im not saying that relic isn't a great card against us. any graveyard card is. but Knight of the Reliquary can pseudo play around it in a game of chicken. Instead of putting all your lands in only put in enough to make Knight like an 8/8 (or anything to put them on a 2-3 turn clock) than they have to decide, do they take the 8 or clear the graveyard. and if you've done it properly, if they pop the relic and clear the yard you can fill it up some more with the KotR. and still hit for enough damage to 2 turn them.
also Pridemage (yes a very good card) doesn't really do much to relic, relics done its damage as soon as its hit the field. if you pridemage a relic you've payed 3 mana, lost a card and they've gotten to clear your graveyard and draw for 1 mana. I get that sometimes its a necessity to unlock the GY again but pridemaging a relic is a very poor play.
Well said Isei, i don't feel Knightfall is very close to twin. there are some similarities, but Knightfall is trying to be much more aggressive and taps out basically all the time, whereas twin only reacts. Knightfall maybe feels closer in line with the grixis and Tarmo variants just having a more aggressive approach, but this deck's definitely taken that a step further
So over the next little bit I should get to do some pretty decent testing. I've got a bunch of friends with different decks that ill be able to get together with periodically through the week so i should get some slow controlled testing with the ability grind game ones and post board games and switch maybe-board cards in on the fly.
The decks we should have access to in the gauntlet are GR Tron, U Tron, Affinity, Jund, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, all 3 Twin variants, UW control, Naya Chord, boggles and merfolk. These arnt going to be in all one night, so ill try to write mini reports on the match-ups as we get through them, so it could take a week or so (or longer haha) but hopefully it ends up being helpful.
Although that could be said about any deck, and this one has has seriously cut down on its durdly hands since the 4 wall of roots, 4 wall of omen days. Super fun deck, one of the most enjoyable ones i found since Pod was banned and i felt like i tried everything under the sun.
Goyf will always be okay, even here, with what the other person does even if he's small will usually be a 3/4 or 4/5 for 2 mana, that's playable. There's no doubt he's better in a jund build but he's fine here. I think voice is much more impressive though. There's also nothing to say he needs to be a 4-of either. Why not have 2? Goyf actually is a respectable late draw as a threat and is cheap enough that you can still hold mana up or play other things, maybe it's an inexpensive threat you do want to see latter rather than in your opening hand in this deck
Potential blue cards for CoCo: Kira, Great Glass-Spinner - Don't think UU is an issue since we are not running GG (except Ewit?) or WW. Good for protection, a bit of a nonbo with Coralhelm but still ok with fetchlands.
Vendilion Clique - Great disruption, evasion. Clear information before proceeding with combo. Nice to have a flash play so CoCo isn't AS telegraphed.
Thassa, God of the Sea - Gives Geists evasion. Scry for combo. Bad because it does nothing and will almost never meet devotion (unless you run the above 2 as well).
Kiora, Master of the Depths - Alternative Win-Con and helps look for Knight and synergises with dorks/knight in play.
Other sideboard cards to consider: Meddling Mage - Two drop replacement for Voice in matchups where voices don't shine.
Unified Will - With 6-8 dorks, may be worth looking at. Brian Kibler used it in his Bant Company list in June IIRC.
Unified will is definitly something to try, I'll be running it over the negates in the SB the next event I go to, can't think of many match ups we'd bring negates in for that we also wouldn't be able to beat in the creature count. I'd be worried about Kira, we can't flash it in like merfolk and it kills retreat interaction. And I'm currently testing clique as well as a 1-of main. It's seemed good
Hey All - thanks for all the reply's. I'll continue to test straight bant (no goyfs). Not wanting to buy goyf's aside - I'm drawn to the smoother mana base and definitely understand the upsides of Voice/Qasali (as a predominantly blue player so far). My next question - I'm not really a big fan of Collected Company - i'd rather not leave my 'fate' up to 'pure luck' (argue with me of you like) and additionally have the associated deck building constraints. However, CoCo for sure helps you rebuild after a board wipe and the value can be devastating to many opponents. What is the consensus (if there is one) on CoCo?
Again theres mixed feelings, it seems like its maybe a 70-30 split? Between CoCo and non-CoCo lists. I have the same sentiments in that i dislike playing CoCo and not knowing what im going to get or if im even going to get anything other than a bird. I played it a bunch with the Abzan lists when they came out and got burned by that card a bunch. but more than that i dislike the deck building restictions.
Personally i prefer being able to include more interactive cards, and in order to fight the board wipes or grind with value like you say ive been using kitchen finks and restoration angels. And at this point have had much better feelings with the deck than CoCo.
Maybe im missreading it but i dont think Pokken was shutting anyone down, only saying that Goyf wasnt the be all end all and explaining to IslandAreBroken that just cause Goyf are out of the picture doesnt mean that deck cant be built and do well
MY MAIN CONCERN is that the Zoo version with Goyf's is the best version of this deck and anything else is just a worse version thereof. Is this the consensus amongst those that have been testing since the spoiling of Coralhelm? (I refuse to buy goyfs and likely will abandon this deck if it in all honesty needs them).
There are some great looking Zoo lists, and not all run Goyf as stated by Pokken and Mantis. Others run goyf and they look good too. I mean, Goyf is Goyf, it can be a great card but its not a 4-of corner piece here like it is in Jund. I think its very replaceable but also nothing wrong with running it. I play a strictly non-Zoo Bant midrange build. I haven't done enough testing to know if its better or worse than the zoo decks, definitely less popular though. Ive only managed to take it to one FMN as my shop runs modern on mondays and this week was canadian thanksgiving. But in the one week i did run it i went 4-0 so it at least isn't terrible.
To simplify your last question, the ONLY reason people have red and the zoo version is because bolt is a great magic card and Wild Nacatyl is aggressive. And then the jury is still out on kessig and stronghold but they're there too. So why straight Bant? slightly easier mana base, and access to a little more of what blue has to offer, re: counterspells, and also these zoo lists seem to also all be CoCo lists. some people don't believe in/like its consistency and deck building restrictions so Bant offers a bit more flexibility there with anything from Ojutai to resto to hangarback.
Hope that helps! so at this point Zoo and Goyf are not known to be better than Bant, but its still very early to be saying for sure either way.
How often are you facing aggro and/or red decks? (For the purposes of this discussion, Jund, Grixis, Twin, and UWR count as red decks, but RG Tron doesn't because its only burn is Ugin.) I'm not 100% sure you can combo off from 0 to 20 against stuff like Burn/Affinity on Turns 3-4 and stay above 3 life at all times. Being unable to do that consistently with Wolf Run is why I switched to Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion in all of my more dedicated combo builds.
(As I heavily suspect that Pokken is a significantly grindier player, this is more aimed at Maty78.)
My meta is pretty evenly distributed with all the tier 1 and 2 decks with a slightly higher population of Tron (both U and GR) on any given night you can be pretty much guaranteed that there is a twin player and at least 2-3 zoo players though. If i understand the question right, its pretty much how often does comboing turn 3 put me into Bolt range?
Simply very rarely if ever. But thats more because you don't pick that line against agro/red reach decks. and heres why you don't need to.
If they're aggressive: zoo and any 3 colour deck (URW, URB, GBR, WBG) they are also aggressive with their life totals so you don't need to fill the GY with all your lands. so you can either make the knight around a 14/14 and get there not finding and cracking fetches, in which case comboing cost you minimal-to-no life. or you can even just settle for making knight a 8/8 and get there over 2 turns. I see the combo as more of a way to handle the uninteractive decks. elves, tron, infect, affinity and the like. Its so rare to have to kill somebody from 20 life. Being a creature deck theres lots of other dudes to help along the way.
And on a final note I'm actually more of a grinder as well when it comes to this deck. Ill mirror what Pokken just said in that for me, between 3 finks, 3 restos, 2 dromokas command and E witness to rebuy things, the deck gains a ton of life that if you need to switch gears, play the long game, and protect the life total it does great. I feel the deck should be favoured against any dedicated burn especially if your more not the midrange list like mine or Pokkens
Are you able to swing for 20+ on turn 3 with 24 lands and no Kessig?
yeah totally, i play 23 lands (3 non-forest/plains) and on turn three (having gone nobel -> knight -> retreat (obviously as its the only way to T3) ) you can have 20 lands in the GY + KotR being a 2/2 + exalted so turn 3 swing for 23. If you're going for absolute max (at least with my set up) you can also float mana and Gavony for another +1 and also ghost quarter your own land adds to the count. so absolute max is 2/2 + 22 lands in GY + exalted + Gavony = 26 damage turn 3
i agree that kessig isn't needed, id rather use gavony as my mana sink as it plays betting incremental advantage. you don't have to tap out on the attack step to then get your threat removed. instead you sit defence, hold mana up for counters, restos, CoCo's or whatever and if they don't do anything everything gets a +1. eventually everything you have will be too large to deal with
personally i would say i win with the combo between 30-40% of the time, its definitely most of the time winning through beat down, but it still is a good portion of games.
also Pridemage (yes a very good card) doesn't really do much to relic, relics done its damage as soon as its hit the field. if you pridemage a relic you've payed 3 mana, lost a card and they've gotten to clear your graveyard and draw for 1 mana. I get that sometimes its a necessity to unlock the GY again but pridemaging a relic is a very poor play.
The decks we should have access to in the gauntlet are GR Tron, U Tron, Affinity, Jund, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, all 3 Twin variants, UW control, Naya Chord, boggles and merfolk. These arnt going to be in all one night, so ill try to write mini reports on the match-ups as we get through them, so it could take a week or so (or longer haha) but hopefully it ends up being helpful.
@Spountercell i am also on 2 goyfs and am happy with that number for now.
Unified will is definitly something to try, I'll be running it over the negates in the SB the next event I go to, can't think of many match ups we'd bring negates in for that we also wouldn't be able to beat in the creature count. I'd be worried about Kira, we can't flash it in like merfolk and it kills retreat interaction. And I'm currently testing clique as well as a 1-of main. It's seemed good
Again theres mixed feelings, it seems like its maybe a 70-30 split? Between CoCo and non-CoCo lists. I have the same sentiments in that i dislike playing CoCo and not knowing what im going to get or if im even going to get anything other than a bird. I played it a bunch with the Abzan lists when they came out and got burned by that card a bunch. but more than that i dislike the deck building restictions.
Personally i prefer being able to include more interactive cards, and in order to fight the board wipes or grind with value like you say ive been using kitchen finks and restoration angels. And at this point have had much better feelings with the deck than CoCo.
There are some great looking Zoo lists, and not all run Goyf as stated by Pokken and Mantis. Others run goyf and they look good too. I mean, Goyf is Goyf, it can be a great card but its not a 4-of corner piece here like it is in Jund. I think its very replaceable but also nothing wrong with running it. I play a strictly non-Zoo Bant midrange build. I haven't done enough testing to know if its better or worse than the zoo decks, definitely less popular though. Ive only managed to take it to one FMN as my shop runs modern on mondays and this week was canadian thanksgiving. But in the one week i did run it i went 4-0 so it at least isn't terrible.
To simplify your last question, the ONLY reason people have red and the zoo version is because bolt is a great magic card and Wild Nacatyl is aggressive. And then the jury is still out on kessig and stronghold but they're there too. So why straight Bant? slightly easier mana base, and access to a little more of what blue has to offer, re: counterspells, and also these zoo lists seem to also all be CoCo lists. some people don't believe in/like its consistency and deck building restrictions so Bant offers a bit more flexibility there with anything from Ojutai to resto to hangarback.
Hope that helps! so at this point Zoo and Goyf are not known to be better than Bant, but its still very early to be saying for sure either way.
My meta is pretty evenly distributed with all the tier 1 and 2 decks with a slightly higher population of Tron (both U and GR) on any given night you can be pretty much guaranteed that there is a twin player and at least 2-3 zoo players though. If i understand the question right, its pretty much how often does comboing turn 3 put me into Bolt range?
Simply very rarely if ever. But thats more because you don't pick that line against agro/red reach decks. and heres why you don't need to.
If they're aggressive: zoo and any 3 colour deck (URW, URB, GBR, WBG) they are also aggressive with their life totals so you don't need to fill the GY with all your lands. so you can either make the knight around a 14/14 and get there not finding and cracking fetches, in which case comboing cost you minimal-to-no life. or you can even just settle for making knight a 8/8 and get there over 2 turns. I see the combo as more of a way to handle the uninteractive decks. elves, tron, infect, affinity and the like. Its so rare to have to kill somebody from 20 life. Being a creature deck theres lots of other dudes to help along the way.
And on a final note I'm actually more of a grinder as well when it comes to this deck. Ill mirror what Pokken just said in that for me, between 3 finks, 3 restos, 2 dromokas command and E witness to rebuy things, the deck gains a ton of life that if you need to switch gears, play the long game, and protect the life total it does great. I feel the deck should be favoured against any dedicated burn especially if your more not the midrange list like mine or Pokkens
yeah totally, i play 23 lands (3 non-forest/plains) and on turn three (having gone nobel -> knight -> retreat (obviously as its the only way to T3) ) you can have 20 lands in the GY + KotR being a 2/2 + exalted so turn 3 swing for 23. If you're going for absolute max (at least with my set up) you can also float mana and Gavony for another +1 and also ghost quarter your own land adds to the count. so absolute max is 2/2 + 22 lands in GY + exalted + Gavony = 26 damage turn 3
i agree that kessig isn't needed, id rather use gavony as my mana sink as it plays betting incremental advantage. you don't have to tap out on the attack step to then get your threat removed. instead you sit defence, hold mana up for counters, restos, CoCo's or whatever and if they don't do anything everything gets a +1. eventually everything you have will be too large to deal with