This will probably be the list I will run in the tournament tomorrow unless I can't get 4 Avengers.
Hopefully this will clarify some things.
see, now that looks like a good, solid, fairly cheap list. good job on fine tuning it nightmaster. looks like it should do fairly decent. at the very least. let us know how you do.
how do you beat landstill then? their lands are bigger than creatures. their wrath of god wrecks you. you are depending on so much hymn and duress and praying for that ritual ;-).
yaw t8 with a deck isnt the same as winning a tourney with a deck ;-). much much different. combo's chances of winning a tourney is far far better than sui-black winning a tourney... oh wait. combo wins tourneys all the time. and landstill winning is very common.
i didn't say i can win consistantly against landstill, i said i can beat it. it's possible. and you're sort of right, i am depending on hymn and duress, and after s/b, cabal therapy.
and i agree, top 8'ing is very different. but i've won several of those w/ sui as well. granted most of them were 1.x and i haven't been able to take my sui deck to a legacy event since i've gotten back into magic this time, so i don't know how my performance will be.
and you're right, combo probably does have a better chance, if it's true combo, but it has a better chance than anything else at the tournament too. honestly, i hate combo. i like playing magic and combo, to me, isn't magic. it pisses me off to no end when i'm sitting across from my opponent while he takes a 10 minute turn that let's him 'go off.' that's not magic to me. to me, magic is dropping guys, playing spells and beating. even counter decks are magic. they annoy me, but they are supposed to. i think that whenever a combo deck emerges as a viable archtype, half the combo should be banned. but that's just me.
but back to sui for a min... i've beaten well established decks w/ this one. packing 2 maindeck and 2 s/b plagues allows me to beat goblins which is one the most popular decks in the format. that alone tells me i have a fighting chance. but not only that, but i've beaten gro/threshold. it's a pretty good matchup. i haven't been able to test the deck against landstill yet, but i will.
you know what? why am i even arguing w/ you? it's pointless.
dude this is a freaking forum. we can all input whatever we wish and talk about it the way we wish. stop telling me what to do. you definitely arent the authority on magic here.
agreed. it is a forum, but nightmaster wants help on his white weenie deck. not help building an angel stompy deck. and i never said i was the magic authority here. i'm definitely not. i'm a pretty decent player, but i'm no pro tour winner. and i've been playing since 98. off and on anyway. so i know a little bit about the game. i'm not trying to trash talk or argue w/ you, it's just that you keep recommending the jankiest stuff and i can't help but think, why would anyone - ever - run that in their build. so i'm sorry. i apologize. you recommend whatever you want, and i'll either ignore what i don't agree w/ or try to tell you why it's bad in a nice sensible manner.
naw suicide black isnt slow. it just isnt strong. been that way since 1998. sure you can drop in more 2/2's for 1 mana and go nuts with dark ritual. but you become dependent on the dark ritual and black has no removal against artifacts and/or enchantments. suicide black does poorly against threshold, landstill (your worst matchup), mono-red burn, solidarity, solitare confinement, 42-land deck...
but i think the thing is landstill was so dominant in legacy until vial goblins re-established parity that no one considered playing suicide black.
sui black isn't strong? hasn't been strong since '98? that gives me a chuckle. and i'll have you know that almost every tourney i've ever top 8'ed this was the deck i was running. especially when tempest was 1.x legal and i could rock pretty much the same list i'm running now. and if you remember correctly dark rit was banned in 1.x at that time. and i still ran this deck. it's good -- it's really good. and it doesn't rely on dark rit to compete. it's good and it helps w/ the speed factor, but it's not needed for the deck to win. you make it sound as if i don't draw a dark rit in the initial seven, i lose, and that's just bad magic playing. dark rit is awesome. dark rit, duress, hymn, gg. dark rit, negator (vs the right deck), gg. there are so many scenarios here that help. and help a lot. but suicide does not rely on dark ritual to win the game.
and landstill is not my worst matchup. goblins is. in fact anything w/ mountains and burn tends to be my worst matchup. atleast against landstill i have a fighting chance. confinement hurts me and i'm looking for ways around it in s/b. but for you to say that suicide isn't strong makes me just want to start laughing.
look i wasnt putting up a build that would 'beat' goblins or any other deck. mine build for white weenie is just plain faster especially in the mirror matchup. if you really are serious on beating goblins look to building something like angel stompy which this deck isnt.
angel stompy runs 4 silver knights and tons of weapons. just do a search for it. i was helping someone else out there build something that was 'white weenie' ie tons of little creatures and crusades and or jihad's. that deck hasnt changed since legends came out back in 1994.:rolleyes:
so if you wanna critize my build fine but just do it in the context of what you are talking about. ie the best white build that beats goblins is angel stompy (since it is more consistent on the mulligans and it has pro red AND life gain or yaw it also runs parallax WAVE!)
dude, what is your fascination w/ angel stompy? this isn't an angel stompy thread, it's a white weenie thread. two similar, yet very different decks. and you're right, white weenie as an idea hasn't changed a bit since legends came out in '94, but white weenie as a deck has changed tremendously. namely the creature base. legends didn't offer us unblockable protection guys. there are tons of creatures to be considered for white weenie. and some that you, or nightmaster for that matter, would consider that i would never in a billion years even think about running in a white weenie build. if nightmaster wasn't on such a tight budget, i'd be hounding him to add better creatures and better pump to his deck. but the way he's got it now, it seems like the best 'budget' build one could come up w/. it's cheap, it's efficient, and more importantly he can beat goblins. so please, i'm asking you nicely, stop suggesting that he take out the guys that help him compete in today's meta, and stop asking him to change his deck into a completely different archtype just because you think it's more competitive.
w/ the release of planar chaos and the introduction of a new red arrogant wurm, my friend and i are trying to test a u/g/r madness deck. so far it's done fairly well. what do you guys think?
so there it is, in all it's glory. remember it's in the testing stage right now, so there are still probably some changes to be made. help is appreciated.
hellfire, not that i like all the first strikers and jitte that you are running, but i believe that if you start taking out cards like std for carnophage or sarcomancy it changes the feel of your deck. if you do that then i think that you should re think the rest of the creatures in your deck, and maybe even rethink jitte. i, honestly, would never run the list that you're running, but i think this is your list. it's what works for you, so it's what you should run. there is no set list for sui black. i do think that if you plan on playing the deck competitively you need main deck engineered plagues and cursed scroll. (you may already be running scroll, but i'm too lazy to go back and check )
try it and you will find out why. the deck is far better with 1 drops than 2 drops. one of my friends had a deck posted the way you had it with a bunch of 2 drops. we shifted it to the 1 drop version and it runs a LOT better. way more consistent and much faster.
let me give you an example of play.
turn 1: drop out land drop lion or flier or shadow
turn 2: drop out land swing with the 1/1 flier and drop 2 more 1/1's
turn 3: drop out land drop out crusade swing for 6 and STP any threat
turn 4: drop out another crusade or an anthem and swing for 9. the game is pretty much seal at this point. most people have taken damage from fetch lands or stuff like bob etc.
this isnt even a god draw. that is the average draw.
the reason why for all of the enchantments is because of the griffen since it is a 2/3 flier for W but it needs an enchantment around. in a way it is similar to a serra avenger in that you cant drop it turn 1.
but white weenie is way more competitive with a ton of 1 drops. the only version which is better for white weenie is go for tons of equipment and run ancient tombs and go for angel stompy.
2 drops like silver knight need both equipment chrome mox and the like in hand since silver knight still gets KOed by STP.
i can't imagine ever getting a 'god draw' w/ this deck. ever. you don't even have mother of runes. which is probably top 5 best white 1-drops ever! as gremlin stated in his post, this deck will die to so much in the legacy meta. the 2-mana cost creatures are what makes white weenie the deck it is. i can't imagine building a ww deck w/o throwing priest in. that's just bad deck building to me. pro red = good.
and i think you're worrying too much about swords to plowshares. there's not a lot of creatures out there that don't die to swords. and sure, silver knight dies to swords, so do the rest of my creatures. but i'm willing to bet that i have more creatures than they have swords.
the 2 drops only need the moxen in hand to come out on first turn. which is awesome when it happens, but it's not necessary. the moxen are there for speed purposes only.
and nightmaster, ornithopter does not belong in white weenie. you may have equipment to throw on him, my in my opinion white weenie's creatures need to be beaters on their own w/o the equipment. and i'm glad you've decided to get avengers over jitte. jitte is good, but i think the avengers make you deck more competitive. it probably wouldn't hurt to add jitte later. and i'm glad the avenger's are working out for you.
i don't see a need to reduce all of the creature casting costs down to W. that's just not necessary and you miss out on so many better creatures that have a cc of WW or more. soltari priest and silver knight are pretty have to have guys in today's goblin ran meta. and i really don't see the point in running 4 crusade and 3 glorious anthem. in a deck like this one, i'd say one or the other. not both. the other slot could be better filled by some sort of white disruption. like maybe swords or seal of cleansing. both of these are pretty much auto includes as well. especially swords.
i think for the first time ever, i agree w/ topdeck. although the pump knights are good, in today's environment they are just too mana intensive. and i still think that, although edict isn't that great vs ichorid, it's still one of the best black removal spells.
Wait, you mean stack Braids first so that Flows effect resolves first, right?
1) Put braids ability on the stack
2) Put flows ability on the stack
3) Flows ability resolves requiring a non-basic land to be sac'd
4) Braids ability resolves requiring something else to be sac'd
Is this correct? I have a very good understanding of using the stack and how it works. I just want to make sure that I don't make any mistakes.
that would be correct, sir. the stack is first in, last out. so stacking the effects the way you stated would require them to sac the nonbasic to the flow and then something else to braids.
Ichorid in its own sense isn't a problem. Its the variant of ichorid that has the giant sutured ghoul that is a problem. Riot spikes is all good. But so far I havn't seen any problems with anything with a thoughness of 1. Most of my problems arise from creatures that can't be targetted (troll to name one) and things with pro-black. The edicts stay. On a side note I have been looking into things to possible replace the STD's. Sorry to say that the only thing i've come across has been Knight of stromgald and its hardly been tested. I've tested it against some friends but it seems about the same as the STD with the lost benefit of being a 1 drop.
The original intention of the STD was for him to deal damage and get counters on jitte thus letting you pump up another creature before combat damage was dealt. That was and still is his sole purpose in life.
Edit: I think I should break my deck off into a seperate thread, I'm confusing people.
nah, you're cool, man. i don't see a need to break off, unless you really want to. i definitely think there are better creatures to throw a jitte on than knight of stromgald. i like him, he's pretty decent, but there are just better creatures out there. if i were gonna test knight of stromgald, i'd give stromgald crusader a chance as well. i think he's a bit better because of his ability to gain flying and be unblocked. but they're both pretty mana intensive. if either of them come out on turn 2, odds are they aren't getting any pumps or better abilities for atleast a couple more turns. but testing is the only way to really know how good something is in your deck.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Mother of Runes and Beloved Chaplain go together like a fish and a hair dryer? Is there really a question on Chaplain or Serra Avenger?
that's kinda why i don't like him. he may be unblockable, but he's tiny. his 1/1 body is too small, imo, for white weenie. mother of runes may be only 1/1 as well, but she's a much more efficient creature. i think staying mono white you need her. but i just think that the chaplain would be the best creature to remove in favor of the angel.
steel reserve isn't that bad if you're broke and wanna get drunk. it's cheap, it's got a fairly high alcohol perentage and it's not that bad. my personal favorite is coors light. but i can drink a lot of different varieties if need be. w/ a good meal, i like a nice cold kilian's irish red. now that's good stuff. but not to get drunk on. dark beer isn't that high on my list of preferred drinks, but kilian's is decent. i also like the occasional corona or miller lite. and i'm also of the opinion that bud light is the 'every beer.' it's the beer i buy if i'm supplying beer for a party or something. it's a beer that *almost* everyone can agree on. but for the most part, i just stick to drinkin good ol' coors light.
calibretto
see, now that looks like a good, solid, fairly cheap list. good job on fine tuning it nightmaster. looks like it should do fairly decent. at the very least. let us know how you do.
calibretto
i didn't say i can win consistantly against landstill, i said i can beat it. it's possible. and you're sort of right, i am depending on hymn and duress, and after s/b, cabal therapy.
and i agree, top 8'ing is very different. but i've won several of those w/ sui as well. granted most of them were 1.x and i haven't been able to take my sui deck to a legacy event since i've gotten back into magic this time, so i don't know how my performance will be.
and you're right, combo probably does have a better chance, if it's true combo, but it has a better chance than anything else at the tournament too. honestly, i hate combo. i like playing magic and combo, to me, isn't magic. it pisses me off to no end when i'm sitting across from my opponent while he takes a 10 minute turn that let's him 'go off.' that's not magic to me. to me, magic is dropping guys, playing spells and beating. even counter decks are magic. they annoy me, but they are supposed to. i think that whenever a combo deck emerges as a viable archtype, half the combo should be banned. but that's just me.
but back to sui for a min... i've beaten well established decks w/ this one. packing 2 maindeck and 2 s/b plagues allows me to beat goblins which is one the most popular decks in the format. that alone tells me i have a fighting chance. but not only that, but i've beaten gro/threshold. it's a pretty good matchup. i haven't been able to test the deck against landstill yet, but i will.
you know what? why am i even arguing w/ you? it's pointless.
calibretto
agreed. it is a forum, but nightmaster wants help on his white weenie deck. not help building an angel stompy deck. and i never said i was the magic authority here. i'm definitely not. i'm a pretty decent player, but i'm no pro tour winner. and i've been playing since 98. off and on anyway. so i know a little bit about the game. i'm not trying to trash talk or argue w/ you, it's just that you keep recommending the jankiest stuff and i can't help but think, why would anyone - ever - run that in their build. so i'm sorry. i apologize. you recommend whatever you want, and i'll either ignore what i don't agree w/ or try to tell you why it's bad in a nice sensible manner.
calibretto
sui black isn't strong? hasn't been strong since '98? that gives me a chuckle. and i'll have you know that almost every tourney i've ever top 8'ed this was the deck i was running. especially when tempest was 1.x legal and i could rock pretty much the same list i'm running now. and if you remember correctly dark rit was banned in 1.x at that time. and i still ran this deck. it's good -- it's really good. and it doesn't rely on dark rit to compete. it's good and it helps w/ the speed factor, but it's not needed for the deck to win. you make it sound as if i don't draw a dark rit in the initial seven, i lose, and that's just bad magic playing. dark rit is awesome. dark rit, duress, hymn, gg. dark rit, negator (vs the right deck), gg. there are so many scenarios here that help. and help a lot. but suicide does not rely on dark ritual to win the game.
and landstill is not my worst matchup. goblins is. in fact anything w/ mountains and burn tends to be my worst matchup. atleast against landstill i have a fighting chance. confinement hurts me and i'm looking for ways around it in s/b. but for you to say that suicide isn't strong makes me just want to start laughing.
calibretto
dude, what is your fascination w/ angel stompy? this isn't an angel stompy thread, it's a white weenie thread. two similar, yet very different decks. and you're right, white weenie as an idea hasn't changed a bit since legends came out in '94, but white weenie as a deck has changed tremendously. namely the creature base. legends didn't offer us unblockable protection guys. there are tons of creatures to be considered for white weenie. and some that you, or nightmaster for that matter, would consider that i would never in a billion years even think about running in a white weenie build. if nightmaster wasn't on such a tight budget, i'd be hounding him to add better creatures and better pump to his deck. but the way he's got it now, it seems like the best 'budget' build one could come up w/. it's cheap, it's efficient, and more importantly he can beat goblins. so please, i'm asking you nicely, stop suggesting that he take out the guys that help him compete in today's meta, and stop asking him to change his deck into a completely different archtype just because you think it's more competitive.
calibretto
4 wild mongrel
4 basking rootwalla
3 arrogant wurm
3 reckless wurm
4 magus of the bazaar
3 aquamoeba
1 wonder
1 anger
4 circular logic
3 fiery temper
4 careful study
3 deep analysis
2 gifts ungiven
2 umezawa's jitte
//land
2 wooded foothill
4 polluted delta
4 breeding pool
4 steam vents
2 stomping ground
1 mountain
1 forest
2 island
so there it is, in all it's glory. remember it's in the testing stage right now, so there are still probably some changes to be made. help is appreciated.
calibretto
calibretto
i can't imagine ever getting a 'god draw' w/ this deck. ever. you don't even have mother of runes. which is probably top 5 best white 1-drops ever! as gremlin stated in his post, this deck will die to so much in the legacy meta. the 2-mana cost creatures are what makes white weenie the deck it is. i can't imagine building a ww deck w/o throwing priest in. that's just bad deck building to me. pro red = good.
and i think you're worrying too much about swords to plowshares. there's not a lot of creatures out there that don't die to swords. and sure, silver knight dies to swords, so do the rest of my creatures. but i'm willing to bet that i have more creatures than they have swords.
the 2 drops only need the moxen in hand to come out on first turn. which is awesome when it happens, but it's not necessary. the moxen are there for speed purposes only.
and nightmaster, ornithopter does not belong in white weenie. you may have equipment to throw on him, my in my opinion white weenie's creatures need to be beaters on their own w/o the equipment. and i'm glad you've decided to get avengers over jitte. jitte is good, but i think the avengers make you deck more competitive. it probably wouldn't hurt to add jitte later. and i'm glad the avenger's are working out for you.
calibretto
i don't see a need to reduce all of the creature casting costs down to W. that's just not necessary and you miss out on so many better creatures that have a cc of WW or more. soltari priest and silver knight are pretty have to have guys in today's goblin ran meta. and i really don't see the point in running 4 crusade and 3 glorious anthem. in a deck like this one, i'd say one or the other. not both. the other slot could be better filled by some sort of white disruption. like maybe swords or seal of cleansing. both of these are pretty much auto includes as well. especially swords.
calibretto
calibretto
that would be correct, sir. the stack is first in, last out. so stacking the effects the way you stated would require them to sac the nonbasic to the flow and then something else to braids.
calibretto
nah, you're cool, man. i don't see a need to break off, unless you really want to. i definitely think there are better creatures to throw a jitte on than knight of stromgald. i like him, he's pretty decent, but there are just better creatures out there. if i were gonna test knight of stromgald, i'd give stromgald crusader a chance as well. i think he's a bit better because of his ability to gain flying and be unblocked. but they're both pretty mana intensive. if either of them come out on turn 2, odds are they aren't getting any pumps or better abilities for atleast a couple more turns. but testing is the only way to really know how good something is in your deck.
calibretto
that's kinda why i don't like him. he may be unblockable, but he's tiny. his 1/1 body is too small, imo, for white weenie. mother of runes may be only 1/1 as well, but she's a much more efficient creature. i think staying mono white you need her. but i just think that the chaplain would be the best creature to remove in favor of the angel.
calibretto
calibretto