] now, but otherwise it's pretty good.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar have been surprisingly useful as a 1-of in the main and 1 in the side. Makes Token match-ups much more tolerable. Does anyone have any thoughts on Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet? I picked one up recently and stuck him in the sb, but I'm not sure how good he is in Cruel Control. Any experiences with him to share?
I run 2 Scalding Tarn, 2 Bloodstained Mire, and 4 Polluted Delta. If you have 4 Delta, you can honestly run 4 Bloodstained over Tarn. Pia and Kiran is wonderful maindeck and/or SB. Kalitas I've maindecked but I've yet to play magic with it so I cannot comment at this moment. It may not stay maindeck with me, but for testing purposes it's going to. I may SB after all the testing is over.
Hello, all. Lurked here for a little while but this is my first time posting. Been building a Cruel Control deck, since it's in my favorite colors, and I want to improve it to the point where I can start going into tourneys on MTGO. Just traded in a bunch of my cards I stopped using for some extra tix and I've built a fairly solid deck thus far, I think:
I've tried out Mystical Teachings for the deck, but I found it too slow against most of my opponents, so I dropped it. Also not entirely sure about Obsy. I used Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker prior to him, but Baby Bolas doesn't feel as powerful or as fun to use as him. Can Big Bad Bolas work in this current metagame, or is he just too slow a finisher? And what could I use over Ob Nixilis?
EDIT: PLEASE don't suggest Jace, Vryn's Prodigy! He's well over 90 tix on MTGO, and there's no way in hell I'm spending/trading that much away to use him.
I suggest dropping the third Cryptic Command for a second Damnation.
Also, I highly suggest giving Ashiok a try. That card is a tough cookie at times for people to deal with. I've won games single-handed against Scapeshift and Gifts due to that walker, among other decks. Really good against creature decks, obviously, while still being strong against control decks.
Nicol Bolas is only for flavor really, despite how powerful the card is IF it lands, as you'd be better off with just strictly Cruel. I play Nicol in the sideboard just for fun. Format is way too fast and hard to land a Nicol Bolas, and against various board states he simply does nothing whereas a Cruel does much more given the costs.
I'd also remove the Firespout from the SB for something like Anger of the Gods.
Snapcaster Mage will one day eat a ban, I firmly see this happening down the road. I think Jace(flip) is a clear indicator to that. Jace isn't as splashable as snapcaster and is the replacement for use for deck diversity.
I'm not confusing it, because various lists are ramping into big creatures. 6+ cmc are big creatures. The other builds are running 5- cmc creatures, with the 6+ cmc creatures in the side boards. So, technically, they are all running large creatures. Plus, there clearly are X cmc creatures in lists that get used as "big" creatures if they are so desired to be.
I remember when G/R Tron was birthing up and people said it wouldn't overtake the U/W lists that existed. Did any of you see the PTQ that a G/R Eldrazi deck took down? It ran Kozilek's Return and Ancient Stirrings.
Now, I'm sure you all have your opinions, and mock me or not if you shall. I'd like for you to hear me out, as well as others, and entertain the thought as you sift through the results and find that Eldrazi seems to still be a menance and warping the format around itself. The ceiling is not higher than what Eldrazi Tron can reach, with no midrange that Eldrazi midrange can't breach. If you can attest to it, you have to go the best of strategies underneath it(Affinity still struggles against it), or simply get with the best Wild Nacatl(Death's Shadow) that's got an impending ban on it faster than you're going to realize, even if it dodges the bullet this next round. If wizards continues to go with their trend, than you can expect eventually, one day or another, that Mox Opal, SSG, Death's Shadow, and Eldrazi Temple will all be banned. Sure, this is my opinion, and I might be very well be wrong on it. Just think back to this post if it happens though, and if not than maybe the format will be in a much better place and Wizards stops with their seemingly herding in these directions. I do enjoy the Eldrazi decks, but you're wrong if you think the Eldrazi decks will die simply because they lose the temple when they can still cast off of hard lands, birds of paradise, noble hierarchs, and Tron lands.
A non-legendary vendilion clique that can survive a bolt that exiles and comes out on turn two? A third turn reality smasher that doesn't care about your siege rhino, path of exile, and etc? Couple that all off when it gets big and slams out Ugins, Karns, Ulamog's, and etc? I'm not suggesting that all these are "un-fair", which I'm not strongly suggesting that they're unfair, get banned, I'm just stating in my opinion that if they continue to put up these results and give wizards the fodder that they like to show with how they ban things, slowly, but surely, will they do exactly that. Imagine how better Knight of the Reliquary, Zoo, Merfolk, Basic Jund, Abzan, Grixis, CoCo, Bant Spirits, and etc. would be if Eldrazi took a swift kick to the shin with an Eldrazi Temple ban.
Wow! Finally! We finally have a very powerful red walker. This is monumental. The art and timing is siiick.
To follow up my point, what if we said that Dig Through Time costed additional colors? What if Treasure Cruise had a red tacked onto its cost, instead of purely blue that both of these cards are? Sure, they're still powerful cards, and some of these decks won't possibly even care about this, and still needed to have been banned, but it's the whole purpose of magic to have some things be restrictive and harder to play. Why not continue to diversify in the color-pie if the card is not safe enough to be purely one color? I understand that some of these cards are by "accident" and/or not simply to reflect "other formats" other than their "baby" standard. Not restrictive enough that it's virtually unplayable, but at least have withdraw backs instead of being straight stamped and easily accessible. At one point Duress was godly powerful of a card, long in the beginning days of magic, and then they made thoughtseize so much later, and we found an immensely more powerful card. Now, these are two different worlds, but I'm more so making the power creep reference.
These are some of my thoughts about it all, and that doesn't mean I'm correct in my thinking.
Now, as we are playing control we are playing a reactive list predominately. Or, rather, some of us are heavily playing reactive lists, even when lists leaning on proactive playing more seems to be the better game in Modern. You show me, for example, or just take a gander at the most successful true control lists throughout Modern's history. Lists that aren't focused on backup or forefront focused combo builds, or the ones leaning more midrange in strategy. In many cases, as we know, true control is dead and the lists that come up successful are very rare, or are hybrids of some form or another. The only lists we've came across that have been successful in Modern's history on a large note is the American Control lists, that we all know. Unless I'm mistaken or just forgetting something another. From what memory serves me, these pure control lists are highly reactive, even in the form of draw spells.
Let's focus for a moment on a list, or rather, let me mention this one:
Pro Tour Born of the Gods, Shaun McLaren, America Control -
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1187170
In this list this pilot uses 26 lands, with no cheap cantrips such as Serum Visions. Now, this is that pilot's play preference, and just because they won with the list in that meta doesn't mean it's true to this current meta or that the list was even correct then. Bare with me. Now we have Ancestral Visions, but many don't agree with the card's usage in these lists, or maybe even at this time. The truth in AV needing to be these lists or not has not be properly hashed out, but I personally thing it's not good enough for us. So moving back to Serum Visions as card selection. Serum Visions is okay, but it clearly is no ponder, which is arguably what we needs in these lists. It just isn't there enough for us, in my opinion, and from my play testing with it vs not has shown me time and time again it is better without it, as well as many numerous other lists of true control is Modern's history that has also chosen not to utilize the card. Even if you look at the pure UW control lists that have popped up during Modern's lifespan you'll see that they don't lean on Serum Visions, even when they're arguably more controlling than we are.
Now, shifting to the statement of cards like Spell Snare and/or Inquisition of Kozilek. These are two cards that I have played with at various times and will shift back to possibly depending on preference and/or meta, and I do agree more so that they can fit our decks vs possibly SV and/or AV. I do, however, disagree with the statement that, as a pure control list, that we have to be using these cards and/or doing anything for the first turn. That's each person's judgement call and/or the meta that allows such to give to fruition or whether or not it's the best call and/or the correct one. Spell Snare is a great card, as it does great damage against Burn, Bogles, and America Control, which are some of our hardest matchups. I've given my statement about Spell Snare, so I won't delve deeply back into it, but I think it simply isn't consistent enough and whiffs bad against other strings of decks in the meta. Inquisition of Kozilek is a great card, and discard is a great advantage for our decks. I mostly disagree with IoK, depending on the meta, because it becomes so dead for us late game, which is what our decks are going to go to. Now, that statement could be said about AV, where it shines so bright in refilling our hands. However, I'm still not sold on the card and I've played with it in the past. Maybe I'm incorrect about AV, and might change my mind, but I'm thinking not.
Again, I disagree with the statement that we have to have such powerful or not so powerful one-drop spells and trying to do things in the first turns of our games. If you look at other pure control lists, even they get away without having to do anything on turn one, even if they can possibly do something. These four cards simply don't offer enough consistency for us, especially in decks that we have to have the correct things at all stages of the games. IoK and Spell Snare, as well as SV and AV, can simply do nothing late game. SV can do more late game, arguably late game, than the rest when drawing and playing it because it can replace itself(yes, I know that AV does more late game too, but you have to fire it off early game). What's it replacing if it simply draws you something else that you don't need and/or want when it simply could have been replaced with that card or something potentially better? Have you ever played Legacy, or seen others play Legacy, and seen them fire off a Brainstorm as quickly as possible in the first few turns? It's almost habitual tendency to fire it off, because it's always a great card, but as an old Vintage and Legacy player, as you might have encountered, heard, and/or even agree with, that simply because you have the brainstorm doesn't simply mean you need to fire it off when you can, even if the other opponent isn't doing something. It isn't that you have to be doing something, especially when that something isn't adequate enough at accomplishing much, even more so if the set back late game is possibly back-breaking for you or just simply not enough to hash out the game and/or win. These other lists, such as Jund, RG Tron, Burn, and etc that are doing proactive things in the first few turns, as you know, simply are not us and aren't the same play style. Besides, not only are the cards powerful, but they're powerful because of those lists and they can afford such. Even if we can afford to take a whiff for the greater potential to catch more, with such polarizing cards like Spell Snare, doesn't mean it's best for a deck like us to take that risk in doing so.
Please, I encourage discussion deeply into these matters and people's opinions about them. This doesn't mean I'm correct, but maybe you're all wrong too. Maybe we're all wrong. Maybe our line of thinking needs to revert back to the original play styles of control, instead of trying to do what everyone else is doing and/or simply doing it because it's there and it seems like the only choice we have.
That I'm uncertain of at this time. Since this is a new list, I'm not entirely sure how it fairs up against burn - and I know that's one of our worst matchups. I'm hoping the Duress and Dispel from the sideboard can soak up some of their more threatening spells, taking the slots of cards maindeck that might not best be suited for the matchup. I hope to just dodge burn, but if it's an issue than I'll try to go back to cards like Tribute to Hunger and/or Batterskull.
Lil Bolas:
You just keep doing your thing and we'll see you when we see you.
Having access to all the colors on turn two and/or three can be rough on occasions, but largely it's not and it doesn't put me behind. It's only particularly rough if I have the creature lands in the hand and that somehow sets me back against a fast deck, say like infect or something another. I honestly wouldn't say it's hard to acquire all three by then, especially by turn four.
To the Tron statement, I can see the blight with why I don't have Crumble to Dust or what-have-you. Not having to worry about remand, spell snare, and/or mana leak whiffing against Tron, countersquall and counterflux do more than enough damage to snaring up their spells. Plus, with their thought-knots taking the 2 or so Crumbles from me can be rather painful, and it's exiled. I'm only really concerned against the fast Karns, which come out too quickly before a Crumble would be casted. Duress helps from the board in this department, and Duress taking that slot hits a lot of other decks too, such as burn, combo, control, and/or whatever else.
I try to balance out the creature removal post board against decks where they'd otherwise do nothing. This is why I have two negates, along with the other spells, to cycle all the many creature removals for counter magic against the control and/or combo decks.
Kitchen Finks is annoying, but nothing Electrolyze and/or Snapcaster can't keep under control, along with all the other removal. Anger is optimal against the abzan company decks, and I might consider a second for the board since they're soaking a lot of the meta. Voice is far worse for me to see, in my opinion, than a Kitchen Finks, but luckily those seem to be seeing less play. Kitchen Finks doesn't ever really get out of hand for me, honestly, and it's no worse than our Snapcasters keeping pinned down. Hitting one Finks, with say a bolt or whatever on their combat, convinces them to put more creatures onto the battlefield, which then get swept up by Damnation.
4 Counterflux
4 Countersquall
3 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
Sorcery (5)
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Damnation
Creature (5)
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Snapcaster Mage
Lands (26)
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Smoldering Marsh
2 Steam Vents
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Swamp
2 Wandering Fumarole
1 Watery Grave
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
2 Dreadbore
3 Duress
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
3 Rakdos Charm
1 Slaughter Games
This is my Cruel Control list. Feel free to comment on it.
I don't run Ancestral Vision because it's too slow for the meta, in my opinion; and as we all know it's not great late game. I tried Serum Visions for a while, but that card isn't good enough for me personally in these pure control lists. Even the mainline America control lists that have won in the past never played Serum Visions - but I know there are some instances that did run it or of the like. Since I've been playing with Serum Visions in recent months it has just been so lack luster for me that I often wished it were another spell instead of trying to dig for some, even lands that I slimmed some on for the cards. Also, shying on the lands due to this type of draw card just left me in some games with missing land drops, especially against the decks that destroy our lands. I love cards like Kalitas and Tasigur, but I'm running without them. Being as there's so much spot removal in this heavy aggro meta(path, burn, and terminates), that I often wished they were another damnation - which would just kill those creatures if they were on the board anyways. I love Kolaghan's Command, but using it heavily as a defense to keep these creatures included is best suited for the Grixis Midrange decks to do, and not us in my opinion. However, with all that said I don't frown upon them maindeck and/or sideboard, as those two creatures are powerful cards left unchecked.
Counterflux and Countersquall, as 4 of for each, might heavily be frowned upon by many, and I can understand as to why that is. This is my play preference at the moment and I can see arguments against it very much. Many of us have issues with finding the perfect selection of counter magic, as what we have in the format is so polarizing, as well as all-over-the-place, that it can be difficult deciding which counters and which numbers to have. I don't blame any for disliking my choice here and them choosing their own style. I'm not saying I'm correct with my selection, but if I were to change it any it'd merely slim the numbers but never dropping them from the maindeck at this time. Counterflux is so backbreaking against control and combo decks in the maindeck, with such a significant number to back it up, that it goes to the statement of "I'm winning these counter-wars, and your SB isn't packing enough against me." Resolving game ones in such a fashion against these control and combo decks leaves them with hardly anything to say post board - which I love. Counterquall is great against Lilianas and Karns, as well as other cards, early and late game simply saying "No", while paining them. Countersquall gives the race should we be in an attrition war of pecking damage here and there. My deck is able to support these 2 counterspells so heavily due to my heavy base of creature removal.
My SB is not set in stone entirely, but some of those cards hardly ever leave. I work Ashiok in and out of Maindeck and Sideboard because I absolutely love the card, but it's hard to find when the card is correct in the metas. There's been plenty of games where I've single-handedly won with Ashiok against Scapeshift and Gifts decks, on more than one occasion against various players. Ashiok is an absolutely amazing card against creature decks, and even does some damage against control decks should they rely on big threats and/or let the planeswalker go unchecked. I will more than likely try to include Ashiok once more as a 2 of maindeck and/or sideboard. I go back and forth between maindeck and sideboard to include at least 2 sacrifice instants, such as Far/Away and/or Tribute to Hunger. Sometimes I SB 3-4 Leyline of the Void depending on how much I want to try and hate out the heavy-dependent/reliant graveyard strategies. Leyline of the Void also crushes Grixis midrange strategies. I will more than likely work a second Anger of the Gods into the sideboard to deal with the heavy-meta Collected Company Abzan decks.
Also, I'm not sure how many of you that have used Rakdos Charm in this manner, but I've done it more than once: let a player stack up creatures on the battlefield only to fire off Rakdos Charm and choose "each creature deals 1 damage to its controller". There's been plenty of times my opponent was playing Living End and expecting me to exile their graveyard, only to let them resolve it and wipe them out with the charm's last ability. Not only that, but being as we're encountering Collected Company, Rally the Ancestors, Return to the Ranks, Sword of the Meek(if you fire it off twice), Tokens, and other various aggro decks, it is quite possible to end the game with a charm, especially backed with the other damage(loss of life) spells. Playing charm, then snapcaster into charm, is quite amusing as a fast way to kill an aggro deck that surprises you at the end of your turn or during their turn with a wide amount of creatures. Now of course that is harder to do vs abzan company and their sac outlet creatures, thus thinning their heard as not to die, or if living end were to fire off again.
I want my cards so that my deck is optimized to (hopefully) not lose to creature decks game one, and thereafter, with counterspells to either win the arguments early or late game, with the upside of doing damage(loss of life). Bolts, Squalls, Electrolyzes, & K Commands = 30 points of damamge, not including other threats like Cruel, Snap, Creature lands, and Keranos.
Fire away! : D
I'll review over all this more in time this weekend, but I like what I see thus far. Great job.
I'm happy to see you'll be taking the head over this thread.
I run 2 Scalding Tarn, 2 Bloodstained Mire, and 4 Polluted Delta. If you have 4 Delta, you can honestly run 4 Bloodstained over Tarn. Pia and Kiran is wonderful maindeck and/or SB. Kalitas I've maindecked but I've yet to play magic with it so I cannot comment at this moment. It may not stay maindeck with me, but for testing purposes it's going to. I may SB after all the testing is over.
I'm glad to read that others are in support of banning SSG.
I suggest dropping the third Cryptic Command for a second Damnation.
Also, I highly suggest giving Ashiok a try. That card is a tough cookie at times for people to deal with. I've won games single-handed against Scapeshift and Gifts due to that walker, among other decks. Really good against creature decks, obviously, while still being strong against control decks.
Nicol Bolas is only for flavor really, despite how powerful the card is IF it lands, as you'd be better off with just strictly Cruel. I play Nicol in the sideboard just for fun. Format is way too fast and hard to land a Nicol Bolas, and against various board states he simply does nothing whereas a Cruel does much more given the costs.
I'd also remove the Firespout from the SB for something like Anger of the Gods.
I remember when G/R Tron was birthing up and people said it wouldn't overtake the U/W lists that existed. Did any of you see the PTQ that a G/R Eldrazi deck took down? It ran Kozilek's Return and Ancient Stirrings.
Here -
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-ptq-2016-02-07