I know nobody wants to hear this, but I've had great success with those 3 flex slots (1 snare and 2 shadow of doubt) turning into 3 lingering souls, with a 4th in the board. When they're good they're REALLY good, and when they're bad they're still ok. Gives us some game against inkmoth nexus, makes it extremely difficult to lose to a resolved liliana. 3 souls and 4 think twice and 2 snapcaster makes hand disruption bad against us, which is typically a weakness of control. we don't immediately die to inkmoth, we have game against all sorts of stuff we would be cold to otherwise. You could also play curse of deaths hold here, but Souls are cheaper and provide card advantage. Getting a lingering souls countered feels like the best day of your life.
I know it's been discussed here in THEORY before but it didn't seem like too many people wanted to try it. Sure it break our "instant speed rule" , but so does verdict and I don't think anyone here wants to argue against playing sweepers. We shouldn't over do it with sorcery stuff, however souls, like wraths, are just too good not to play. Have any of you ever resolved a souls against affinity or delver? Sweet jesus. Also, as opposed to curse of deaths hold, souls can just kill an opponent who accidentally fell behind or got mana screwed, without souls, we can't capitalize on these "free wins" that we should be getting sometimes due to greedy opponents.
@sentimental I've been working on lists incorporating souls for a bit, I'm glad you see them as such a great card, i agree! souls can be a totally viable win condition in this deck. I know I'm a little left field of what most people are playing but i wanted to share results from last nights modern event, i had some decent results and went 4-1. I beat Scred Red, URW control, Naya Zoo and Esper Control. Only one I lost was too infect. Heres the list i played:
Skred red was pretty easy - they're not that fast and they let you control the plays. Half their cards feel like they're dead against you. just don't let the blood moons resolve before you've found basics. went 2-0
Next was infect - I got him game one after he probed me and saw removal so he slow played instead of rushing me not wanting to get blown out but lingering souls clogged up the board until i buried him in card advantage. Game 2 he rushed me, i just about stabilized, only have path, inquisition and lands in hand versus his ink moth on turn 4. inquisition him to see nothing but pump spells, take one. his turn he activates ink moth and pumps for lethal, i path, and he had top decked a dispel. Game 3 kept a risky hand of one land, path, doom blade, spell snare, engineered explosives, wrath, mana leak. and just didn't get there in time. should have mulliganed but i like to gamble sometimes. 1-2
UWR control - until about turn 5-6 i thought he was twin, he didn't show his white mana so i played the draw go control. when he finally dropped a colonnade and i realized he was control i flooded the field with walkers and he couldn't come back from narset drawing me extra cards almost every turn. highlight was rebounding esper charm to strip 4 cards from his hand. although i was in the drivers seat the entire game it took forever to finally grind him down. won game 1 and we went to time in the middle of game two so i won the match 1-0
Naya zoo - a tricky match if they get in underneath you early, but easy if you have a quick wrath. game one removed his early creatures and let lili sit on the field to kill whatever he dropped leaving him stranded with a couple pump spells in hand. game two lingering souls chumped and gideon deflected and delayed long enough for me to find a wrath and batter skull closed the game out. gideon was an all star this match, where was he for infect 2-0
Esper control - very similar to the UWR match. control matches just can't keep up to the card advantages and main deck inquisitions help clear the way for the walkers 2-0
Some notes of interest. the infect player said he was surprised to beat me. the unconditional removal was a big pain for him compared to red removal where he can just pump out of reach. they were definitely close games and they really could have gone either way. it was my first time actually running into infect and i think i sideboard poorly, oh well, learning. i also had two other players say to me "i literally have no side board against you" and "i have no idea how to side board again you" that felt pretty good. the deck attacks from a different control angle and unlike in standard planes walkers are extremely hard to answer in modern.
moving forward I don't know if elspeth had the impact i wanted her to, she was okay but i only ever used the put a soldier into play ability and if I'm using that she might as well be a sorin for the flying lifelink vampire. and lili felt meh, she was great against zoo after a wrath, but against control she was stripping my hand too so i don't know about her, she's still being tested.
that deck seems to have a lot of good stuff in it, but doesn't it have a really hard time with the mana? how often do your games just fold to not getting your proper lands or taking too much damage off of them?
@Rumtitan i think my last post covered most of the grievances you highlighted there i still think Esper charm is valuable, especially in the walker builds you and me are trying to build. I think esper charm with narset is too good to pass on (you're also able to change its modes between initial casting and rebound which makes it even sicker to both discard and draw) the more i actually think about it the less necessary serum visions seems. after doing some testing with a buddy last night they've gone out on my list (even though they're nice to set narrates) and I've put in 3 inquisitions.
Has anyone here actually tested a plainswalker control deck since Narset came out? I see a TON of theory crafting and defence of existing archetypes but nobody is saying much in the way of tournament reports.
@rumtitan i like the start. but I'm going to be a voice her to for Esper charm as well, it totally is the biggest reason to be black here. its one of the few cards thats as good on turn 3 as it is on turn 20 and every mode is relevant (and one of narsets strongest targets for rebound), so id find a home for some. let us know how that deck plays out! other than Esper charm, my other thought was why 2/2 split with timely reinforcements and souls especially since it makes a great target for lili.
as another note, not a 4-0 but this deck did get 3-1 in a MODO daily and i think is a great direction for esper, i hope we see more out of this. piloted by TheSauceBoss
cheap
pre-emptive threat elimination
choice of what to take
knowledge of players hand (most valuable i think)
cons:
bad top decks late game
doesn't effect the board
*haven't stopped a card that the other player has paid for (biggest drawback i think)*
if you're not following disruption with pressure they'll find that piece again
its not hard to see hand disruption is really strong certain matches (control/combo) and terrible others (redundant agro decks). I think the deck could benefit from an effect like monastery siege. the looting every turn would allow us to pitch the late game mana leaks and hand disruption. I think the problem is that the deck is already maxed on its ability to stabilize the early game and playing a 3cmc enchantment isn't going to help that. so not saying thats an answer but the deck could greatly benefit from a tool like that. are there any viable cards to do that in esper? i think monetary siege is the closest and its just not quite there.
I'm back and forth with discard like inquisition and thoughtseize in the deck, currently I'm playing without them in favour of full serum visions and some targeted kill spells. lili is also a test and this list is very fluid as i try different things out. this is just todays list
other cards I'm considering testing out somewhere are:
Good news! As i know this card well trying to make it work in pod i can answer those questions
1. No devotion needed. It is a creature everywhere except the actual battlefeild where it needs devotion. Hand, library, GY... Its all creature so it works with CC
2. Since its your card you stack the abilities ( persist and athreos occur at the same time) so if you want finks to persist put athreos ability down first, and then stack finks persist ontop, finks will persist, and your opponent choosing will fizzle since finks is no longer in the GY (you can do it the other way as well if there is a scenario where that seems more advantagous) i dont know when that would be but the options there.
I havnt tested it out tons but here's something i havnt heard anyone else talk about and maybe its good maybe it isnt. Has anyone looked at playing with athreos at all?
My background was pod, and the reason athreos never took off there (he was greatly talked about in those threads) was that he broke the pod chain and it was better to just keep poding for combos. But here you dont have that issue, he can be snagged with CC and either turns your dead creatures to bolts or keeps your hand stocked and the throttle to the floor. Just wondering if anyone else has tried this? I like the limited testing ive done with it so far!
I dont think youre wrong, amalek, but i think you need to build around her a bit more. Shes not ever going to win a game on her own, its what she helps the rest of the deck do that will.
First on the odds of bricking on narset: i dont think its as bad as you think. Currently I'm trying her in a list of 33 spells, 2 creatures and 25 lands. Taking into account the critical mass of targets, fetches thinning by the time narset hits (marginal i know but its something) and the serum visions, i find she hits more than 50/50, id say around 2/3 of the time.
Regarding jace: the only deck hes really stopping that its safe to tap out for with him on turn 4 is twin. His +1 is nice and it does buy you time to find a verdict or something against other decks, but if your using him to fact or fiction you might as well play a 4 mana draw spell like concentrate, cause then you get to keep everything.
Maybe its a loose analogy but i see narset as a sphinxs revelation. Dropping her on turn 4 and then plussing her till turn 8 lets say nets you 2-3 cards plus any life if they redirected attacks or bolts towards her. A sphinx on turn 8 is probably getting you somthing similar, 2-4 cards and 2-4 life. (For right or wrong thats what im doing is playing her over sphinx)
Moreover though, a tap out style goes much farthur than just narset, theres discard to look at, ive been playing around with lili, (who has been promising)especially when you have those dead cards in hand, wherther its lands or inquisitions or mana leaks and best case lingering souls.
RumTitan I completely agree with you, I've been testing out an esper control list involving narset and I deffinitly see potential somewhere there. Your post in fact is the reason I decided to join the conversation instead of just spectating, which I've been doing for quite some time. There definitely are people here entrenched in the draw go style of esper and it looks like a great list but I think if anything is going to push a tap out style of control it's going to involve narset and she seems to have the best options doing that in esper colours. I'm writing this on my phone but later on ill post the 75 I've been playing.
I'm very glad you brought up this version of esper, when I read your previous post it was almost verbatim to the things I had been thinking. Hopefully with at least the 2 of us we can find an esper narset list that works!
@sentimental I've been working on lists incorporating souls for a bit, I'm glad you see them as such a great card, i agree! souls can be a totally viable win condition in this deck. I know I'm a little left field of what most people are playing but i wanted to share results from last nights modern event, i had some decent results and went 4-1. I beat Scred Red, URW control, Naya Zoo and Esper Control. Only one I lost was too infect. Heres the list i played:
4 path to exile
1 smother
1 doom blade
control
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 spell snare
3 mana leak
2 logic knot
2 cryptic command
wraths
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
3 lingering souls
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 gideon jura
1 batterskull
card advantage
4 esper charm
2 narset transcendent
1 liliana of the veil
1 jace, architect of thought
lands
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 watery grave
2 hallowed fountain
1 godless shrine
1 glacial fortress
1 drowned catacomb
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
3 celestial colonnade
1 creeping tar pit
Skred red was pretty easy - they're not that fast and they let you control the plays. Half their cards feel like they're dead against you. just don't let the blood moons resolve before you've found basics. went 2-0
Next was infect - I got him game one after he probed me and saw removal so he slow played instead of rushing me not wanting to get blown out but lingering souls clogged up the board until i buried him in card advantage. Game 2 he rushed me, i just about stabilized, only have path, inquisition and lands in hand versus his ink moth on turn 4. inquisition him to see nothing but pump spells, take one. his turn he activates ink moth and pumps for lethal, i path, and he had top decked a dispel. Game 3 kept a risky hand of one land, path, doom blade, spell snare, engineered explosives, wrath, mana leak. and just didn't get there in time. should have mulliganed but i like to gamble sometimes. 1-2
UWR control - until about turn 5-6 i thought he was twin, he didn't show his white mana so i played the draw go control. when he finally dropped a colonnade and i realized he was control i flooded the field with walkers and he couldn't come back from narset drawing me extra cards almost every turn. highlight was rebounding esper charm to strip 4 cards from his hand. although i was in the drivers seat the entire game it took forever to finally grind him down. won game 1 and we went to time in the middle of game two so i won the match 1-0
Naya zoo - a tricky match if they get in underneath you early, but easy if you have a quick wrath. game one removed his early creatures and let lili sit on the field to kill whatever he dropped leaving him stranded with a couple pump spells in hand. game two lingering souls chumped and gideon deflected and delayed long enough for me to find a wrath and batter skull closed the game out. gideon was an all star this match, where was he for infect
Esper control - very similar to the UWR match. control matches just can't keep up to the card advantages and main deck inquisitions help clear the way for the walkers 2-0
Some notes of interest. the infect player said he was surprised to beat me. the unconditional removal was a big pain for him compared to red removal where he can just pump out of reach. they were definitely close games and they really could have gone either way. it was my first time actually running into infect and i think i sideboard poorly, oh well, learning. i also had two other players say to me "i literally have no side board against you" and "i have no idea how to side board again you" that felt pretty good. the deck attacks from a different control angle and unlike in standard planes walkers are extremely hard to answer in modern.
moving forward I don't know if elspeth had the impact i wanted her to, she was okay but i only ever used the put a soldier into play ability and if I'm using that she might as well be a sorin for the flying lifelink vampire. and lili felt meh, she was great against zoo after a wrath, but against control she was stripping my hand too so i don't know about her, she's still being tested.
looks like at least one other person is as well
as another note, not a 4-0 but this deck did get 3-1 in a MODO daily and i think is a great direction for esper, i hope we see more out of this. piloted by TheSauceBoss
4 path to exile
2 spell snare
2 thoughtseize
4 mana leak
4 esper charm
3 lingering souls
1 sphinx's revelation
3 cryptic command
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 jace, architect of thought
2 narset transcendent
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
2 gideon jura
cheap
pre-emptive threat elimination
choice of what to take
knowledge of players hand (most valuable i think)
cons:
bad top decks late game
doesn't effect the board
*haven't stopped a card that the other player has paid for (biggest drawback i think)*
if you're not following disruption with pressure they'll find that piece again
its not hard to see hand disruption is really strong certain matches (control/combo) and terrible others (redundant agro decks). I think the deck could benefit from an effect like monastery siege. the looting every turn would allow us to pitch the late game mana leaks and hand disruption. I think the problem is that the deck is already maxed on its ability to stabilize the early game and playing a 3cmc enchantment isn't going to help that. so not saying thats an answer but the deck could greatly benefit from a tool like that. are there any viable cards to do that in esper? i think monetary siege is the closest and its just not quite there.
4 path to exile
4 serum visions
1 spell snare
3 mana leak
2 logic knot
1 doom blade
1 smother
1 liliana of the veil
4 esper charm
3 lingering souls
2 narset transcendent
1 wrath of god
2 supreme verdict
2 cryptic command
1 gideon jura
1 batterskull
I'm back and forth with discard like inquisition and thoughtseize in the deck, currently I'm playing without them in favour of full serum visions and some targeted kill spells. lili is also a test and this list is very fluid as i try different things out. this is just todays list
other cards I'm considering testing out somewhere are:
1. No devotion needed. It is a creature everywhere except the actual battlefeild where it needs devotion. Hand, library, GY... Its all creature so it works with CC
2. Since its your card you stack the abilities ( persist and athreos occur at the same time) so if you want finks to persist put athreos ability down first, and then stack finks persist ontop, finks will persist, and your opponent choosing will fizzle since finks is no longer in the GY (you can do it the other way as well if there is a scenario where that seems more advantagous) i dont know when that would be but the options there.
My background was pod, and the reason athreos never took off there (he was greatly talked about in those threads) was that he broke the pod chain and it was better to just keep poding for combos. But here you dont have that issue, he can be snagged with CC and either turns your dead creatures to bolts or keeps your hand stocked and the throttle to the floor. Just wondering if anyone else has tried this? I like the limited testing ive done with it so far!
First on the odds of bricking on narset: i dont think its as bad as you think. Currently I'm trying her in a list of 33 spells, 2 creatures and 25 lands. Taking into account the critical mass of targets, fetches thinning by the time narset hits (marginal i know but its something) and the serum visions, i find she hits more than 50/50, id say around 2/3 of the time.
Regarding jace: the only deck hes really stopping that its safe to tap out for with him on turn 4 is twin. His +1 is nice and it does buy you time to find a verdict or something against other decks, but if your using him to fact or fiction you might as well play a 4 mana draw spell like concentrate, cause then you get to keep everything.
Maybe its a loose analogy but i see narset as a sphinxs revelation. Dropping her on turn 4 and then plussing her till turn 8 lets say nets you 2-3 cards plus any life if they redirected attacks or bolts towards her. A sphinx on turn 8 is probably getting you somthing similar, 2-4 cards and 2-4 life. (For right or wrong thats what im doing is playing her over sphinx)
Moreover though, a tap out style goes much farthur than just narset, theres discard to look at, ive been playing around with lili, (who has been promising)especially when you have those dead cards in hand, wherther its lands or inquisitions or mana leaks and best case lingering souls.
Hope you see all of this as constructive debate
I'm very glad you brought up this version of esper, when I read your previous post it was almost verbatim to the things I had been thinking. Hopefully with at least the 2 of us we can find an esper narset list that works!