One ofs like K-Command are a waste of space. Most cards need to have dredge, flashback, scavenge, or something. So many will go the graveyard. I love K Command in my Grixis Twin or Mardu Dragons, but it doesn't belong in Dredgevine. Most of the time you'll never be able to use K Command, or one of AD because they get milled. Two of if necessary, and mulligan to have one. Delve cards are also bad, like murderous cut unless you exile your fetches or something.
Dredgevine is not a delver deck, despite the interaction with our yard. Use something like Stinkwood Imp to deal with creatures, or Golgari Charm or Darkblast. Those two are our creature control. You really want to stay away from Delve cards because they will stress out your graveyard which is where you want your cards. It's like your hand.
Vexing Devil doesn't belong. You need to be fueling your graveyard aggressively to bring back key creatures, get dredge going, and have options turn one, namely Faithless Looting, Wayfinder, then Grisly Salvage. Then get your creatures coming out of your yard and dredge like crazy. Mulligan aggressively to ideally have some of your key spells and RG ready to go. Looking at Vexing Devil and Vengevine you go "wow, R vs 2GG ... both 4/3." Vexing is cheap! But in this deck, you should rarely hardcast Vengevine, and can haste him T3 if you fuel your graveyard, dredge, and get him in there with a couple something else's.
I think Dredgevine is sitting down in developing competitive both because we need a little love ala Collected Company power, and people are trying to make it do too many things and water down its core mechanic: fuel the graveyard for options and recursion.
MTGO is a good general tester, but the meta is very different because people spend more on key paper cards, but not as much MTGO. So sometimes it's a bit of an illusion how well a deck is doing. For example Soul Sisters. Great on MTGO. No where close to the record in paper.
I've had several games where things are at a stalemate, or standstill. Where I've had the 7 mana on their turn and responded to some sort of pyroclasm or wrath with an instant Raise the Alarm in response ... either of the three you mention would help.
Hadn't thought about Rootborn Defenses. Perhaps that's better than Gideon's, although the 4x 2/2 vigilance tokens isn't bad. How many tokens do we typically have on board to populate? Seems never more than a few 1/1s (plus anthems). But, I'm going to pick up some of those and playtest them.
But in these sorts of midrange situations, I've also been topdecking with nothing in BW Tokens to help. The timely card draw certainly would help beyond simply saving the creatures?
Milling continuously for 1 mana to cast also kills a lot of combo. Playing Grixis Tasigur Twin myself, I took out the Thought Scour because I mainly used them to fuel delve, but hated seeing my Splinter Twin go to the graveyard.
Seems he likes to play some bluffing, so Misty Rainforest could hint Tarmo Twin? Dunno. I agree with Bloodstained Mire, Scalding Tarn, and Polluted Delta being the fetches.
I find Thought Scour having Dredgevine in the house and playing Grixis Delver to be good for targeting library to enable delve and Snappy. More than milling the opponent. But milling my own Twin would suck. So Thought Scour may not be good here.
More I reflect, the more I like my earlier decklist. But put in Snare, Electrolyze, Lavamancer, Cut/Terminate. I get his argument for Dismember, you really only need one of any mama free (plus pain but that can be worth it early game against Goyf or whatnot). But is it the right card for this deck or in the way?
Spell snare is on its way, just wont be here today. Here's an article that guided my initial thoughts. Indeed, this isn't intended as a pure UR Twin. I was actually playing Grixis Delver before reading this article, then bought the Twins and Kiki et al: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/grixis-twin/
As this is the Grixis Tasigur Twin thread not UR Twin or Grixis Delver threads which are elsewhere. The idea is you get round 1 as twin is effective, just have to combo off, but after they sideboard their Twin plan you drop twin to a one of and play a different game, stealing round 2. Threat is still there. There's a lot of UR Twin hate out there, and Grixis Delver while still being tuned is still only Tier 2. But the two games may be able to work together?
I was advised earlier to MD the discard, but not so sure, so that second deck does not of coursework like a twin shell. Of course.
Also thinking I may have too many non creature spells, particularly with 2 of both Path and AD. Probably go back to 3 Chord though, and bring in Mirror Entity and Fiend Hunter. Reflecting on the discussion a couple pages back. Hmmmm....
I'm not sure that Blood Artist is the best creature, give you that, but I find myself in most games getting him down, and poking a bit and gaining some life. 2 of him has been better than 1. I think he's better than Cartel. With CoCo he hits the board.
I find Redcap, as a one of--and I'm not convinced to play more--doesn't usually get found or hit the board. I seem not to make it far enough into midrange that I can Chord him with spare mana, and often send him back to the bottom of the library because he can't hit the board from CoCo. He's perfect when you focus on the combo, but CoCo isn't solely about combo.
I've been playing and tweaking this for a while. Less discard, more discard, more token generators, more planeswalkers. I used to keep a one of Entreat the Angels or something, but it rarely went off or the timing of its miracle cost was bad. Looking at Origins I'm thinking that Dark Dabbling and Gideon's Phalanx may just be helpful. Rarely will the spell mastery not be in place, and I can see plenty of times my tokens would have been cleared off that these two could save them. With all the manlands around, I'm upping my T-edge and GQ, and with wipers like Anger of the Gods I feel the extra anthem may help. I saw it mentioned earlier, and it seemed meh, but the more I think about how to break up combo and things like Abzan Company, Altar of the Brood SB seems rather cheap and sensible. With all the tokens we make, that's a lot of cards going to their graveyard.
Thinking about some of the advice, looking at these adjustments. More discard maindeck, less cantrips/dispel. Adding the Grim Lavamancer as he either sucks up a removal, or does some nice damage MB if timed right. I know the Pyroclasm vs. Anger of the Gods is a little more than a toss up, but that one extra red mana is dangerous when I want to keep mana free for responses to combo etc. Plus Pyroclasm plays better with Snappy, often getting 4 damage out on creatures in a turn. On the other hands things like Kitchen Finks being exiled is serious. I may pull them out of my Mardu deck after I flip a coin.
Going to try this at a PPTQ tomorrow. I was playing Grixis Delver, but it had some slight issues such as not having that big turn 4 threat of comboing off. Young Pyromancer also seems to have his issues in my current meta. As for Twin, however, after SB, people in the meta are pretty adept at Twin hate. So leaving in 1 Twin and pulling in the Tasigurs and whatnot makes game 2 quite different and usually ruins much of what they boarded in. They also play more cautiously and are usually surprised to see Tasigur. So we'll see. I do have a Spell Snare and a couple Sulfur Falls coming, but they won't be here in time. Not sure what that will do to the lands, or which instant I may pull out. Perhaps just 1x Thought Scour to add the the Snare? In my meta there are enough reasons to MB Dismember
I've hear the argument for and against Murderous Redcap. It's of course a good closer, but a little more challenging to tutor for it. I found an extra Blood Artist and some sideboard for Twin decks such as Guttural Response or Golgari Charm or Dromoka's Command have saved me a couple times. Here's the deck I may try at a PPTQ tomorrow ... either this one or a Grixis Tasigur Twin deck.
Dredgevine is not a delver deck, despite the interaction with our yard. Use something like Stinkwood Imp to deal with creatures, or Golgari Charm or Darkblast. Those two are our creature control. You really want to stay away from Delve cards because they will stress out your graveyard which is where you want your cards. It's like your hand.
Vexing Devil doesn't belong. You need to be fueling your graveyard aggressively to bring back key creatures, get dredge going, and have options turn one, namely Faithless Looting, Wayfinder, then Grisly Salvage. Then get your creatures coming out of your yard and dredge like crazy. Mulligan aggressively to ideally have some of your key spells and RG ready to go. Looking at Vexing Devil and Vengevine you go "wow, R vs 2GG ... both 4/3." Vexing is cheap! But in this deck, you should rarely hardcast Vengevine, and can haste him T3 if you fuel your graveyard, dredge, and get him in there with a couple something else's.
I think Dredgevine is sitting down in developing competitive both because we need a little love ala Collected Company power, and people are trying to make it do too many things and water down its core mechanic: fuel the graveyard for options and recursion.
Hadn't thought about Rootborn Defenses. Perhaps that's better than Gideon's, although the 4x 2/2 vigilance tokens isn't bad. How many tokens do we typically have on board to populate? Seems never more than a few 1/1s (plus anthems). But, I'm going to pick up some of those and playtest them.
But in these sorts of midrange situations, I've also been topdecking with nothing in BW Tokens to help. The timely card draw certainly would help beyond simply saving the creatures?
Milling continuously for 1 mana to cast also kills a lot of combo. Playing Grixis Tasigur Twin myself, I took out the Thought Scour because I mainly used them to fuel delve, but hated seeing my Splinter Twin go to the graveyard.
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Spells
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Splinter Twin
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Pyroclasm
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Spellskite
1 Izzet Charm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grim Lavamancer
I find Thought Scour having Dredgevine in the house and playing Grixis Delver to be good for targeting library to enable delve and Snappy. More than milling the opponent. But milling my own Twin would suck. So Thought Scour may not be good here.
More I reflect, the more I like my earlier decklist. But put in Snare, Electrolyze, Lavamancer, Cut/Terminate. I get his argument for Dismember, you really only need one of any mama free (plus pain but that can be worth it early game against Goyf or whatnot). But is it the right card for this deck or in the way?
As this is the Grixis Tasigur Twin thread not UR Twin or Grixis Delver threads which are elsewhere. The idea is you get round 1 as twin is effective, just have to combo off, but after they sideboard their Twin plan you drop twin to a one of and play a different game, stealing round 2. Threat is still there. There's a lot of UR Twin hate out there, and Grixis Delver while still being tuned is still only Tier 2. But the two games may be able to work together?
I was advised earlier to MD the discard, but not so sure, so that second deck does not of coursework like a twin shell. Of course.
I find Redcap, as a one of--and I'm not convinced to play more--doesn't usually get found or hit the board. I seem not to make it far enough into midrange that I can Chord him with spare mana, and often send him back to the bottom of the library because he can't hit the board from CoCo. He's perfect when you focus on the combo, but CoCo isn't solely about combo.
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Windbrisk Heights
Planeswalker
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Dark Dabbling
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dismember
1 Gideon's Phalanx
1 Honor of the Pure
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Stony Silence
1 Secure the Wastes
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sundering Growth
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Altar of the Brood
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Spells
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
1 Dispel
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
4 Splinter Twin
1 Thought Scour
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dispel
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Pyroclasm
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Spellskite
1 Redirect
1 Remand
1 Dismember
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Spells
1 Cryptic Command
2 Dismember
2 Dispel
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Pierce
4 Splinter Twin
2 Thought Scour
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Pyroclasm
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Spellskite
1 Redirect
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Spells (10)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Path to Exile
Mana Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Wall of Roots
Combo Piece Creatures
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Viscera Seer
2 Blood Artist
As Needed Creatures
1 Cartel Aristocrat
2 Eternal Witness
2 Flickerwisp
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Guttural Response
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Golgari Charm
2 Celestial Purge
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Qasali Pridemage