Wow thats actually pretty interesting, a sort of token shell, plenty of disruption, basically infinite voices. Is this just a thought experiment or have you had some time to test it. Ive been finding the same thing with leap, as a four of engine its a little slow. Decks either want to produce absurd amounts of mana or only play very cheap creatues. And i second they need some sort of ETB LTB effects, and voice does that.
I have long played bobs in this deck (started with 3 bob + 2 witness, now swapped). I think there is a room for a junk deck without company abusing evolutionary leap, featuring most likely no combo, more discard, more removal, lingering souls etc. All that is talk to another topic.
Im currently trying 9 non creature spells in the main deck, 4 coco, 2 chord, 2 path and 1 leap. Seems great, its another 'sac outlet' cant go infinite but it usually draws enough stuff to close the game regardless. Ive dropped out all creatures >3cmc so i still have 29 valid targets for CoCo main.
Leap is so most incredible thing since sliced bread in certain match-ups and a total dog in others. Ive played 2 modern events at the LGS with "podless" decks, an abzan (melira) and a naya (kiki) that used 4 leaps as the main engine in order to see if leap has any legs for the format. What better way to learn a card than jam the maximum number. These decks are decks for different threads but the jist of it is leap can be great in many matches. Taking what i felt with those decks back to the Coco decks id definitely play 1 leap, the value is to good, and i feel the deck could support 2. Leap is great against any sort of 1-1 removal decks, control deck, slow decks, wrath effects. Where if felt bad was linear agro decks, the zoos and the affinities but thats where Coco shines. I think the two really compliment each other but with Coco carrying most of the weight.
I forsee this deck following the great pods footsteps in being 100% combo focused upon inseption (as it is now) and progressivly transitioning into a very tight toolbox value deck with an opps you opened the door and i combo'd you for the win.
Theres some sweet interactions between leap and steal creatures effects. Ive been brewing some bant lists involving sower of tempations and vedalkin shackles to not only steal a creature but then remove it to steal another and draw cards. Whites in there for things like resto and flickerwisp to flicker a stolen creature or reactivate a sower.
The other shard that has steal crature ability is naya and also has access to the kiki-angel. I think its great to not only get value out of leap but to turn it into a removal spell, seems awesome.
Another card thats intersting for this stratagy and fits into bant and naya is yasova, but i think shes a little slow to be stealing, killing and casting new cretaures.
Hes also got a rise/fall, seems hes cut a terminate a cryptic and the electrolyze for a land, k command and rise/fall. I dont think the deck needs to go as deep down the rabbit hole as rise/fall but it is a fun card. If we are looking at other possible value grinders there is also soul manipulation to counter creature and return creature from grave. Same price as k command just only two mades instead of 4.
I'm just switching over to this deck, was playing grixis twin to so good success but found literally every game i was going to the control sideboard games 2 and 3 so figured why don't i just start game one that way and then not be a suboptimal control deck. took it out this teusday to modern night. its usually a big crowd, 60+ people and ended 3-1. Beat affinity, storm and jund, lost to goblins (thats going to be a tricky match once they get piledriver)
made some small adjustments to the coppenhagen list, -1 shadow of doubt, -1 cryptic, +1 land, +1 koleghans command. Loved the deck, played much better against hate than twin but i found the mana to be really hard, i neved felt like i was getting enough with all the plays i had available. games always ended with me having a full grip of cards only because i couldn't play them fast enough. I think the deck needs a 23rd land. i like the list above the LSV ran (except for the side board stuff) i feel the 3rd K command is a great decision as it provides so much grind but the deck needs to be able to turn around and cast things quiker. I felt the weakest card was electrolyze. it usually ended up just doing 2 to the face so i could cycle it in hopes of finding a 4th or 5th land. thats what I'm going to be cutting first i think.
i know the list started with 21 lands and now its up to 22 in a lot of peoples, but i think we need 1 more. anyone else had issues with the land density? what have you cut to make room for the extra lands?
I love watching spoilers roll out and seeing what has even the remotest and most fringe possibilities of being in the deck and i think the new disciple of the ring looks absolutly incredible from a card design perspective. Almost like a planswalker that has instant speed abilities. anything that is multi modal is very strong and seriously worth looking into. With enough resources she can litteraly control everything. First ability is basically a better mana leak (which can be over paid to increase its effect) then she can tap down blockers, untap defenders providing total field control. Lastly she can pump heself to an enormous size (basicaly dagonbreath on a blue card) all while passing the bolt test.
Shes judge, jury and executioner all in one and i think the versatility as a controller and finisher is VERY exciting. She does have some hefty restrictions though, delving an instant or sorcery each time but thats somthing ths deck does do very well, and having to pay a mana and being 5cmc in a 21-22 land deck hurts but at least the mana is colourless.
Ill try her out in the SB in the extra haymaker spot. All in all even if she doesnt pan out i think the card is brilliant on purly the design level and am glad to see wizards producing cards like this.
I wonder if something like monastery siege could help super grindy matches. Feuls delve consistantly as well as digs deep to get higher quality cards than the opponent. Bitterblossom is a card i played 2 of in the SB of grixis twin and loved it, but i dont like it as much in here. Withought the autowin of twin i think the bitterblossom damage is to much to quick
Yup so im on board with avoiding the tombstalker, got in a bunch of games and never felt like i could profitably cast it. The deck runs too hungry on resources (lands and GY) to make it work
What's people's opinions on tombstalker. I get it's BB and one more to delve, so it's slightly more taxing on the mana but I don't feel this deck needs to be getting it's threat down on turn 2. Even now it requires 2 fetches and a scour to get angler in play T2 so I don't like counting on 4 of the first 8 cards lining up. I'd think 2 tas/ 2 anglers/ 1 tombstalker could be a nice division, diversify the threats and speed up the kill clock as tombstalker flys over most chump blockers. (If your willing and can make the extra black and extra delve work he's strictly better than angler. Now it's just Is that extra little cost worth it for a 1-of?
Spoiler season is upon us. The new black damnation (languish) looks interesting, first card so far that I've seen that has any potential relavence for the deck as a SB sweeper. But even so I think anger of the gods is better. Can't think of any creatures we'd like to wipe that anger doesn't kill, and if we were looking for bigger sweepers then straight damnation is the right call. Languish will probably find a home in Grixis control where they can wipe without killing their tasigur and anglers. Anyone see any use of this card for us?
Thats how i feel! Lots of good stuff to bring in, not much to take out. I guess remand is the weakest here, their threats are cheap and come in off vials. So -4 remand -1 cryptic and i guess -1 Twin for +2 anger +2 olivia +1 Cut and +1 EE. Combo is still there, but much more control oriented.
Spell snare is proably still great against the fish. I dont run vandalblast but i think its too narrow here anyways. Bringing it in for just the 4 vials seems bad if it rots in hand, and if the vial is destroyed they just hard cast anyways. Id rather kill the threat and not the enabler against them.
@sentimental ha! Love it! Its good to hear everytime another style esper list puts up results. Did you feel that the deck was able to close out games before bitterblossom put you to low?
I havnt run into any merfolk personally but i know 2-3 guys run it at the LGS and after it doing so well this weekend i expect to see it a bit more. Whats your guys plans for it? Im personally thinking about bringing in a Cut, EE, 2 Angers and 2 Olivias.
Would you guys stay on the combo plan? Or switch into control?
just wanted to give a +1 thumbs up on this list
Leap is so most incredible thing since sliced bread in certain match-ups and a total dog in others. Ive played 2 modern events at the LGS with "podless" decks, an abzan (melira) and a naya (kiki) that used 4 leaps as the main engine in order to see if leap has any legs for the format. What better way to learn a card than jam the maximum number. These decks are decks for different threads but the jist of it is leap can be great in many matches. Taking what i felt with those decks back to the Coco decks id definitely play 1 leap, the value is to good, and i feel the deck could support 2. Leap is great against any sort of 1-1 removal decks, control deck, slow decks, wrath effects. Where if felt bad was linear agro decks, the zoos and the affinities but thats where Coco shines. I think the two really compliment each other but with Coco carrying most of the weight.
I forsee this deck following the great pods footsteps in being 100% combo focused upon inseption (as it is now) and progressivly transitioning into a very tight toolbox value deck with an opps you opened the door and i combo'd you for the win.
The other shard that has steal crature ability is naya and also has access to the kiki-angel. I think its great to not only get value out of leap but to turn it into a removal spell, seems awesome.
Another card thats intersting for this stratagy and fits into bant and naya is yasova, but i think shes a little slow to be stealing, killing and casting new cretaures.
made some small adjustments to the coppenhagen list, -1 shadow of doubt, -1 cryptic, +1 land, +1 koleghans command. Loved the deck, played much better against hate than twin but i found the mana to be really hard, i neved felt like i was getting enough with all the plays i had available. games always ended with me having a full grip of cards only because i couldn't play them fast enough. I think the deck needs a 23rd land. i like the list above the LSV ran (except for the side board stuff) i feel the 3rd K command is a great decision as it provides so much grind but the deck needs to be able to turn around and cast things quiker. I felt the weakest card was electrolyze. it usually ended up just doing 2 to the face so i could cycle it in hopes of finding a 4th or 5th land. thats what I'm going to be cutting first i think.
i know the list started with 21 lands and now its up to 22 in a lot of peoples, but i think we need 1 more. anyone else had issues with the land density? what have you cut to make room for the extra lands?
Well that's no fun is it? I say spec right away
Shes judge, jury and executioner all in one and i think the versatility as a controller and finisher is VERY exciting. She does have some hefty restrictions though, delving an instant or sorcery each time but thats somthing ths deck does do very well, and having to pay a mana and being 5cmc in a 21-22 land deck hurts but at least the mana is colourless.
Ill try her out in the SB in the extra haymaker spot. All in all even if she doesnt pan out i think the card is brilliant on purly the design level and am glad to see wizards producing cards like this.
What everyone elses take on her?
Spell snare is proably still great against the fish. I dont run vandalblast but i think its too narrow here anyways. Bringing it in for just the 4 vials seems bad if it rots in hand, and if the vial is destroyed they just hard cast anyways. Id rather kill the threat and not the enabler against them.
Would you guys stay on the combo plan? Or switch into control?