If there was a UG tango I would play that, but the UW tango has proven to be disastrous by not being able to get green. All our lands need to make green as much as possible for courser to hit early.
Running 8 dorks, 4 kotr, and no township is frowntown. Card is way better than wolf run imho.
Its probably a safe bet the Simic tango land will get printed in Oath of zendikar so only a little bit of a wait for that. And i can't agree more on Gavony, in any build, if beat down is any part of the plan, gavony goes the distance
9 fetches
5 shocks
2 tangos
5 basics (1 is an island)
2 utility
With this there are a total of 3 lands that can be cycled by KotR. It is a very delicate balance and i haven't found it yet, i might go back down to 8 fetches and add another tango. But i feel like he deck wants a decent number of basics. I think 12 fetches is very high
Cool does it combo off quickly enough and reliably enough, another card to consider is wargate, which will find and put onto the battlefeild both retreat and KotR
I think it looks right now Barbe, my one critique would be the number of creatures for collected company. The primers been updated now, so if you look at page 1 of the thread they have a graph showing the math behind CoCo. With only 21 creature you only have a 70% chance of hitting 2 creatures. If you ignore the Heirarch as creatures that are like a miss anyways than it drops to about 50% of hitting anything that will progress your game plan.
That said I really like your creature base, I like the spells, I would just lean more on easy or the other being less coco and more spells/interaction, or drop all spells but the coco, paths and retreats and max out on creatures to make coco more reliable.
Have you had a chance to play test it? How has it felt?
I think the zoo shell has a bit of a harder match with burn as both the zoo deck and burn are racing each other and zoo has to play loose with its life total to do that. slower builds actually have decent amounts of life gain, be it courser or finks. In the list i posted a few back, running 3 main deck finks, plus resto to rebuy their effects and 2 dromokas command to blank a burn spells makes for what I've felt to be a good burn match-up. And it only gets better from there once you bring in the SB
that would probably help. I find non-MTGO online magic just too draining to be effective. for me its really physical cards or nothing. But BfZ hits MTGO this friday correct? so this should probably open up a lot more viable testing for a lot more people.
Thanks Pokken! Reveillark seems like good value but would have to take Dragonlords spot and she's been so good the few times she's landed. I'm hoping to one day land a turn 3 Ojutai. But id give reveilark a shot because it leaving the field is like drawing and playing 2 cards.
I think you and me are on a "relatively" similar style of deck at this point with the biggest difference being I currently have finks where your hangars are, both fill that persistent threat role, finks is faster but hangarback is higher impact.
Anyways whats your current list looking like? any changes big or small?
Have you tested courser in your midrange version? It seems like a reasonable fit, but what do I know. The 3-spot does seem crowded in your list.
I have not tested him yet but your right for sure, he could be good for the deck. Courser would probably start out in the finks spot. Possibly one of the retreats could be taken out as another slot as courser helps us get through the library more quickly so 4 might not be needed.
the sideboard is a mess. its just generic good stuff in Bant colours. have to do a lot more gauntlet testing before i really get an idea of where the decks weaknesses lie within the meta. But i really liked having the counterspells. mana leak might be wrong still but its a good place to start. maybe either spell snare or a negate or some mix is better, but they were at least ok. they won me a few games or at leasts opened up the paths to victory by stopping key disruption.
I can't find a Sejeri Step to save my life so thats why I'm not playing one but the deck i don't think needs anything cute like kessig, it goes big enough on its own. one play i liked tonight, knowing i wasn't going to win through combo was to grab a gavony with the knight to make my finks almost impossible to remove. I might look at better land tool boxes. Ghost quarter didn't do much but i still think id want access to at least one. but most definitely ill never leave home without the gavony.
Ive been a big advocate (and still am) for the midrange style. i prefer to have resilient cheap beats and enough interaction to stop from loosing to other combo decks. even at our fastest, other decks are generally faster on average so i don't think thats the angle we need to be attacking from. I found the deck had a ton of different gears. being able to sit behind walls when blocks were needed and press the advantage when the opening appeared. Ojutia was an allstar as well, and i got to use her along side the retreat. i knew he had a path but he didn't even try to use it because i had an untracked fetch and a retreat. that was a sweet feeling just being allowed to walk in there and attack in the air. and i got to keep it untracked and do it agin next turn!
ALRIGHT EVERYONE! I'm confident enough to say that this deck has the cajones to hang with big kids. I didn't think the deck was ready to bust out at the Monday Night Magic but at the last second i decided, what do i have to lose. So I took Bant Nightfall through my first real tournament and went 4-0. Deck just played so sick. combo'd twice through the night, it really is a plan B but when it happens it steals games.
Round 1 was against Grixis Twin: (2-0) Goyf beats got there before he could find an opening to combo me, he a great clock. Held up a single plains for path all game as protection. He was desperate enough to try to use exarch as a fog by tapping down my goyf which i responded with cracking a fetch and untapping with RtC to keep the beats coming. Game 2 got to alpha strike with 2 knights which were at 9/9 each.
Round 2 was UW control: (2-1) very one sided games 1 and 3. fast resilient threats that fight through verdicts like finks and voice. the second game he got me, he shadow of doubted me turns 1 and 2. (who plays that card? and has 2 in the opening hand, needless to say i got wrecked game 2 without lands) but the others were very decisive.
Round 3 was Naya Burn: (2-1) he got a little flooded game 1, game 2 I got a little mana screwed after he stone rained my breeding pool turn 3 and I never found another land other than my basic plains. game 3 lots of life gain and blue counterspells to stop his important stuff. he was a little salty to lose to such a "junk" deck
round 4 was Amulet Bloom: (2-0) Game one I actually got to live the dream. turn 1 nobel, turn 2 Knight, turn three retreat. he even got his good opening with a turn 2 titan. had to be very careful with sequencing cause i needed to go down to 1 life to get the knight to be a lethal, he was very patient as i took a long time learning how to combo in the absolute lets painful way. game 2 was very back and forth between pathing titans and negating hive minds and trying to present my own clock.
all in all i had no idea the deck would actually be able to put up such a good fight. i was just hoping to get some experience and learn what direction it needs to go. theres definitely room for that but gong 4-0 was a good foot to set off on. There was a small crowd super keen to watch too. the deck is very exciting and can have explosive turns. I was super worried it was all hype but i think its the real deal, especially against top their decks.
1) Artifacts. Knight gives us the ability to easily tutor up Academy ruins (and darksteel citadel for that matter), Hangarback is really good in the deck, and there are a few strong artifact creatures who tap. Play thirst for knowledge. trinket mage is insane for Hangarback.
Repeatedly activating steel overseer might be worth the price of admission to an artifact heavy deck, and in colors with plenty of removal (even maindeck answers with Dromoka's) for stony silence.
Pokken ive given some thought to this and there is some intersting stuff. Given a knightfall core of retreat to coralhelm and knight of the reliquary with a focus on artifacts you get tutorability of academy ruins and the blinkmoths and artifacts interacting with tap abilities.
Ive been trying to think of what the deck looks like and have come up with ideas of everything from light splashes of artifacts to basically being the afinity deck with knightfall jammed in. Nothing looked better than existing affinity decks but admitedly it is one of my least understood archetypes regarding its intricacies. I might put in a theory craft of what i think a robotic knight fall would look like, but the deck might not even need KotR. Maybe just a retreat is good enough to abuse steel overseer and hangarback.
Maybe you can help me come up with a list of artifacts that could fit the bill. So far the only cards id say should definitly go in are: KotR, Retreat, Arcbound, Steel Overseer and Hangarback.
Im still on the midrange archtype but i like to try to brew every corner and obscure posibility of a deck as green as this
I thinks thats more combos than you really need. Molton vortex and knight opperate on completely different axis. Youre going to want a beat down plan and a combo plan, whichever it is
I'm thinking of going bant, dropping coco and putting in some other card advantage along with some spells. Aside from Courser and maybe Jace/visions what other CA do we really have access too?
theres always sphinx's revelation but were in blue, king of card draw so theres lots of stuff depending on how you want to commit to it. Even something like perilous research turns their removal into card draw, and helps mitigate flood or cycle useless mana dorks.
thats just card draw. there are many things like Pokken pointed out that enable 2-for-1s in our favour like finks or resto or the academy package. Currently I am using Dragonlord ojutai as a beefy finisher/card advantage engine
Great to see the primer rolling out! It's looking good so far and I like the official name change. Now we just need some official games and results to start building it up.
That's rough with the blood moons, but that's a weakness for any 3 colour deck. Luckily we can mainboard dromoka's as a hedge. As well as Heirarch helps fight through and the deck can pretty safely fetch basics and still operate. In fact I've been fetching basics more and more while playing with some of the tango lands. I think this deck might have an easier time than other 3 colour non red decks against blood moon. But in the end blood moon is blood moon and it can wreck you
Its probably a safe bet the Simic tango land will get printed in Oath of zendikar so only a little bit of a wait for that. And i can't agree more on Gavony, in any build, if beat down is any part of the plan, gavony goes the distance
9 fetches
5 shocks
2 tangos
5 basics (1 is an island)
2 utility
With this there are a total of 3 lands that can be cycled by KotR. It is a very delicate balance and i haven't found it yet, i might go back down to 8 fetches and add another tango. But i feel like he deck wants a decent number of basics. I think 12 fetches is very high
That said I really like your creature base, I like the spells, I would just lean more on easy or the other being less coco and more spells/interaction, or drop all spells but the coco, paths and retreats and max out on creatures to make coco more reliable.
Have you had a chance to play test it? How has it felt?
I think you and me are on a "relatively" similar style of deck at this point with the biggest difference being I currently have finks where your hangars are, both fill that persistent threat role, finks is faster but hangarback is higher impact.
Anyways whats your current list looking like? any changes big or small?
I have not tested him yet but your right for sure, he could be good for the deck. Courser would probably start out in the finks spot. Possibly one of the retreats could be taken out as another slot as courser helps us get through the library more quickly so 4 might not be needed.
4 noble hierarch
3 voice of resurgence
2 tarmogoyf
1 coiling oracle
4 knight of the reliquary
3 kitchen finks
2 eternal witness
3 restoration angel
1 dragonlord ojutai
spells
4 path to exile
2 dromoka's command
3 mana leak
4 retreat to coralhelm
1 elspeth, knight-errant
4 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
2 temple garden
2 breeding pool
1 hallowed fountain
1 canopy vista
1 prairie stream
3 forest
1 plains
1 island
1 gavony township
1 ghost quarter
2 dispel
1 negate
2 hindering light
2 scavenging ooze
2 stony silence
1 obstinate baloth
1 spellskite
2 geist of saint traft
1 disenchant
1 detention sphere
the sideboard is a mess. its just generic good stuff in Bant colours. have to do a lot more gauntlet testing before i really get an idea of where the decks weaknesses lie within the meta. But i really liked having the counterspells. mana leak might be wrong still but its a good place to start. maybe either spell snare or a negate or some mix is better, but they were at least ok. they won me a few games or at leasts opened up the paths to victory by stopping key disruption.
I can't find a Sejeri Step to save my life so thats why I'm not playing one but the deck i don't think needs anything cute like kessig, it goes big enough on its own. one play i liked tonight, knowing i wasn't going to win through combo was to grab a gavony with the knight to make my finks almost impossible to remove. I might look at better land tool boxes. Ghost quarter didn't do much but i still think id want access to at least one. but most definitely ill never leave home without the gavony.
Ive been a big advocate (and still am) for the midrange style. i prefer to have resilient cheap beats and enough interaction to stop from loosing to other combo decks. even at our fastest, other decks are generally faster on average so i don't think thats the angle we need to be attacking from. I found the deck had a ton of different gears. being able to sit behind walls when blocks were needed and press the advantage when the opening appeared. Ojutia was an allstar as well, and i got to use her along side the retreat. i knew he had a path but he didn't even try to use it because i had an untracked fetch and a retreat. that was a sweet feeling just being allowed to walk in there and attack in the air. and i got to keep it untracked and do it agin next turn!
Round 1 was against Grixis Twin: (2-0) Goyf beats got there before he could find an opening to combo me, he a great clock. Held up a single plains for path all game as protection. He was desperate enough to try to use exarch as a fog by tapping down my goyf which i responded with cracking a fetch and untapping with RtC to keep the beats coming. Game 2 got to alpha strike with 2 knights which were at 9/9 each.
Round 2 was UW control: (2-1) very one sided games 1 and 3. fast resilient threats that fight through verdicts like finks and voice. the second game he got me, he shadow of doubted me turns 1 and 2. (who plays that card? and has 2 in the opening hand, needless to say i got wrecked game 2 without lands) but the others were very decisive.
Round 3 was Naya Burn: (2-1) he got a little flooded game 1, game 2 I got a little mana screwed after he stone rained my breeding pool turn 3 and I never found another land other than my basic plains. game 3 lots of life gain and blue counterspells to stop his important stuff. he was a little salty to lose to such a "junk" deck
round 4 was Amulet Bloom: (2-0) Game one I actually got to live the dream. turn 1 nobel, turn 2 Knight, turn three retreat. he even got his good opening with a turn 2 titan. had to be very careful with sequencing cause i needed to go down to 1 life to get the knight to be a lethal, he was very patient as i took a long time learning how to combo in the absolute lets painful way. game 2 was very back and forth between pathing titans and negating hive minds and trying to present my own clock.
all in all i had no idea the deck would actually be able to put up such a good fight. i was just hoping to get some experience and learn what direction it needs to go. theres definitely room for that but gong 4-0 was a good foot to set off on. There was a small crowd super keen to watch too. the deck is very exciting and can have explosive turns. I was super worried it was all hype but i think its the real deal, especially against top their decks.
Pokken ive given some thought to this and there is some intersting stuff. Given a knightfall core of retreat to coralhelm and knight of the reliquary with a focus on artifacts you get tutorability of academy ruins and the blinkmoths and artifacts interacting with tap abilities.
Ive been trying to think of what the deck looks like and have come up with ideas of everything from light splashes of artifacts to basically being the afinity deck with knightfall jammed in. Nothing looked better than existing affinity decks but admitedly it is one of my least understood archetypes regarding its intricacies. I might put in a theory craft of what i think a robotic knight fall would look like, but the deck might not even need KotR. Maybe just a retreat is good enough to abuse steel overseer and hangarback.
Maybe you can help me come up with a list of artifacts that could fit the bill. So far the only cards id say should definitly go in are: KotR, Retreat, Arcbound, Steel Overseer and Hangarback.
Im still on the midrange archtype but i like to try to brew every corner and obscure posibility of a deck as green as this
theres always sphinx's revelation but were in blue, king of card draw so theres lots of stuff depending on how you want to commit to it. Even something like perilous research turns their removal into card draw, and helps mitigate flood or cycle useless mana dorks.
thats just card draw. there are many things like Pokken pointed out that enable 2-for-1s in our favour like finks or resto or the academy package. Currently I am using Dragonlord ojutai as a beefy finisher/card advantage engine
That's rough with the blood moons, but that's a weakness for any 3 colour deck. Luckily we can mainboard dromoka's as a hedge. As well as Heirarch helps fight through and the deck can pretty safely fetch basics and still operate. In fact I've been fetching basics more and more while playing with some of the tango lands. I think this deck might have an easier time than other 3 colour non red decks against blood moon. But in the end blood moon is blood moon and it can wreck you