Actually you can totally whiff on it. And because of sorcery speed it likely will.
Considering it's black, chances are you know your opponent's hand from a t1 discard spell already, which would help of course.
But yeah, going for that in the dark is rather risky and you really gotta ask yourself "do I want to turn this card into a instant & sorcery only duress?", as it's not just "oh well, I wasted one mode of the spell", but it also costs you another card or at least this card. ^^
To be fair, if it hits it's an ok card (the drain mode is p bad in any case though) and again decks like Burn or Delver (Remand aside which is just.. rip) that boast shockable creatures and spells it's probably quite nice.
But as soon as you see Islands on the other side of the table... beware of using more than 1 mode, because counters just wreck this card.
At best brutality can be a 2 for 2/3 for 3 in decks like grixis control or other graveyard based decks that want cards in their graveyards. You can whiff on this discard just like you can whiff on any other sorcery speed discard, and yet they are still played.
They are because "cmc >4" and "non-creature" are broad enough to rarely whiff in Modern.
And even "non-creature" is often only played in the sideboard.
And while Grixis Delver may be able to reduce the card possible disadvantage or parity, for the moment it's still just that.
Even if it's not completely lost, you still /do/ lose resources. Yes you can snap back that bolt, but that still costs you have your bolt in that case and that is only if you actually want to / get to flash it back.
Yes, it has very broad applications, but all of those on their own are /very/ mediocre.
Vs control a 2 mana Duress just opens you up for Spell Snare that may be sitting in their hand later in the game, against aggro 2 mana Sorcery Disfigure is mediocre as well. If you pay 2 mana to kill a creature, you really want to kill any creature or at least most of them.
Pay 1 mana more and you can even give allof them -2/-2.
If you play Grixis, why run this over Terminate as your 2 mana removal?
Or over Kommand as a value card? What slot would this go in? (Honest question, I'm not up to date on Grixis Delver and similar variants.)
Sure it enables Kommand and Snappy value, but.... that usually happens in the games and the deck in general anyway.
E.g. Turning your bolt into a pseudo-Duress isn't that great, even if you "can just snap/jace, vp it back later". It's still resources spent and you don't generally get immediate value out of it.
It's very slow and not really grindy at that, but falls off quite harshly later on in the game.
Idk, for me this card is too broad and too mediocre in it's width at that. Flexibility is very nice, yes, but not if it ends up being flexible between underwhelming options at a very real cost.
If it was highly specialized against one sort of strategy I could see it as a nice sb option, but like this, where 1-2 modes are usually dead or at least very underwhelming... I'm really not convinced.
Do you know what's worse than a 2 mana sorcery speed duress? A 3 mana instant that shocks and does raven's crime. Super unplayable. It's strictly a worse blightning and that doesn't even see play. I remember when you guys said that when Kolaghan's command was spoiled and I was laughing as a I bought a playset for $4. Evaluating a versatile card for one of it's abilities is a trap. I feel like people will fall into the trap again by saying that new liliana isn't very good when she is.
The thing is, a 3 mana instant Raven's Crime (which is a bunch better than a regular Raven's Crime [rebuying it aside]) with a shock is an easy 2-1.
And you can do fun shenanigans like kill their Goyf after they bolted yours while getting yours back, e.g.
Instant speed helps a lot.
The best Collective Brutality can be is a 1-1, 2-2, 3-3.
And at worst you 2-1 yourself, should the pseudo-Duress mode miss.
In a deck like Dredge or similar gy centric decks it might find a home, but as a generic removal / disruption spell... I'm not quite sold on it yet.
Note that the Flashback of Think Twice does not trigger Harness the Storm.
While you can cycle any Think Twice in the yard past the 1st one, Take Inventory becomes quite silly with it.
1 in the yard with HtS out lets you draw 4 cards for 2, 2 in the yard 6.
It's pretty insane, even if it is Sorcery speed and the 1st one is somewhat clunky.
I'm really not convinced a 2 mana, Sorcery speed Disfigure will help you much against aggro.
Seems just SOOO much worse.
2 mana, a lot more narrow Duress seems not super hype either, but... ok I guess.
And draining 2 for a card or for 2 is just really bad and only useful in very niche cases. :/
I guess it becomes ok if you escalate it actually hit with the Duress mode, making it just a sorcery speed disfigure and narrower Duress.
But that still seems not overly amazing.
Perhaps the flexibility will make it worth it though.
LotV is leagues better in Jund-Style varients. I try not to be the "this new card sux" guy, but I am wholly disappointed with last hope lily, though the art is amazing. Now Lily's oath, on the other hand, that may be worth exploring.
I'm not sure if Fleshbag Marauder is really a card to consider.
If you want an edict effect there are better ones around and the 2nd mode isn't that amazing either.
New Lili is... nice, but I think her biggest problems are that she's Liliana, hence can't be out with old Lili at the same time, and finding spots for her.
If we could have both out at once... oh boy. Ruthlessly pitch to LotV, get back your stuff with LtLH... yummy.
But since we can, LotV just covers a lot more ground.
I'm playing more Midrange than Control in my BUG list, so no counters and such fluff that work poorly with LotV, but if you are heavy into counterspells and playing more reactively, I can see new Lili being a bit better, because you likely won't play LotV, or at least not 4 copies I imagine.
Then again, in that case Jace, Vryn's Prodigy might still be better, though he and LtLH can work together nicely.
Why would you run her over Liliana of the Veil in a Rock deck? .-.
LotV is WAY stronger.
New Lili's +1 is rather mediocre, though it can turn Disfigures into pseudo Lighting Bolts and be ok in some situations.
But her -2 doesn't really do a lot.
In BUG you don't need recursion as much, thanks to the tons of card draw you can run and how sticky your creatures are to begin with.
And on an empty board she doesn't do much either.
Sure, her ultimate wins the game quickly, but so does LotV's, but the sacrificing part can also just end the game for e.g. combo decks or big mana decks right then and there, and she gets it a turn sooner, while keeping opponents hellbent.
If you could have both out at once I'd try 1-2 in my BUG midrange deck,tbh, but if I have to choose between the two, LotV all the way.
So, Yes, new Lili is decent at grinding, but old Lili just does a lot more against a lot more achetypes (mainly Combo and Control, who have a much harder time sculpting their hand or gaining card advantage).
Being able to name Lands and by that shut down manlands, utility lands like Ghost Quarter or Township or even the opponent's fetches are further points that make Needle more versatile than Revoker, in Modern.
Revoker's ability to shut off mana abilities is hardly relevant here, without an Eggs deck being good.
And "Revoking the Bird" is not really a great play... :b
Let's talk about a more troubling trend: "Respond". It's the single most hated word in online play. Completely unnecessary and a total waste of keyboard clicks.
I'm still trying to understand this comment in online play. What is the purpose? If a player is 'responding', then he is responding. The necessity of announcing it seems...unnecessary. I guess the closest comparison would be is someone stated, "I am going to say something", and then said something. Just...Do...It. You want to cast a bolt, then do so. Don't say, 'I'm going to cast an instant' before....casting a bolt.
jus' sayin'
I'm assuming non-automated programs here, since on Modo that seems to make no sense indeed.
On Cockatrice however (mind you I have only played with friends so far, so I can only imagine) it sounds sensible.
Idk at what pace people play there, but if you wanna respond, but aren't immediately sure how or would just like a second to think it through again, then "Respond" or "responding" or so seems totally fine.
It just says "Wait a sec, I want to do something.", which seems a lot better than then being silent and 5-10 seconds later, when you're already in the next step or resolving the next spell, they wanna go back and do their thing.
Btw I felt much more comfortable with an 18 Lands build recently. Also going up to 9 mill rocks insteaf of playing Bauble made sideboarding slightly easier for me.
I saw Profane Memento in the UB Mill Sideboard. Might this be an option for Lantern?
I don't think Profane Memento works well in Lantern.
In Mill they can easily play something like UB: Mill 10, gain 6+ life.
Against creature heavy decks that can be all it needs to buy the extra turn or two to "burn" them out.
Lantern would have the lifegain a lot slower and once the Bridge is up, you probably want them to draw their creatures, so you can make doubly sure they don't draw burn or artifact removal instead.
Whereas without Bridge chances are you want to mill yourself towards the Bridge or similar things.
In short, Mill is a combo deck that can gain big chunks of life with Memento, letting it "get there" with the time bought, where as Lantern games go long and the life gain will be more gradual and spread out, likely being too little to matter against creature heavy, aggressive decks. And against Burn it does pretty much nothing, which is more of a concern for Lantern than for Mill, seeing how Mill will just win before incidental Bolt-Snap-Bolt decks get it.
My first approach was more Jund-ish, with a lower curve, Bob and without Ancestral Vision.
But this take seems a lot smoother. The lifeloss from Bob hurts without 2x Finks or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in the main and I couldn't quite find space for the former and we'd need more removal spells to make the latter shine, I think.
And as a 4 drop he may just be "too little, too late" against aggro. Tasigur on turn 2/3 seems stronger to just block.
With Bob out and Jace and Tasigur in (as I didn't want to play roulette with delve guys and Bob before ^^) the long game is still strong and drawing 3 after trading 1 for 1 is as strong as it sounds.
Serum Visions are still in here, because they are great at smoothing out draws and filtering through things I don't need for things we do. It lets me keep more hands and t3 Snap - Visions isn't the worst you can do.
The mainboard removal may need one more option.
Snap helps out as well as sometimes Jace and of course Lili, but 2 maybe be too few still.
What surprised me is how nice Slaughter Pact with Snap feels and the Pact's convenience in general, as I can remove a threat, land a goyf and start swinging or blocking a turn earlier, paying for the Pact after the board has been (somewhat) stabilized.
Go for the Throat is my 2nd pick to have more than just Lili and Maelstrom Pulse hitting opposing Delve creatures or awkward things like Huntmaster of the Fells.
As my 3rd spot removal I'd probably pick Disfigure, but I'm not entirely sure /how/ much worse 2 "damage" (and -2 attack, which can have niche applications) is compared to Bolt. Dismember is another option, but the lifeloss is dangerous, especially when relying on flashing it back.
Potentially low removal count aside, another issue might be the graveyard reliance. A Rest in Peace shuts down Goyf, makes Tasigur very costly, turn Snappy into Ambush Viper and makes Jace questionable as well.
I think this is ok, because of how much value I can get out of the yard otherwise, ticking up Lili relentlessly towards the ult while ditching potentially useful stuff that can be re-bought with Flashback is really nice.
And one-sided or one-shot hate a la Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt hasn't been too much of an issue so far.
As expected it's really good at grinding out other Midrange and some control decks.
For now I've just given up on Tron completely, without access to Crumble to Dust, Stony Silence or recurringFulminator Mages. Nahiri decks can be tricky as well.
Sideboard thoughts I've had are:
- 2nd Flaying Tendrils in the side, but so far that, Damnation and EE do a fine job and are nicely varied. Still, more sweepers may be necessary against aggressive decks as well as some toolbox company lists
- Sadistic Sacrament used to be Countersquall, but between Jace, Lili and general tap-out playstyle, I don't think counters are necessary or do enough against combo. With 6x discard in the main and Lili as well as flashback for discard it's already quite nicely set up and being able to exile an Emrakul from Nahiri or e.g. both of Ad Nauseam's wincons made me pick it over Cranial Extraction and similar effects. Maybe should be 2 Duress or other Extraction effects, or something else for a different matchup entirely.
- 1x Unravel the Aether is for Wurmcoil and similar shenanigans, between sweepers and Creeping Corrosion I think Affinity should be ok, and against other things there are still Decay and Pulse. Maybe this should be something else as well though.
- Sower of Temptation is against other Midrange and Control decks, to give me a threat that's similarly awkward against Liliana as e.g. Huntmaster of the Fells or Lingering Souls are. It may be too squishy though and perhaps good ol' Thragtusk could be more reliable.
- 1x Finks is just as an additional annoying value creature against (non-path) decks and as a little extra against aggro, although 2x Feed the Clan /should/ be able to handle Burn quite well already.
- Night of Souls' Betrayal is just a bit of a pet card of mine and I like it against decks with Lingering Souls, many X/1s (Snap & Clique and similar) and of course Infect.
- Graffdiggers Cage is imo the best graveyard hate option after Scooze, which is awkward with Goyf at times. In addition is also hits Nahiri "combo" decks and CoCo/Chord decks.
The mana base is quite solid so far.
I like being able to fetch painlessly and against Blood Moon for 2 Swamps for Lili.
2 Forests and more green than needed in general are for Scooze, as it can be quite hungry and when I need it I want to be able to rely on it.
The Creeping Tarpits have been nice, I don't want to see them before turn 4 generally, between Discard, Vision(s), removal and threats I have enough I really want to play on curve, but as finishers they do a good job and earn again points in Goyf-stalled board matchups.
For anyone interested, here's a link to the mana cost vs mana source distribution.
So yeah, that's that.
It's just the second draft and needs a LOT more testing and tuning, obviously, but so far it's quite good at doing what it's supposed to do: Try to out-Jund Jund. :3
You can look in the opening post for thnkr's budget list, but Bridge can't really be replaced. The problem is, without a non-creature card to make all their creatures irrelevant, the opponent will have too many live draws to mill them all.
With bridge and no non-skite creatures we blanket their creature removal as well as their creatures, so nearly their whole deck will be dead draws.
You can play without Opals, but without Bridges would be very tough, even when looking at Silent Arbiter, Magus of the Moat, Ghostly Prison or similar effects.
Arbiter still seems the most solid of those options, though you will need to pay attention to your opponent's removal and burn spells.
Maybe add a couple Pyroclasm in the main, to have some earlier answer to aggro decks, before the Arbiter comes down.
e: Also, I just remembered that budget discussions aren't allowed here, so you'd have to ask in the Budget Modern subforum. ^^;
I´d like to share the list i have been testing lately, been inspiered by Jeff Hoogland's brew however i completly diasgree with his assessment of Ancestral Vision and Cryptic commands position in this deck and modern in general (he claims both are unplayable in modern period, from what i have tested so far both actually perform very well with the nahiri plan)
The manabase is experimental at best and also lacking Zen fetchies.
Overall the idea is to play a standard hard control game keeping the board clean and generating card quality with Nahiri untill you can either Ult her or land a Elspeth for the win.
I am also testing a similar idea with Resto + Wall of omens and a 1 of Kiki Jiki but so far this one feels better.
Anyone playing around with similar brews?
Any thoughts?
Paul Cheon has been streaming with a list also inspired by Hoogland's for the last 2 days or so. [Link to the last broadcast with it, if someone wants to see it in action]
It looks really sweet and so far he had good success with it in Modern Leagues, though admittedly Tron and Jund have been scarce so far. ^^
So far he only played with Serum Visions, no Ancestral Vision, for now.
Against the field it looks pretty nice though, having the Nahiri"combo" is very strong against e.g. Scapeshift and similarly problematic matchups, as being able to land it t4 and win t6, or just have that inevitability in general is obviously very good against a deck that just wants to draw cards until it can combo off while overloading your countermagic with theirs.
I don't have any playing experience with the deck personally (yet, as it /does/ look very sweet and I may just pick it up for the heck of it. ;D), so sorry that I can't write more in depth stuff on it, etc. ^^
If you want that effect, only go with Curse of Death's Hold if your deck dies to the effect as well. Or if you're in for cute jank and hate fun and combine it with Godhead of Awe in an Esper Control shell or so. ^^;
Else, slam Night of Souls' Betrayal.
1 mana less is a HUGE deal and makes it still quite good against Elves and Affinity, if combined with a board wipe and other removal.
Against Hatebears and Death and Taxes 5 mana can soon be 6 or 7 mana and -1/-1 shuts down so many of their pieces that getting it out earlier and reliably is quite important.
Even with Twin no longer being a thing, having the effect t4 not t5+ (5 mana is not just 1 mana more than 4, it can often be 1-3 mana more, which is a LOT) is a lot better.
If you have some Damnation in your list it becomes a lot better even, as you can drop it after one and more or less shut down Bogles.
Similarly, if you survive till turn 4 and play this against Infect, it's basically gg.
So, it does shut down, or at least severely impede a lot of decks actually:
Infect, Bogles (sometimes), Thopters, Abzan Company (can still Angel Feeder and Melira combo with a bit of setup), Hatebears, DnT, Affinity, and some random jank.
That being said, often you want a sweeper of sorts to come with it, as many of those decks can set up their board to play around the effect.
Once it's down it usually just locks them out though, so 1 or 2 in the sideboard can be quite nice.
It'll be a 0/0 Swamp with 4 +1/+1 counters making it a 4/4 Swamp.
Languish then gives everything -4/-4, making the Swamp a 0/0 Swamp creature and, as any creature with toughness 0, it goes to the 'yard.
Nothing survives with an "effective" toughness of 0, meaning after all calculations are done.
But just having 0 toughness as it's baseline and then some effect that raises it above it doesn't make it die, obviously. But it also doesn't mean it survives being at 0 toughness, e.g. if you were to remove the +1/+1 counters from it in some manner.
Isn't it funny that red gets better card filtering than blue does?
I wouldn't call it better, it really depends on the deck.
Red gets decent filtering, but only at the cost of discarding for the most part.
Additionally Red cantrips at best.
E.g. Faithless Looting digs you 2 cards deep, at the cost of 3 cards (the Looting and the 2 you discard).
In comparison, Sleight of Hand digs just as deep, but comes away with card parity as you replace it with another card.
(And yes, you can flash back Looting, but at that point you're looking at more than 1 mana invested and for 3 mana you can just play Counsel of the Soratami or so)
Now, as soon as you make use of the discarded cards in a way, Red cantrips and filtering become actually quite potent, but as with any card, that differs from deck to deck.
Considering it's black, chances are you know your opponent's hand from a t1 discard spell already, which would help of course.
But yeah, going for that in the dark is rather risky and you really gotta ask yourself "do I want to turn this card into a instant & sorcery only duress?", as it's not just "oh well, I wasted one mode of the spell", but it also costs you another card or at least this card. ^^
To be fair, if it hits it's an ok card (the drain mode is p bad in any case though) and again decks like Burn or Delver (Remand aside which is just.. rip) that boast shockable creatures and spells it's probably quite nice.
But as soon as you see Islands on the other side of the table... beware of using more than 1 mode, because counters just wreck this card.
They are because "cmc >4" and "non-creature" are broad enough to rarely whiff in Modern.
And even "non-creature" is often only played in the sideboard.
And while Grixis Delver may be able to reduce the card possible disadvantage or parity, for the moment it's still just that.
Even if it's not completely lost, you still /do/ lose resources. Yes you can snap back that bolt, but that still costs you have your bolt in that case and that is only if you actually want to / get to flash it back.
Yes, it has very broad applications, but all of those on their own are /very/ mediocre.
Vs control a 2 mana Duress just opens you up for Spell Snare that may be sitting in their hand later in the game, against aggro 2 mana Sorcery Disfigure is mediocre as well. If you pay 2 mana to kill a creature, you really want to kill any creature or at least most of them.
Pay 1 mana more and you can even give all of them -2/-2.
If you play Grixis, why run this over Terminate as your 2 mana removal?
Or over Kommand as a value card? What slot would this go in? (Honest question, I'm not up to date on Grixis Delver and similar variants.)
Sure it enables Kommand and Snappy value, but.... that usually happens in the games and the deck in general anyway.
E.g. Turning your bolt into a pseudo-Duress isn't that great, even if you "can just snap/jace, vp it back later". It's still resources spent and you don't generally get immediate value out of it.
It's very slow and not really grindy at that, but falls off quite harshly later on in the game.
Idk, for me this card is too broad and too mediocre in it's width at that. Flexibility is very nice, yes, but not if it ends up being flexible between underwhelming options at a very real cost.
If it was highly specialized against one sort of strategy I could see it as a nice sb option, but like this, where 1-2 modes are usually dead or at least very underwhelming... I'm really not convinced.
The thing is, a 3 mana instant Raven's Crime (which is a bunch better than a regular Raven's Crime [rebuying it aside]) with a shock is an easy 2-1.
And you can do fun shenanigans like kill their Goyf after they bolted yours while getting yours back, e.g.
Instant speed helps a lot.
The best Collective Brutality can be is a 1-1, 2-2, 3-3.
And at worst you 2-1 yourself, should the pseudo-Duress mode miss.
In a deck like Dredge or similar gy centric decks it might find a home, but as a generic removal / disruption spell... I'm not quite sold on it yet.
While you can cycle any Think Twice in the yard past the 1st one, Take Inventory becomes quite silly with it.
1 in the yard with HtS out lets you draw 4 cards for 2, 2 in the yard 6.
It's pretty insane, even if it is Sorcery speed and the 1st one is somewhat clunky.
Seems just SOOO much worse.
2 mana, a lot more narrow Duress seems not super hype either, but... ok I guess.
And draining 2 for a card or for 2 is just really bad and only useful in very niche cases. :/
I guess it becomes ok if you escalate it actually hit with the Duress mode, making it just a sorcery speed disfigure and narrower Duress.
But that still seems not overly amazing.
Perhaps the flexibility will make it worth it though.
I'm not sure if Fleshbag Marauder is really a card to consider.
If you want an edict effect there are better ones around and the 2nd mode isn't that amazing either.
New Lili is... nice, but I think her biggest problems are that she's Liliana, hence can't be out with old Lili at the same time, and finding spots for her.
If we could have both out at once... oh boy. Ruthlessly pitch to LotV, get back your stuff with LtLH... yummy.
But since we can, LotV just covers a lot more ground.
I'm playing more Midrange than Control in my BUG list, so no counters and such fluff that work poorly with LotV, but if you are heavy into counterspells and playing more reactively, I can see new Lili being a bit better, because you likely won't play LotV, or at least not 4 copies I imagine.
Then again, in that case Jace, Vryn's Prodigy might still be better, though he and LtLH can work together nicely.
LotV is WAY stronger.
New Lili's +1 is rather mediocre, though it can turn Disfigures into pseudo Lighting Bolts and be ok in some situations.
But her -2 doesn't really do a lot.
In BUG you don't need recursion as much, thanks to the tons of card draw you can run and how sticky your creatures are to begin with.
And on an empty board she doesn't do much either.
Sure, her ultimate wins the game quickly, but so does LotV's, but the sacrificing part can also just end the game for e.g. combo decks or big mana decks right then and there, and she gets it a turn sooner, while keeping opponents hellbent.
If you could have both out at once I'd try 1-2 in my BUG midrange deck,tbh, but if I have to choose between the two, LotV all the way.
So, Yes, new Lili is decent at grinding, but old Lili just does a lot more against a lot more achetypes (mainly Combo and Control, who have a much harder time sculpting their hand or gaining card advantage).
Revoker's ability to shut off mana abilities is hardly relevant here, without an Eggs deck being good.
And "Revoking the Bird" is not really a great play... :b
I'm assuming non-automated programs here, since on Modo that seems to make no sense indeed.
On Cockatrice however (mind you I have only played with friends so far, so I can only imagine) it sounds sensible.
Idk at what pace people play there, but if you wanna respond, but aren't immediately sure how or would just like a second to think it through again, then "Respond" or "responding" or so seems totally fine.
It just says "Wait a sec, I want to do something.", which seems a lot better than then being silent and 5-10 seconds later, when you're already in the next step or resolving the next spell, they wanna go back and do their thing.
Not everyone is an LSV or so. :b
I don't think Profane Memento works well in Lantern.
In Mill they can easily play something like UB: Mill 10, gain 6+ life.
Against creature heavy decks that can be all it needs to buy the extra turn or two to "burn" them out.
Lantern would have the lifegain a lot slower and once the Bridge is up, you probably want them to draw their creatures, so you can make doubly sure they don't draw burn or artifact removal instead.
Whereas without Bridge chances are you want to mill yourself towards the Bridge or similar things.
In short, Mill is a combo deck that can gain big chunks of life with Memento, letting it "get there" with the time bought, where as Lantern games go long and the life gain will be more gradual and spread out, likely being too little to matter against creature heavy, aggressive decks. And against Burn it does pretty much nothing, which is more of a concern for Lantern than for Mill, seeing how Mill will just win before incidental Bolt-Snap-Bolt decks get it.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
//Sorceries 15
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
//Instants 6
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Go for the Throat
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
//Lands 22
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Feed the Clan
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Unravel the Æther
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Sadistic Sacrament
My first approach was more Jund-ish, with a lower curve, Bob and without Ancestral Vision.
But this take seems a lot smoother. The lifeloss from Bob hurts without 2x Finks or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in the main and I couldn't quite find space for the former and we'd need more removal spells to make the latter shine, I think.
And as a 4 drop he may just be "too little, too late" against aggro. Tasigur on turn 2/3 seems stronger to just block.
With Bob out and Jace and Tasigur in (as I didn't want to play roulette with delve guys and Bob before ^^) the long game is still strong and drawing 3 after trading 1 for 1 is as strong as it sounds.
Serum Visions are still in here, because they are great at smoothing out draws and filtering through things I don't need for things we do. It lets me keep more hands and t3 Snap - Visions isn't the worst you can do.
The mainboard removal may need one more option.
Snap helps out as well as sometimes Jace and of course Lili, but 2 maybe be too few still.
What surprised me is how nice Slaughter Pact with Snap feels and the Pact's convenience in general, as I can remove a threat, land a goyf and start swinging or blocking a turn earlier, paying for the Pact after the board has been (somewhat) stabilized.
Go for the Throat is my 2nd pick to have more than just Lili and Maelstrom Pulse hitting opposing Delve creatures or awkward things like Huntmaster of the Fells.
As my 3rd spot removal I'd probably pick Disfigure, but I'm not entirely sure /how/ much worse 2 "damage" (and -2 attack, which can have niche applications) is compared to Bolt.
Dismember is another option, but the lifeloss is dangerous, especially when relying on flashing it back.
Potentially low removal count aside, another issue might be the graveyard reliance. A Rest in Peace shuts down Goyf, makes Tasigur very costly, turn Snappy into Ambush Viper and makes Jace questionable as well.
I think this is ok, because of how much value I can get out of the yard otherwise, ticking up Lili relentlessly towards the ult while ditching potentially useful stuff that can be re-bought with Flashback is really nice.
And one-sided or one-shot hate a la Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt hasn't been too much of an issue so far.
As expected it's really good at grinding out other Midrange and some control decks.
For now I've just given up on Tron completely, without access to Crumble to Dust, Stony Silence or recurring Fulminator Mages.
Nahiri decks can be tricky as well.
Sideboard thoughts I've had are:
- 2nd Flaying Tendrils in the side, but so far that, Damnation and EE do a fine job and are nicely varied. Still, more sweepers may be necessary against aggressive decks as well as some toolbox company lists
- Sadistic Sacrament used to be Countersquall, but between Jace, Lili and general tap-out playstyle, I don't think counters are necessary or do enough against combo. With 6x discard in the main and Lili as well as flashback for discard it's already quite nicely set up and being able to exile an Emrakul from Nahiri or e.g. both of Ad Nauseam's wincons made me pick it over Cranial Extraction and similar effects. Maybe should be 2 Duress or other Extraction effects, or something else for a different matchup entirely.
- 1x Unravel the Aether is for Wurmcoil and similar shenanigans, between sweepers and Creeping Corrosion I think Affinity should be ok, and against other things there are still Decay and Pulse. Maybe this should be something else as well though.
- Sower of Temptation is against other Midrange and Control decks, to give me a threat that's similarly awkward against Liliana as e.g. Huntmaster of the Fells or Lingering Souls are. It may be too squishy though and perhaps good ol' Thragtusk could be more reliable.
- 1x Finks is just as an additional annoying value creature against (non-path) decks and as a little extra against aggro, although 2x Feed the Clan /should/ be able to handle Burn quite well already.
- Night of Souls' Betrayal is just a bit of a pet card of mine and I like it against decks with Lingering Souls, many X/1s (Snap & Clique and similar) and of course Infect.
- Graffdiggers Cage is imo the best graveyard hate option after Scooze, which is awkward with Goyf at times. In addition is also hits Nahiri "combo" decks and CoCo/Chord decks.
The mana base is quite solid so far.
I like being able to fetch painlessly and against Blood Moon for 2 Swamps for Lili.
2 Forests and more green than needed in general are for Scooze, as it can be quite hungry and when I need it I want to be able to rely on it.
The Creeping Tarpits have been nice, I don't want to see them before turn 4 generally, between Discard, Vision(s), removal and threats I have enough I really want to play on curve, but as finishers they do a good job and earn again points in Goyf-stalled board matchups.
For anyone interested, here's a link to the mana cost vs mana source distribution.
So yeah, that's that.
It's just the second draft and needs a LOT more testing and tuning, obviously, but so far it's quite good at doing what it's supposed to do: Try to out-Jund Jund. :3
The problem is, without a non-creature card to make all their creatures irrelevant, the opponent will have too many live draws to mill them all.
With bridge and no non-skite creatures we blanket their creature removal as well as their creatures, so nearly their whole deck will be dead draws.
You can play without Opals, but without Bridges would be very tough, even when looking at Silent Arbiter, Magus of the Moat, Ghostly Prison or similar effects.
Arbiter still seems the most solid of those options, though you will need to pay attention to your opponent's removal and burn spells.
Maybe add a couple Pyroclasm in the main, to have some earlier answer to aggro decks, before the Arbiter comes down.
e: Also, I just remembered that budget discussions aren't allowed here, so you'd have to ask in the Budget Modern subforum. ^^;
Paul Cheon has been streaming with a list also inspired by Hoogland's for the last 2 days or so. [Link to the last broadcast with it, if someone wants to see it in action]
2 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Sulfur Falls
Instant
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
1 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
2 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalker
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
1 Lightning Helix
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
It looks really sweet and so far he had good success with it in Modern Leagues, though admittedly Tron and Jund have been scarce so far. ^^
So far he only played with Serum Visions, no Ancestral Vision, for now.
Against the field it looks pretty nice though, having the Nahiri "combo" is very strong against e.g. Scapeshift and similarly problematic matchups, as being able to land it t4 and win t6, or just have that inevitability in general is obviously very good against a deck that just wants to draw cards until it can combo off while overloading your countermagic with theirs.
I don't have any playing experience with the deck personally (yet, as it /does/ look very sweet and I may just pick it up for the heck of it. ;D), so sorry that I can't write more in depth stuff on it, etc. ^^
Else, slam Night of Souls' Betrayal.
1 mana less is a HUGE deal and makes it still quite good against Elves and Affinity, if combined with a board wipe and other removal.
Against Hatebears and Death and Taxes 5 mana can soon be 6 or 7 mana and -1/-1 shuts down so many of their pieces that getting it out earlier and reliably is quite important.
Even with Twin no longer being a thing, having the effect t4 not t5+ (5 mana is not just 1 mana more than 4, it can often be 1-3 mana more, which is a LOT) is a lot better.
If you have some Damnation in your list it becomes a lot better even, as you can drop it after one and more or less shut down Bogles.
Similarly, if you survive till turn 4 and play this against Infect, it's basically gg.
So, it does shut down, or at least severely impede a lot of decks actually:
Infect, Bogles (sometimes), Thopters, Abzan Company (can still Angel Feeder and Melira combo with a bit of setup), Hatebears, DnT, Affinity, and some random jank.
That being said, often you want a sweeper of sorts to come with it, as many of those decks can set up their board to play around the effect.
Once it's down it usually just locks them out though, so 1 or 2 in the sideboard can be quite nice.
Languish then gives everything -4/-4, making the Swamp a 0/0 Swamp creature and, as any creature with toughness 0, it goes to the 'yard.
Nothing survives with an "effective" toughness of 0, meaning after all calculations are done.
But just having 0 toughness as it's baseline and then some effect that raises it above it doesn't make it die, obviously. But it also doesn't mean it survives being at 0 toughness, e.g. if you were to remove the +1/+1 counters from it in some manner.
I wouldn't call it better, it really depends on the deck.
Red gets decent filtering, but only at the cost of discarding for the most part.
Additionally Red cantrips at best.
E.g. Faithless Looting digs you 2 cards deep, at the cost of 3 cards (the Looting and the 2 you discard).
In comparison, Sleight of Hand digs just as deep, but comes away with card parity as you replace it with another card.
(And yes, you can flash back Looting, but at that point you're looking at more than 1 mana invested and for 3 mana you can just play Counsel of the Soratami or so)
Now, as soon as you make use of the discarded cards in a way, Red cantrips and filtering become actually quite potent, but as with any card, that differs from deck to deck.