What do y'all think of this list? I played UR then Grixis but now I'm gonna try switching it up to splashing for tarmogoyfs because I feel it presents a more proactive gameplan even though it doesn't have answers that are as good as Grixis. Also from my testing, the mana has been much better than in Grixis, because in RUG the green is just a light splash. Honestly the mana requirements of the Grixis deck are the worst thing about it.
I'm trying to fit a Jace, Architect of Thought in my side for twin and grindy matchups also, just can't decide what I'd cut for it.
Anyway, the list is pretty run of the mill. I'm trying out the maindeck spell pierces cause they're a good hedge against burn and then also discard spells on the play, collected company and just other random stuff. The two huntmasters are for when I board out the combo, they come in against grindier matchups and also of course burn. I like them because they do so much work if they survive (don't play anything on your turn, then counter something on theirs, that way you get 2 flips), and even if they don't you got value out of them.
Seems like a fairly stock list which should work fairly well in a wide metagame. If you want to look at details then you might consider going up to 23 lands in the maindeck since you're "only" running 1 Probe apart from the 4 Serum Visions, Electrolyze is another cantrip of course but its much more expensive. It's only marginal of course but could perhaps affect your grindier matchups. Ghost Quarter is of course ace against Amulet and Tron, personally I'm running Desolate Lighthouse since the only matchups where it's worse than Ghost Quarters are already good matchups. It's a matter of taste and meta.
I'd cut either Izzet Staticaster or Engineered Explosives for the Jace. Its a solid card against a lot of grindy matches where you typically want to cut down on Twin.
G1: First hand of the night was 4 Lands, Lightning Bolt, Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin on the play. Since I knew my opponent would 90% be on Elves I snap kept. After Bolting his first Heritage Druid which was followed by another copy, was able to combo out T4 with him on 1 less mana for Chord-Spellskite.
G2: Opened with 2 lands (1 Fetch 1 Sulfur Falls), 2 Anger of the Gods, 2 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Cryptic Command - loose keep? Kept anyway. Game went late with me sandbagging Dispels for 3(!) Collected Company with Snap waiting for the 4th. Burrenton Forge Tender managed to stall the game as I was too greedy with Angers. Eventually fired one off after landing a Tasigur to which he sac'd it. Following turn fired off the 2nd and it was all Tasigur from there. He was eventually down to 8 with a Spellskite in play so I couldn't combo off. Jace came in and went double -2 to find Bolt and Snap to seal the deal.
1-0
R2: Burn
G1: Thinking I was playing Bloom or Twin (I knew the guy, those were what he usually played) I kept a hand of 3-4 lands, double Remand and Deceiver Exarch. Needless to say, I got ed.
G2: Goblin Guide was the all star here. I opened with just 2 lands, both combo pieces, Terminate, Bolt and Dispel. GG found me the lands I needed before I decided to Bolt him to seal the deal with 4 or so life left.
G3: Burn deck flooded, wooooooo!! Again though, Goblin Guide FTW.
2-0
R3: RG Tron
G1: Opened with 2 Pestermite, 1 Exarch but no Twin. I managed to delay his Tron from getting online with 3 tappers until Twin finally decided to come around for the win.
IN: 1 Blood Moon, 1 Vandalblast, 1 Negate, 1 Keranos, God of Storms OUT: 2 Dispel, 2 Lightning Bolt
G2: Kept a hand with an Exarch, Remand, Serum Visions and lands. Flooded the **** out with him going T2 Spellskite T3 Tron online. I managed to stall the game drawing 4 Remands, killing off 2 Spellskite with Kommand but no combo piece with only 2 Exarch beating him. Eventually landed Emrakul, LOL.
G3: Grindy as hell. Remand was the MVP here managing to stall the game even though he went T4/5 Tron. Brain fart - landed moon with 7 lands in play but no Swamp. He managed to grind me out until he found Nature's Claim then landed Emrakul. Welp.
2-1
R4: RUG Scapeshift
G1: Was a bit grindy. Wasn't able to figure out he was Scapeshift until T4 or so when he suspended a Search for Tomorrow. Kommand went MVP here when he went top deck mode and I started bouncing dead Snaps and making him discard whatever he drew. Won with Twin after a counterwar over Scapshift and with Dispels sealing the deal.
IN: 1 Keranos, God of Storms (which was probably bad), 1 Blood Moon, 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, 2 Dispel, 1 Negate OUT: 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Terminate, 2 Pestermite, 1 Twin
G2: I opened with combo pieces and decided to keep. He managed to Echoing Truth my double Pestermite when I was going for the combo and things went downhill from there. He tried landing a Teferi which managed to drain out my counters (Dreadship Reef!) but he was in top deck mode from there. Unfortunately for me, he drew the Scapeshift...
G3: Mana drought I banked on the Dreadship Reef but he managed to Command it after storing 4 mana. Got stuck on 5 lands the whole game. A timely Clique when I topdeck'd Blood Moon was just sad. I won a counter battle over Teferi (which just ended up in his hand). A few turns later, he managed to resolve it and combo'd out.
2-2
R5: CoCo Abzan - he conceded to me as he was 13th whilst I was 10th after R4.
9th place was sad, but a lot was learned. I need practice playing Blood Moon. I was never really a fan of the card, but I now realize how much of a necessary evil it is. Will be bumping it up to 2. Dispel was the MVP the whole tourney but I don't think going all in on 4 is such a good idea. Will probably be taking that out for the 2nd Moon. The 2nd Spellskite probably will have to go as well, it was underwhelming. I'm not sure if I missed the 2nd Cryptic. There was exactly 0 times I wished I had it instead of a Dispel but that could just have been variance. Will need to know what you guys think! Thanks.
Paulo Vitor Rosa wrote an article about Grixis Twin on CFB just now. His list seems interesting, playing UR Twin main deck and then only "going Grixis" postboard. It does make sense as UR Twin tends to be better at comboing out game 1 while Grixis tends to go the control route more often. Post board Grixis has a better gameplan against UR. You can find the list here.
I disagree about the Dismember though. More often than not its gonna cost you more life than Terminates.
Thoughts?
Also, is everyone still on the Blood Moon plan postboard?
SB question............. SIDING OUT THE COMBO?!!?!?
ive heard so many mix opinions on this, take out all 10 take out 4 twins and pestermite leave all in go down to a few copies..
what are your guys thoughts? first when i started to play i boarded out the combo, as in 2 pestermite and 4 twin (i play 4-4-2) but so many times ive come to a situation g2 or g3 where my opponent just taps out and im sitting with a deciver in hand.. and thinking darn i wish i kept it in lol.. anyways, im trying to keep it in more often than not now, its just so easy for them to tap and and then "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa dun". but thats just me. thoughts?
Initially I used to side out all the combo against Jund, Junk, Delver but lately I like to have 1 Splinter Twin post SB. Generally because Grixis Twin is really, REALLY good post SB with its attrition game and can easily stall or even outstand those decks if well played, and Splinter Twin just wins on the spot if the game goes long. I obviously side out some creature, depending on the match, but keep the singleton Twin in.
Ditto. I like leaving 1 Twin in and some number of creatures of course. The deck's really good at forcing stalemates then you just win on the spot with the combo.
Thinking about a build with 3 tasigur and 2 thought scour
I took out 2 pcs of the combo (1 twin 1 exarch) to make room for 2 Thoughtscour. I might take out 1 Terminate in favor of Murderous Cut due to this change.
So after a few disappointing finishes with Grixis Delver, decided to go the Twin route for now. Above is the deck list I'm going to start with. The SB is supposed to attack an open meta, as I like building my decks that way. Am not sure if dedicating all 10 slots to combo is the perfect route for Grixis so I'm starting with 8. The Thought Scours I did my best to include as a T2 Tasigur can sometimes just run away with the game.
Looking over the last couple of pages I noticed a few of you were commenting on how Jund is an even to favorable matchup. I played in a Daily event online the other night and got absolutely smashed by them losing 2-0 twice. I'm running a traditional grixis delver list too. Can anyone give me some insight on how to play against this deck and SB tech? I feel that they have more answers and threats than we have. Definitely seems like an attrition war.
I had the same experience while testing. I defeated Jund sometimes, but he definitely looks like having the upper hand. I think I've come to understand why (apart from late game Ooze that wins alone against us):
If the Jund players uses his discard spells, his removals, his bolts, his kolaghans and his lilianas to target our creatures, WE SIMPLY WON'T HAVE ANY CREATURE LEFT MOST OF THE TIME. Just look at the numbers. We usually run 14 creatures. They pack 5 to 6 discard spells, 13 to 15 removals including Bolt and Kolaghan and 3 to 4 Liliana. Since Maths is not an opinion, if the opponent is smart enough to use all these cards to target our creatures, it's 21/25 to 14 for them. But this is just maindeck. Post side things get worse: their spot removals increase in number and they also bring in Anger of the Gods.
I've noticed that when I was winning, it was always for one of those 3 reasons:
1. Luck (very good draws for me and/or very bad draws for Jund);
2. My opponent not understanding what i wrote above (using his discard spells not on my creatures, using his Kolaghans not on my creatures, using Terminate on Delver/Pyro and then finding himself with Bolt against Tasigur, not using Liliana as a removal etc);
3. Me being able to use the full power of Young Pyromancer for like 2-3 turns, getting more than 5-6 tokens and then winning with the tokens;
But to me the truth is, if we're not too lucky/our opponent is not too unlucky, if the opponent goes for the correct gameplan (crush all our creatures), this is an hard game for us. Luckily for us, many Jund players seem not to follow the correct gameplan against us. We're still kind of a "new" deck and some of them have yet to understand how to deal with it correctly.
Anyway, this is what I'm currently testing. Now I start to feel confident about my list, although I still have doubts and I still don't like my Jund MU:
Running 3x Inquisition of Kozilek maindeck: what can I say, I don't understand why not to run them. It's almost always: one card for your best card. I'll do that anytime. It doesn't slow us down that much, it's just 3/60, still works fine with Delver, Pyro and Snapcaster. Makes some MUs significantly better, it's very versatile, works for example also against Burn;
Running only 2 counters maindeck, 4 in the 75: in order to be aggressive you need to tap out in the first turns or anyway use some mana, also for our countrips and removals. You don't quite get to stay mana open for counters. To me, it's better to just run Kozilek, that always gets the best card. The only counter I would consider adding is Spell Pierce because it just requires one mana. But right now Kozilek has those slots. Snare and Pierce are fine, but I don't like Deprive and Mana Leak in this version of the deck that still wants to be aggressive. Those counters cause me to keep my threats in my hand because I'm worried to have to counter something, and as a result I lose too much time;
Running 2x Rakdos Charm: many people argue against this card in this thread, but to me, it is so good sometimes I think about running 3. It's so versatile, I used it in so many different situations. It allowed me surprise wins against Twin and Elves;
I'm thinking about cutting Electrolyze, both from maindeck and sideboard, it looks underperforming right now, but I'm still hesitant. On the other hand, I'm thinking about playing Forked Bolt and increasing the number of Deathmark. I'm also thinking about cutting Countersquall, most times I don't even know if I should side that card in or not and it never really proved very useful.
I do not agree with how you feel with Jund. Surely, if every player could open with all 60 cards, Jund can straight away 1:1 all our threats and beat us to a pulp. But that's not how Magic works. I agree with what most people have been saying in this thread - that this deck can beat anything, but can be really unforgiving. To be able to beat Jund, you have to understand how the deck works. Delver decks in general tend to try to win through small, incremental advantages. They may have discard to strip us off our best card, but we have Probe and Visions to try and outplay them. Inquisition just doesn't fit the tempo game plan - yes discarding Decay before dropping Delver/Pyro is good, but that one black mana could have been used to drop a post-combat Tasigur instead with Spell Pierce backup for your opponent's T3 Lili. Good cards jammed together don't necessarily make a deck good. Your good cards should work together with a common goal (out-tempo your opponent) to win.
If you're having problems with jund, it's not the deck, go back and figure out the mistakes you're making each game. Delver is not very forgiving. I feel this is the match-up with the most play to it.
I cut the electrolyze and the 3rd Kcommand in the sideboard. Mostly to be a little leaner. I feel like playing well gets me ahead enough as is.
The best sideboard counter for me has easily been dispel.
I agree on all points, especially the point about Dispel.
If you're having problems with jund, it's not the deck, go back and figure out the mistakes you're making each game. Delver is not very forgiving. I feel this is the match-up with the most play to it.
I cut the electrolyze and the 3rd Kcommand in the sideboard. Mostly to be a little leaner. I feel like playing well gets me ahead enough as is.
The best sideboard counter for me has easily been dispel.
This. Actually, everything ima1 says in this thread is on-point. I find the Jund matchup very easy, especially with Probes.
I agree with the point about Probes. I'm about to put back the 4th Probe simply because of the resurgence of Jund.
@ gdfyu: Your list seems a bit "heavy", with 2x Mana Leak, 2x Kolaghan, 2x Remand...it's interesting that you had good results because I'd like to play Delver that way, a bit more controlling, maybe even with 1x/2x Vendilion Cique and yea, Remand which is great in tempo decks...
Honestly, vs most match-ups I feel like I'm playing an attrition game rather then a tempo-game. Our deck feels like an attrition deck, that has capable tempo-hands. Though, I do feel like the RUG deck is almost strictly a tempo deck.
The whole disrupting shoal angel is interesting to me. If I wanted to try it I think i'd start here:
I'm happy with grixis right now though. I really like being able to fight form both angels. It doesn't surprise me to see more people migrating away from delvers. They do offer free wins, but they can also be inconsistent or a liability. This is the list I'm currently running.
Death's shadow has been amazing. I've been siding my delvers out in the mirror in favor of them. Having something bigger then angel/tasigur/goyf is huge. I noticed in a lot of different match-ups I'm either siding out delvers or bolts. Electroylze has been pretty average for me, I think we can do better. I've been happy with everything else. My sideboard is short a few cards and I'm not really sure what I want, they'll prob just be blood moons.
What do you guys think of possibly shying away from delver and being a more of a delve/value deck?
I've been thinking of getting Delver out of the deck, too recently. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Delver fan boy coming from a Legacy background (played RUG, URW and bURG Delver with some decent local finishes). Still, the lack of Daze and FoW to support the "protect the queen" does certainly hurt us a bit. I've noticed that even with Delvers, the deck does seem to have the ability to grind out wins unlike its Legacy counterparts. Its tempting to either have some sort of midrange creature plan post-board and side out Delver or get him out of the deck entirely.
On the other hand, Pyro feels really good right now. Going T1 Delver, eat removal, then T2 Pyro into Probe is such a huge tempo boost on the play.
I think if this deck wants to survive, we have to move to disrupting shoal. Its not in a good spot right now
I do not agree with your last statement, but I do agree that its worth trying Disrupting Shoal in the deck. The only downside I see is the fact that we'd need to replace perhaps some removal spells in favor of more blue cards to support Shoal.
Siding out varies per match of course. I tend to side probes and distortion strike out most, for more protection or whatever is needed. But it really varies per match.
Siding is an art form. And it greatly varies from one matchup to another. I might side-out distortion strike vs burn, but I would not side-out distortion strike vs Abzan, or in the mirror.
Yeah Distortion Strike definitely stays in against Abzan.
I guess correct me if I'm wrong guys:
Abzan: -2 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand -1 Pierce +3 Spellskite +1 Carrion Call
Grixis Delver: -4 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand +2 Spell Pierce +3 Spellskite (Are Dispels worth siding in?)
Twin: -1 Sleight of Hand -3 Probe -2 Distortion Strike +3 Spellskite +2 Dispel +1 Carrion Call (+3 Twisted Image if they play Spellskite)
Burn: -2 Distortion Strike -4 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand +3 Spellskite +2 Dispel +2 Spell Pierce
UWR: -2 Distortion Strike -4 Probe +1 Carrion Call +2 Dispel +3 Spellskite (Against Midrange I'll keep Distortion over Call)
I play the Team Pantheon Infect with very minor differences in the main (I love me some Groundswell). Anyway, my question is what cards do you side out first? I figure it will be the 2 Distortion Strike first followed by the 1 off Sleight of Hand. But I figure in some matchups I'd love to board in more than just 3 cards, case in point against Grixis Delver - I think I want Spellskites and Spell Pierces in, hell maybe even Dispel. I don't wanna dilute the "combo" by boarding out pump spells so which cards usually go out first?
Young Pyromancer is out. Took them out in favor of more spells and another Gurmag Angler. I don't like how Deprive bounces our already painful shocklands at the moment, but I'll test it when I get them. I'd like to think my main deck is solid, but I'd love to fit 1-2 Kolaghan's Command in there somewhere.
[quote from="sherwinko7 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/598510-grixis-delver?comment=1128"]
This maindeck looks pretty much fine. Not sure what Moutz was saying exactly about starting from a winning list and working backwards, since this maindeck is essentially 4 cards different than many of the winning lists we've seen lately.
I would encourage you to stick to Electrolyze over Forked Bolt. We really need the cantrip, and the instant speed is also very very helpful. Being able to EOT sweep half a Lingering Souls, or snipe Affinity guys in response to equipping Plating, or ping off any weenies your Death/Taxes opponent casts/flashes in during their turn is really helpful. Being instant speed means Electrolyze will often actually be a 3-for-1, but at worst it's a 2-for-1. Forked Bolt is still great at what it does and it's very efficient, but without Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise, it's not as good.
The only maindeck changes I would recommend would be adding a Mountain in place of a Shores or Falls, and trimming a Remand/Mana Leak for a Murderous Cut.
I'm not a fan of the sideboard, as you have several cards that seem unnecessary or redundant with maindeck material, but you can build it however you think is best for you meta. I'd personally still stay pretty close to Nate Kahovec's list though for starters, and work from there: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84353
Moving onto other discussions: Monastery Swiftspear seems really strange as a 2-of. I think you either commit to it and run all 4, or you are better off with any other threat in its stead. It's a card you want in play early, before casting all your spells, so it seems logical to have a full set.
If I was going to play Swifty, the list would probably start with 4 Swiftspear, 4 Delver, 4 Pyro, 12 cantrips, 10+ Burn spells, and possibly Goblin Guide.
I initially said I didn't run Blood Moon because I "didn't feel like it" but then edited it out as I couldn't find the right words to explain my stand LOL (sorry English isn't my first language!). I am planning to run it when I get it.
Monastery Swiftspear looks interesting, but yeah it would probably play better with more cantrips and burn, and it would take the place of YP most likely.
I like Rakdos Charm simply because of its flexibility. I'd probably get rid of Izzet Staticaster, Shattering Spree and even 1 Kolaghan's Command first before I touch the charm. Then again, pretty sure I have less experience with the deck than most people here at the moment.
Oh, and I'd probably add a 3rd Terminate or 3rd Gurmag Angler to the main before even thinking of adding Murderous Cut at the moment. Worth a try though.
My current deck list, looking to get your insights. I'm trying to build to fight a wide open meta.
I like the additional counters, as well as less one-offs in the main. I'm torn with Electrolyze as I feel like Forked Bolt does the job better albeit its at Sorcery speed. The SB needs a lot of work I think, especially against Burn. I feel like 4 Dragon's Claw is a must (I only own 2 at the moment though, and I hate Death's Shadow). Deathmark could replace the Terminate. I love the flexibility on Rakdos Charm! Kolaghan's Command am not really sold on in the board, I feel its better in the main but can't seem to find the slot/s for it.
hi together,
I just won a small local tournament with a bit a brew of this deck.
First i liked the idea of a grixis Delver deck - i play delver in legacy since years.
But after a bit of testing with the most common lists i wanted to take another line with the deck.
First i cutted all the air spells (gitaxian probe, thoghtscour) for some real cards (inquisition, Dark confidant)
and then the murderous cuts for terminates because of dark confidant and delving issues...
2nd round: jund 1-2 (lost because 2 delvers didn't flip for 5 turns)
3rd round: grixis twin 2-1
4th round: ur twin 2-1 (lost first game after hi was down to 4 life (0 handcards) and me having a flipped delver,tasigur,pyromancer and a token army - he had a pestermite and topdecks splintertwin)
5th round: draw for top 8
quarters: Burn 2-0 (i think this version of the deck makes our burn matchup much better)
Semi Final: Affinity 2-0 (he didn't have very good draws - so easy wins)
Final: Jund 2-0 (uncontested dark confidant took over both games)
Fazit: very happy with the deck - discard, dark cofidant and kolaghan's command overperformed the hole day...
sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language
Man, Bob with Anglers and Tasigur, you've got balls sir! Salute!
Anyway, would like to get your opinions on the creature base. I am currently playing below:
That zombie fish is the tits. I printed out the deck and just tested against Little Kid Junk (2-3) but overall it felt like a 50-50, Twin (wrecked Twin 3-1) and Esper Mentor (3-1 or 3-2 I think). Overall deck feels solid being all in on the Delve plan. Note that all these were G1's, I haven't printed the SB's as I like building one myself and today was my first run with it. Took out all Pyros and went with full 4 Delver and SCM, 3 Angler and 2 Tasigur.
I'd cut either Izzet Staticaster or Engineered Explosives for the Jace. Its a solid card against a lot of grindy matches where you typically want to cut down on Twin.
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Remand
1 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Dispel
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Blood Moon
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Dispel
2 Spellskite
1 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Slay
1 Vandalblast
1 Rending Volley
R1 - CoCo Elves
G1: First hand of the night was 4 Lands, Lightning Bolt, Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin on the play. Since I knew my opponent would 90% be on Elves I snap kept. After Bolting his first Heritage Druid which was followed by another copy, was able to combo out T4 with him on 1 less mana for Chord-Spellskite.
OUT: 3 Remand, 2 Twin IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Jace, Architect of Thought, 1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, 1 Blood Moon (brain fart, please forgive me!)
G2: Opened with 2 lands (1 Fetch 1 Sulfur Falls), 2 Anger of the Gods, 2 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Cryptic Command - loose keep? Kept anyway. Game went late with me sandbagging Dispels for 3(!) Collected Company with Snap waiting for the 4th. Burrenton Forge Tender managed to stall the game as I was too greedy with Angers. Eventually fired one off after landing a Tasigur to which he sac'd it. Following turn fired off the 2nd and it was all Tasigur from there. He was eventually down to 8 with a Spellskite in play so I couldn't combo off. Jace came in and went double -2 to find Bolt and Snap to seal the deal.
1-0
R2: Burn
G1: Thinking I was playing Bloom or Twin (I knew the guy, those were what he usually played) I kept a hand of 3-4 lands, double Remand and Deceiver Exarch. Needless to say, I got
OUT: 4 Remand, 1 Crpytic Command IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Negate, 2 Spellskite
G2: Goblin Guide was the all star here. I opened with just 2 lands, both combo pieces, Terminate, Bolt and Dispel. GG found me the lands I needed before I decided to Bolt him to seal the deal with 4 or so life left.
G3: Burn deck flooded, wooooooo!! Again though, Goblin Guide FTW.
2-0
R3: RG Tron
G1: Opened with 2 Pestermite, 1 Exarch but no Twin. I managed to delay his Tron from getting online with 3 tappers until Twin finally decided to come around for the win.
IN: 1 Blood Moon, 1 Vandalblast, 1 Negate, 1 Keranos, God of Storms OUT: 2 Dispel, 2 Lightning Bolt
G2: Kept a hand with an Exarch, Remand, Serum Visions and lands. Flooded the **** out with him going T2 Spellskite T3 Tron online. I managed to stall the game drawing 4 Remands, killing off 2 Spellskite with Kommand but no combo piece with only 2 Exarch beating him. Eventually landed Emrakul, LOL.
G3: Grindy as hell. Remand was the MVP here managing to stall the game even though he went T4/5 Tron. Brain fart - landed moon with 7 lands in play but no Swamp. He managed to grind me out until he found Nature's Claim then landed Emrakul. Welp.
2-1
R4: RUG Scapeshift
G1: Was a bit grindy. Wasn't able to figure out he was Scapeshift until T4 or so when he suspended a Search for Tomorrow. Kommand went MVP here when he went top deck mode and I started bouncing dead Snaps and making him discard whatever he drew. Won with Twin after a counterwar over Scapshift and with Dispels sealing the deal.
IN: 1 Keranos, God of Storms (which was probably bad), 1 Blood Moon, 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, 2 Dispel, 1 Negate OUT: 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Terminate, 2 Pestermite, 1 Twin
G2: I opened with combo pieces and decided to keep. He managed to Echoing Truth my double Pestermite when I was going for the combo and things went downhill from there. He tried landing a Teferi which managed to drain out my counters (Dreadship Reef!) but he was in top deck mode from there. Unfortunately for me, he drew the Scapeshift...
G3: Mana drought
2-2
R5: CoCo Abzan - he conceded to me as he was 13th whilst I was 10th after R4.
9th place was sad, but a lot was learned. I need practice playing Blood Moon. I was never really a fan of the card, but I now realize how much of a necessary evil it is. Will be bumping it up to 2. Dispel was the MVP the whole tourney but I don't think going all in on 4 is such a good idea. Will probably be taking that out for the 2nd Moon. The 2nd Spellskite probably will have to go as well, it was underwhelming. I'm not sure if I missed the 2nd Cryptic. There was exactly 0 times I wished I had it instead of a Dispel but that could just have been variance. Will need to know what you guys think! Thanks.
I disagree about the Dismember though. More often than not its gonna cost you more life than Terminates.
Thoughts?
Also, is everyone still on the Blood Moon plan postboard?
Ditto. I like leaving 1 Twin in and some number of creatures of course. The deck's really good at forcing stalemates then you just win on the spot with the combo.
I took out 2 pcs of the combo (1 twin 1 exarch) to make room for 2 Thoughtscour. I might take out 1 Terminate in favor of Murderous Cut due to this change.
2 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Splinter Twin
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
2 Terminate
4 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
2 Spell Snare
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Shattering Spree
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rending Volley
1 Flash Freeze
So after a few disappointing finishes with Grixis Delver, decided to go the Twin route for now. Above is the deck list I'm going to start with. The SB is supposed to attack an open meta, as I like building my decks that way. Am not sure if dedicating all 10 slots to combo is the perfect route for Grixis so I'm starting with 8. The Thought Scours I did my best to include as a T2 Tasigur can sometimes just run away with the game.
Criticism is more than welcome!
I do not agree with how you feel with Jund. Surely, if every player could open with all 60 cards, Jund can straight away 1:1 all our threats and beat us to a pulp. But that's not how Magic works. I agree with what most people have been saying in this thread - that this deck can beat anything, but can be really unforgiving. To be able to beat Jund, you have to understand how the deck works. Delver decks in general tend to try to win through small, incremental advantages. They may have discard to strip us off our best card, but we have Probe and Visions to try and outplay them. Inquisition just doesn't fit the tempo game plan - yes discarding Decay before dropping Delver/Pyro is good, but that one black mana could have been used to drop a post-combat Tasigur instead with Spell Pierce backup for your opponent's T3 Lili. Good cards jammed together don't necessarily make a deck good. Your good cards should work together with a common goal (out-tempo your opponent) to win.
I agree on all points, especially the point about Dispel.
I agree with the point about Probes. I'm about to put back the 4th Probe simply because of the resurgence of Jund.
I've been thinking of getting Delver out of the deck, too recently. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Delver fan boy coming from a Legacy background (played RUG, URW and bURG Delver with some decent local finishes). Still, the lack of Daze and FoW to support the "protect the queen" does certainly hurt us a bit. I've noticed that even with Delvers, the deck does seem to have the ability to grind out wins unlike its Legacy counterparts. Its tempting to either have some sort of midrange creature plan post-board and side out Delver or get him out of the deck entirely.
On the other hand, Pyro feels really good right now. Going T1 Delver, eat removal, then T2 Pyro into Probe is such a huge tempo boost on the play.
I do not agree with your last statement, but I do agree that its worth trying Disrupting Shoal in the deck. The only downside I see is the fact that we'd need to replace perhaps some removal spells in favor of more blue cards to support Shoal.
I agree. Yeah, probe was the next option for me.
Yeah Distortion Strike definitely stays in against Abzan.
I guess correct me if I'm wrong guys:
Abzan: -2 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand -1 Pierce +3 Spellskite +1 Carrion Call
Grixis Delver: -4 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand +2 Spell Pierce +3 Spellskite (Are Dispels worth siding in?)
Twin: -1 Sleight of Hand -3 Probe -2 Distortion Strike +3 Spellskite +2 Dispel +1 Carrion Call (+3 Twisted Image if they play Spellskite)
Burn: -2 Distortion Strike -4 Probe -1 Sleight of Hand +3 Spellskite +2 Dispel +2 Spell Pierce
UWR: -2 Distortion Strike -4 Probe +1 Carrion Call +2 Dispel +3 Spellskite (Against Midrange I'll keep Distortion over Call)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
Creatures - 12
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
Instant - 22
4 Thought Scour
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Electrolyze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Dragon's Claw
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Kolghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
1 Shattering Spree
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Vendilion Clique
Young Pyromancer is out. Took them out in favor of more spells and another Gurmag Angler. I don't like how Deprive bounces our already painful shocklands at the moment, but I'll test it when I get them. I'd like to think my main deck is solid, but I'd love to fit 1-2 Kolaghan's Command in there somewhere.
My biggest issue is the board. Its still all over the place! I think the negotiables are Negate and Izzet Staticaster. Murderous Cut and Terminate are there for the Abzan matchup. Speaking of Abzan, what cards should I board out if I wanted Izzet Staticaster, Murderous Cut, Terminate and Engineered Explosives in?
What's our best weapon against Tron and Bloom? Want do we want to side in against those?
For Twin, I think just the 2 additional countermagic is fine, since our main's already pretty good against them IMHO.
I initially said I didn't run Blood Moon because I "didn't feel like it" but then edited it out as I couldn't find the right words to explain my stand LOL (sorry English isn't my first language!). I am planning to run it when I get it.
Monastery Swiftspear looks interesting, but yeah it would probably play better with more cantrips and burn, and it would take the place of YP most likely.
I like Rakdos Charm simply because of its flexibility. I'd probably get rid of Izzet Staticaster, Shattering Spree and even 1 Kolaghan's Command first before I touch the charm. Then again, pretty sure I have less experience with the deck than most people here at the moment.
Oh, and I'd probably add a 3rd Terminate or 3rd Gurmag Angler to the main before even thinking of adding Murderous Cut at the moment. Worth a try though.
I like the additional counters, as well as less one-offs in the main. I'm torn with Electrolyze as I feel like Forked Bolt does the job better albeit its at Sorcery speed. The SB needs a lot of work I think, especially against Burn. I feel like 4 Dragon's Claw is a must (I only own 2 at the moment though, and I hate Death's Shadow). Deathmark could replace the Terminate. I love the flexibility on Rakdos Charm! Kolaghan's Command am not really sold on in the board, I feel its better in the main but can't seem to find the slot/s for it.
Need more anti-burn tech!
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
Spells 28
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Electrolyze
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Terminate
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
Man, Bob with Anglers and Tasigur, you've got balls sir! Salute!
Anyway, would like to get your opinions on the creature base. I am currently playing below:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
I am thinking whether I am better off with YP instead of SCM? I am pretty sold on 13 creatures. Some mixes I can think of:
A.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
B.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Honestly I haven't found too much issues with running 4 SCM with the 5 Delve monsters, but I can see how it can be a pain in some games.