I've been testing Expedite. Too often I have two nice DS with a Tas and have to wait to attack. Often one or two of them get eaten before I get out of summoning sickness. Temur Battle a Rage seems to be a win more, rather than win now. I think TBR is best main decked, to steal a win, as I find I really want solutions coming out of the sideboard. Card draw is never useless. I've also been in and out with Censor in a flex spot. I like its choices.
I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
Good thoughts, yes. With this deck having, often, larger than 3 strength creatures on the board, perhaps there's a better argument now against Damnation. But we can also re establish presence quickly. When I'm ready to use damnation, it's frequently not turn 4, but T5 or 6. So damnation, DS, Tasigur, go. Often that's it with a cleared board.
Pyroclasm is best where there is a lot of aggro and swarms where players go wide quickly, and AoG was at its peak value when Abzan Company was Tier 1 where exiling Finks etc was more prominent. Maybe it's my meta, buy there are lots of 4+ strength creatures to deal with these days. With Tas and DS on the board, against decks with lots of 2/3 strength creatures, I usually don't worry about a sweeper. But I keep an Engineered Explosives and Izzet Staticaster for smaller nuisances.
I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Driven/Despair is not a good card for this deck. You're looking at a turn 4+ card that requires a green splash. You might as well play Painful Truths by that point and draw 3 cards regardless of whether you attack (again depending on the board state, not always possible) and be able to cast it on curve. How often do we lose because we didn't have enough card advantage? We lose because we get out'tempoed (either too slow or not enough disruptions) or because we have weaker inevitability (e.g Tron).
Gavony Township is much worse without diluting the manabase around GW (look at Matt Nass's build) or using the typical unstable Abzan midrange mana base. In my experience, this deck often struggles to get to 5 mana which is why I don't even like playing more than 1 Vault of the Archangel. If you add this requirement on top of the fact that you need a green source on the field, it's pretty obvious why this card doesn't belong in traditional token builds.
Eh, kind of what I felt too. If I was to build with green, it would not be because of Driven // Despair. It feels like a winmoar card and does nothing if we are behind. Plus even if you can discard a few card withit, your opponent is always gonna keep the good stuff.
In fact I'm currently testing with the green splash and find Abrupt decay to be quite fantastic. Voice of resurgence is also pretty good and doesn't go against the deck's "Don't turn removal on" attitude. Also, I agree that Gavony township is not that great, and I never played more than one Vault of the archangel either. Plus it's another colorless source when I'm trying to go for a third color. Probably gonna cut gavony altogether.
With that being said, I'm probably gonna try this list next Tuesday and see what happens.
Any noteworthy green cards I should consider for the sideboard? Nothing really strikes at me in green for sideboard.
Without any real Treefolk, how is Murmuring Bosk any good, or better than say filter lands like Fetid Heath if you need the BW option? BTW not sure why it's saying that's my deck....
Hello, I am looking for any suggestions/tweaks on my deck but especially the manabase. I was thinking of taking out 1 Overgrown Tomb for 1 Marsh Flats.
Creatures 31:
4 Bird of Paradise
3 Noble Heirarchs
2 Wall of Roots
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Viscera Seer
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Anafenza, The Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Quasali Pridemage
This deck list will get you some wins,but it's an older build that had dropped us down to T3. Newer cards have brought us back to T2, I think because people are prepared for old Abzan CoCo, but not for newer spice. Not that the spice has proven better long term yet. Manabase is fine, although I prefer 22 lands, with 3x Gavony and 2x Horizon Canopy. Melira and Roots are gone from New builds, and Anafenza and Seer are 1x if present. Redcap is gone in new brews.
Fulmi in this deck seems a waste of a turn. Who cares about a manland , ramp, or Tron. Do enough self harm and have a couple DS online by turn 3, we can outrace them. Particularly with a TBR on whatever gets through. I'd rather do T3 delve than Fulmi. And T4, Fulmi won't help much, unless you have Surgical in hand too.
I think Walking Ballista over Bloodrite Invoked The +x/+x counters are serious. Yes, you miss with Coco or Chord. Bloodrite Invoker is a glorified Blood Artist, which hasn't been good. The strength of 1 is too easy to deal with, despite the reach IMO.
Not only not hitting it off CoCo, but the difficulty of cording for it as well. Even if it is a powerful card. Plus wed be hoping to discard one of our 3CMC to hopefully get Mind bender fast enough. Sculler is fine.
In the Grixis Delver thread, a Eldrazi Tron player stopped in. Gave some hints at what to do and what not to do. Said destroying land is kind of futile. Fulminator by itself isn't a great creature, and doesn't advance board state sufficiently because it only sets them back a turn, and is too. Better off disrupting searches or discard. Maybe mind censor should be SB.
Not sure what this was exactly. A number of cards I don't really see, but going for infinite creatures with about a 3-4 card combo. Teenager. I don't even get to sideboard. I infinite both games.
Round 2: Merfolk 2-1
First round he has plenty of Merfolk and Spreading Seas my Canopy for lethal. I put in Path, Decay, and Spellskite. Take out Voices, Ralliers. I overwhelm with Township and bolsters G2, and infinite Scrye/Life/Bolster G3.
Round 3: Eldrazi Tron 0-2
I just can't get a good CoCo to save my life, and he gets Tron online both games. Really feeling I need some Land Destro. Way back in Eldrazi Winter, I did the heavier black list with Dark Confidant, Baby Lily, Fulminators (for recursion). May want to go back to that. It was quite good against big mana at the time.
Round 4: Jund 1-2
Again, my CoCos wiff, and game 3 his Scooze gets huge. I did infinite the 2nd game. His man lands hurt me, and Goyf I just don't deal with well even with SB path and decay.
I'm really with the "when rallier works it really works" and Saffi has value. Voice for the second week in a row is just meh. I never get useful Elementals. Yes, they tend to suck up the targeted removal, but I feel it's just better against a control heavy meta. The meta is not control friendly. So feel I need 3 Scullers instead of Sin Collectors, need a Fiend Hunter main (Flickerwisp was okay, but I wish I had Fiend Hunter too) and until Tron gets enough heat, 2 Surgical Extraction and 3 Fulminators in SB. Put Spellskite and Scooze in the MD. Drop Saffi, Rallier, and go up to 2 or 3 Witness.
I am on Mardu colors myself. I do have a UW control deck, but I feel going half control/half martyr is iffy. And while control is in a better place in the current meta, it's not Tier 1 destined. Usually with Martyr, sticking around isn't a problem, it's finishing off the opponent before they stabilize. So helix and boros charm are helpful. What I have done a couple times is be at 27-29 life on my end of turn with an Ascendant played (or even less with a Martyr OTB). Helix to their face as they attack with Goyf or something, block with Ascendant. On my turn Boros Charm. 12 damage with Serra. For example. I find I want to play faster, not slower with Martyr Life. When the game goes long I find I just don't have enough juice or offense to win, unless I manage to ult Nahiri. Which is actually more possible with Boros Charm. Incidentally, lack of offense is often my problem with UW control too. Eventually you can't answer everything and you are hoping for Cryptic Command getting your Collonades and Gideon Jura through.
Not rude at all falchion, that's a good point I didn't think of haha. Well I went 3-2 and had a good time, that's all that counts and two of those wins were having zulaport on board and getting to sac the board to drain them dead! Thanks for the advice though, if I ever fire this deck up again I'll look to get the more standard build together first.
Sometimes we overlook the fun factor! Gratz on your results!
We used to have discard main a ways back, but decided to keep the pressure and tempo, and to leave mana open and play on their turn as much as possible.. IoK tended to be the goto given the pain of our mana base and lack of life gain to recoup (I keep 1x Vampiric Link SB). With more combo, perhaps 2x discard in the 75 is worth considering. But not 4x. Agree you need at least 3x Scour.
Good thoughts, yes. With this deck having, often, larger than 3 strength creatures on the board, perhaps there's a better argument now against Damnation. But we can also re establish presence quickly. When I'm ready to use damnation, it's frequently not turn 4, but T5 or 6. So damnation, DS, Tasigur, go. Often that's it with a cleared board.
Pyroclasm is best where there is a lot of aggro and swarms where players go wide quickly, and AoG was at its peak value when Abzan Company was Tier 1 where exiling Finks etc was more prominent. Maybe it's my meta, buy there are lots of 4+ strength creatures to deal with these days. With Tas and DS on the board, against decks with lots of 2/3 strength creatures, I usually don't worry about a sweeper. But I keep an Engineered Explosives and Izzet Staticaster for smaller nuisances.
Without any real Treefolk, how is Murmuring Bosk any good, or better than say filter lands like Fetid Heath if you need the BW option? BTW not sure why it's saying that's my deck....
This deck list will get you some wins,but it's an older build that had dropped us down to T3. Newer cards have brought us back to T2, I think because people are prepared for old Abzan CoCo, but not for newer spice. Not that the spice has proven better long term yet. Manabase is fine, although I prefer 22 lands, with 3x Gavony and 2x Horizon Canopy. Melira and Roots are gone from New builds, and Anafenza and Seer are 1x if present. Redcap is gone in new brews.
The answer is if you can play anything else or Eidolon, play Eidolon. So much pressure.
In the Grixis Delver thread, a Eldrazi Tron player stopped in. Gave some hints at what to do and what not to do. Said destroying land is kind of futile. Fulminator by itself isn't a great creature, and doesn't advance board state sufficiently because it only sets them back a turn, and is too. Better off disrupting searches or discard. Maybe mind censor should be SB.
Used the following list:
2 Forest
3 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Spells
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Creatures
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Saffi Ericksdotter
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Viscera Seer
2 Wall of Roots
1 Flickerwisp
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Spellskite
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Anafenza The Foremost
1 Selfless Spirit
Round 1: Mashup GW Combo 2-0
Not sure what this was exactly. A number of cards I don't really see, but going for infinite creatures with about a 3-4 card combo. Teenager. I don't even get to sideboard. I infinite both games.
Round 2: Merfolk 2-1
First round he has plenty of Merfolk and Spreading Seas my Canopy for lethal. I put in Path, Decay, and Spellskite. Take out Voices, Ralliers. I overwhelm with Township and bolsters G2, and infinite Scrye/Life/Bolster G3.
Round 3: Eldrazi Tron 0-2
I just can't get a good CoCo to save my life, and he gets Tron online both games. Really feeling I need some Land Destro. Way back in Eldrazi Winter, I did the heavier black list with Dark Confidant, Baby Lily, Fulminators (for recursion). May want to go back to that. It was quite good against big mana at the time.
Round 4: Jund 1-2
Again, my CoCos wiff, and game 3 his Scooze gets huge. I did infinite the 2nd game. His man lands hurt me, and Goyf I just don't deal with well even with SB path and decay.
I'm really with the "when rallier works it really works" and Saffi has value. Voice for the second week in a row is just meh. I never get useful Elementals. Yes, they tend to suck up the targeted removal, but I feel it's just better against a control heavy meta. The meta is not control friendly. So feel I need 3 Scullers instead of Sin Collectors, need a Fiend Hunter main (Flickerwisp was okay, but I wish I had Fiend Hunter too) and until Tron gets enough heat, 2 Surgical Extraction and 3 Fulminators in SB. Put Spellskite and Scooze in the MD. Drop Saffi, Rallier, and go up to 2 or 3 Witness.
But things like:
Wear//Tear
Destructive Revelry
Atarkas Command
Boros Charm
Dragonlord Dromoka
Dromoka's Command
I am on Mardu colors myself. I do have a UW control deck, but I feel going half control/half martyr is iffy. And while control is in a better place in the current meta, it's not Tier 1 destined. Usually with Martyr, sticking around isn't a problem, it's finishing off the opponent before they stabilize. So helix and boros charm are helpful. What I have done a couple times is be at 27-29 life on my end of turn with an Ascendant played (or even less with a Martyr OTB). Helix to their face as they attack with Goyf or something, block with Ascendant. On my turn Boros Charm. 12 damage with Serra. For example. I find I want to play faster, not slower with Martyr Life. When the game goes long I find I just don't have enough juice or offense to win, unless I manage to ult Nahiri. Which is actually more possible with Boros Charm. Incidentally, lack of offense is often my problem with UW control too. Eventually you can't answer everything and you are hoping for Cryptic Command getting your Collonades and Gideon Jura through.
Sometimes we overlook the fun factor! Gratz on your results!