MTG Salvation

We have such, and the results are an exercise in the practical differences in balancing for competition and balancing for fun. Your banned list would strive to set an equal playing field. Their banned list strives to baby-proof the house where baby Timmies are growing up. Keeping the tide pods on a high shelf won't stop an adult from having a bad day if one so chooses, but it'll stop a kid from thinking its candy. That's how the current banlist works - or my impression of it. They'll never make commander unbreakable, so they don't try. Think of the children.

Every logical bone in my body agrees with your premise that casual Commander should be just fine with a social contract and house rules, and that the banned list need only pluck a handful of utterly format-breaking cards. That said, sometimes life isn't logical, and I think things are better the way they are now than they would be if I were running the show and deregulated the format into a wild west 100 card vintage with additional deck construction rules, with the caveat that players would have my permission to agree with their friends on other changes if they're playing Commander in their homes.

I've stayed pretty loyal to Ultra Pro's Satin Tower. They hold all the cards I need, and, though I don't double-sleeve, I do try and supply the tokens for cards that donate such to my opponents, as well as my own, and they hold about 42 mini dice. It's really everything I need.

Quote from shivxxx »

Wow. Banning Paradox Engine, that requires alot of setup to actually go nuts, but keeping various A+B Combos in the Format. I seriously don't get Sheldon. I think both bans are utter nonsense.

That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.

It looks like it would be good in Commander, but the lack of a "Should we ban this before it comes out?" thread at MtGCommander's forums leads me to wonder.

I never feel remorse for dismantling a subpar deck, but I always feel remorse that I wasted money on it.

Krav, the Unredeemed is definitely Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder's VIP. My deck largely consists of three broad spheres of need: card draw, mana production and life gain, in service of my overarching need for sac outlets.

I think threads like this are great arguments for building less interactive decks. Who wants a big Commander-like win by stealing all the creatures on the board and turning them back on their owners when they'll just invalidate you anyway. Build early turn combo decks so that tactical scoopers can only speed up your inevitability. I suppose I'm mostly just amazed that this topic even has two sides.

Typical concessions are perfectly fine. Tactical concessions of the trigger denying variety don't belong in any group that buys in to how Commander is currently marketed -- cutthroat groups only. If your deck hides behind the "Spirit of Commander" to stand a chance, you don't get to exploit rules loopholes to spite your table.

When I post decklists, I'm not entirely sure what I even want. I pick every card very particularly, and for a host of reasons aside from effectiveness, so I can't pretend to be particularly open to suggestions. I don't often critique other lists because I assume others are the same way.

The problem isn't that combo is a means to end the game, the problem is that, at a certain level of competition, it's very nearly the ONLY means to end the game.

In a better format, people should be able to make their decks more competitive without necessarily gravitating toward combo control. Every other format has a relatively diverse set of archetypes available at high levels of competition. But in commander, it's just a truism that competitive = combo. And that's very boring for those of us who aren't interested in playing combo.

I think the fault for this comes down to the rules. 40 life is really the primary problem. As long as there is 120 life to face down, combo will be the dominant competitive strategy by a country mile. If anything, 30 isn't far enough imo. I'd argue for 20. You still have 60 enemy life to deal with, not to mention 100 card singleton - modern-style burn isn't suddenly going to become viable. But tight, aggressive strategies might actually be able to pressure combo decks and force them to interact with them, at least in a semi-competitive scene.

Sure, some aggro decks will be obnoxiously powerful in a weaker meta - but that's already true of combo and control decks.

Extra combat steps will be a big help.


Consider Reckless Fireweaver to rack up damage with all those Treasure tokens.

Treasure Map should quickly transform into Treasure Cove, which lets you cash in some of those Treasure tokens for cards.

No additional attack step csrds to get more treasures off Lannery? Would have been the first thing I put in.

Dragonlover

The answer to this question is something which has been hashed over countless times in various ways. I just went back to a post i made a year and a half ago that got my most up votes here at MTG Salvation and feel that it is just as relevant in context.

Commander appeals to players on so many levels.

In my 13+ years of experience, I have seen patterns and stories retell themselves from all over. Many old school players started with no idea how to play, just a starter deck and a rule book they didn't understand. Countless newbies make the same mistake. I cannot tell you how often I have seen someone with a 73 card three color deck with 16 or 17 lands. They began with some theme deck, bought boosters, added cards they liked and "made room for them" by cutting lands, then continued to pack more cool stuff in until it became the dumpster fire in front of them.

I cannot tell you how many times someone has seen my Magic: the Gathering pin on my bag at work or on the street and told me how they play magic too and that they beat all their friends with their samurai deck or red burn deck... and we are not talking about an optimized sly deck. We are talking something that has Volcanic Hammer and Lava Axe or whatever some 5-15 year old burn spell is from when they started playing.

Not everyone who plays this game is a fanatic who lurks forums, reads article, watches YouTube videos and strives to improve their play. Many of them just like to play a card game with their friends.

Commander appeals to Timmy who loves to cast big creatures and finally has a format where games realistically get to turns where they can actually cast them.

Commander appeals to Vorthos, who loves to tell a story with their deck.

Commander appeal to Spike who likes to break it in half and pretend they are the biggest fish in their little bowl.

Commander appeals to Johnny, who is forced to only have one of each cards and tries to assemble their crazy combo.

Commander is where the guy who wants to use skull clamp can without it being over powered.

Commander is where someone like my wife can get a pre-con deck and build it on a budget over time and watch it grow into something all her own and be proud of it every step of the way.

To expand a little, Magic has always been a game where both cards and decks are designed to fight the inherent randomness of the game. That is why, when allowed 4x copies of a card, most cards are played with those 4 copies, and when there are fewer than 4, there is a reason/rational for it.

If I could play multiple copies of Thrumming Stone in my Atheros (Shadowborn Apostle) deck, I would. There is no other card in magic like it. Not even something similar. As a result, the deck is forced to play things like Secret Salvage and Remembrance as alternative ways of pulling copies from the library.

Even in 60 card 4x copies magic, decks regularly play redundant copies of the most important cards. Look at modern 8 Whack or other decks like 8 Post and 8 Rack. They get those names because a redundant version ofa powerful card was printed and they upped the count of said effect to its limit.

I was told a story about how the first best deck in the history of magic was back before the 4 card limit and decks were only 40 cards. The deck was about 18 Black Lotus, 18 or so Wheel of Fortune and about 4 or so Feldon's Cane. You just cast your free mana and wheel over and over again, eventually using the cane to shuffle your graveyard back into your library and kept going until your opponent lost. You won every time you went first or they passed he turn. That, I am told, is what inspired the 4x rule. Well, the next best decks just ran 4x the power 9 and mostly did the same thing along with Wheel of Fortune and Braingeyser as a finishers and still inning on turn one, or if it was passed to them. This essentially means that they needed a restricted list, else the game would stagnate.

Singleton is good for Commander and god for Magic. I cannot tell you how many LGS locations benefited from Commander and having a sudden demand for bulk cards. I know that my friends and I scoured countless boxes of cards which were once rarely touched for months or even years. Boxes were pulled out of storage, quarter and dollar rare piles were rifled through just looking for hidden gems and cards which finally found a home.

Redundant cards with a twist or higher casting cost suddenly became useful. Some cards which were unplayable jank have become staples and powerhouses. The higher life totals and longer game length resulted in turns where you can actually expect to cast something with a cmc over 4 and have it matter. Heck, 8 drops and even 12 drop cards were being cast as blow out spells. X spells were able to be cast are crazy high values you once only dreamed of, or were only able to through an infinite mana combo, now were just hard cast at 10+.

This is the format where people like to talk about how many non-infnite tokes or creatures they have had, cards they have drawn, or how much non-infinite life they have gained or damage they have done. Some of that is inspired by the deep card pool that we are FORCED to choose from rather than just playing 60x4 casual magic.

I could go on, as you can imagine. Thanks for reading this far.

Have you considered Carnival of Souls? With your pile of Blood Artists and sac outlets, I just assume it combos with Endrek Sahr.

You can dress it up by calling it "tactical," but scooping to deny value is scummy, and no amount of flowery language will ever convince me that it's a noble act. If a player casts a game-winning Insurrection and you can't stop it in-game, then that player earned the win. Shuffle up and start a new game. Like adults.

If you have a decent amount of non-Neheb mana sources, there's also something to be said for firing it off EOT before you untap. You won't dig as deep but you still get access to all of the Neheb mana on your turn and your opponents get a much smaller window to screw with your plan. Exiling a bunch of high impact cards and then letting each opponent have a turn is basically asking people to hold up answers for you.

Quote from OblivionedOne »

Anyone believe what I say now?...
People need to lighten up and enjoy this forum from now on.

i always did. You are The hero that mtgsalvation does not not deserve, but needs. A Dark Knight

Anyone believe what I say now?...
People need to lighten up and enjoy this forum from now on.

Quote from RivenVII »

I don't necessarily agree with JWK that the 75% strategy is poisonous to the format. I think there is a lot of legitimacy to building a strong deck that can have combos and such without being overwhelming.

That's not the part of 75% commander I dislike. In fact, I 100% support that aspect, and build that way myself.

What I hate about 75% commander, and do find poisonous, is the idea that you should not stop people from doing things, but should instead let them do their thing, then deal with it after the fact. That mindset is poisonous because it disregards the important role control strategies and proactive control elements (things like Rest in Peace and Stranglehold and Blood Moon) play in the game, and it's also quite frankly ridiculous when people are playing explosive stuff such as Maelstrom Wanderer. I'm very fond of the idea that Commander games should often involve big, memorable plays, but I think such plays are more memorable if you have to work for them, rather than just being the first person to draw into them.