4 Ugin: This is the big one. Ugin is a bomb; he's like a Karn that costs 8 mana, albeit being slightly different. We would definitely run 8 Karns at the cost of the latter 4 costing 8 mana, so why don't we? I still think O-Stone's likely better, but again this is in addition to, and not in lieu of those cards.
I think I'm going to report your account as hacked to the moderators.
I know, I can't believe I'm saying it myself. But I've just been so unimpressed with Pyroclasm in this metagame. Unless you feel like you're specifically going to be facing against Affinity on a given day, it just feels so insufficient. The only creature not run by Affinity that Pyroclasm hits is Dark Confidant, or an unboosted merfolk lord (unlikely in that matchup). Nobody runs mana dorks, nobody runs creatures in Zoo with less than 3 toughness. It hits Snapcaster Mages, but if I'm playing Pyroclasm to sweep the board of Snapcaster Mage, it's not exactly where I want to be.
In all of the above matchups (except perhaps Affinity), Spellskite is better, especially when you can back it up with 1 of 8 planeswalkers in 1-2 turns.
Ugin's a lot worse than Karn, and a lot worse than Oblivion Stone. But he's simultaneously a lot better than Pyroclasm in 75-80% of our matchups.
I used to see opening hands with Pyroclasm and go "Great, I can't wait to blow my opponent out on turn 2!" Nowadays when I see Pyroclasm, my immediate response is "I can't wait to board this out in Game 2 - let's see what the rest of this hand looks like." And if it's gotten to that point, I'd much rather see Spellskite, which I find myself sideboarding in in 70% of our matchups instead of sideboarding out. If our goal is still for our MD to give us the maximum power against the maximum amount of the metagame, we don't want to be playing to the Affinities - we want to be playing to all of our MUs. And even if Affinity's one of our worse MUs, so is Twin (where Spellskite is a lot better than Pyroclasm, and even Ugin is slightly better), Burn (where Pyroclasm is dead against even Monastery Swiftspear), Bogles (where Spellskite is again a lot better than Pyroclasm), Scapeshift (where Pyroclasm is useless), and the mirror (where Pyroclasm is also useless).
I even like it more against BGx. Sure, Dark Confidant is a great source of card advantage. But it's not going to be swinging through a Spellskite, and their spells don't matter if we buy the time we need to get to our endgame.
Maybe Sundering Titan would be better in Ugin's spot (though I've honestly liked Ugin a lot better)? Maybe cycling Relics is a lot better than I give them credit for? Either way, I've been so unimpressed by Pyroclasm that I'm officially moving it to the SB - where I can bring it in for the matchups it shines in, instead of just having dead cards in my MD.
I've been playing tron for a long time, almost fully foiled out deck actually, and while I love the look of Ugin, and want to test him, I feel that the cost of 8 vs 7 would be huge, not being able to drop him turn 3 (unless something was path'd as another user said). Has anyone encountered issues with this? I see some lists dropping pyros and firespouts. Is this something we should be doing now? I know in the past having those main have saved me in g1 affinity matchups, and help to take out early game rampers for opponents, and perhaps even bobs etc now.
Nobody runs mana dorks anymore, and I'd honestly much rather have Ugin than Pyroclasm against decks running Bob (even if it is slower). I love having MD Pyroclasms if I'm expecting to play Affinity, but I also love having MD Combusts if I'm expecting Twin, or MD Slaughter Games if I'm expecting Scapeshift.
Decks Pyroclasm is good against honestly occupy such a narrow slice of the meta that I don't actively want to see it in most of my games - which is why I want to run something else in its place. I like Spellskite for a start, but I'd also like another board sweeper for all these decks going bigger than 2 toughness. Ugin doesn't cost that much more mana than Firespout (as funny as that sounds), and hits a lot more cards like Rhinos and Anafenzas, as well as noncreature nonland permanents.
I still think the card's not that great in metas where Pyroclasm is good, but I do think it's really good in some metas where Pyroclasm is bad.
I've run Mindslaver-Tron in metas where Pyroclasm's been bad in the past, but Ugin's better than Mindslaver in fulfilling the role that Pyroclasm can't.
Maybe this is all insane ravings that I'll regret in a couple of days or weeks, but Ugin seems really good now that all the decks that Pyroclasm was good against are banned. Affinity's going to have to be extremely popular to justify what are in essence 3 MD hate cards. It would be like a BGx deck MDing Stony Silence to hit the Tron MU; it just sounds ridiculous.
I totally agree with Pyroclasm feeling extremely underwhelming this week. Against zoo it's (almost) dead - most of there guys are 2/3. Near useless versus infect (I say near as it does clear there t1 guy on your t2), only decent against affinity and only very early. Honestly, the biggest problem from affinity is the man lands. Having said all of that, I don't think Ugin is the answer. It does what we want but can be too late against the hyper aggressive decks if we dont curve out well with the tron pieces. I feel like we still need a low casting cost sweeper/removal of some sort. I'm going to have to pore through the gatherer and see if anything jumps out at me.
Had a medium sized modern event yesterday, brought tron. Pretty stock list, ran 3 pyro/3 relic/3 wurmcoil and used the slots to run an extra ghost quarter (up to 2), 1 Ugin, and 1 spellskite.
Ugin is good but I would never cut any stones for him, or karns. He's got sided out a bunch but in the matches he was good, he was really good. The extra ghost quarter won me 2 games, against affinity and infect respectively. The infect lands are really tough to deal with sometimes without wasting a karn activation.
Ended up losing top 8 too affinity. Didn't see any nature's claim games 2/3. I feel out of most of the decks poised to become tier 1, affinity will give us quite a bit of trouble. I played storm and scapeshift and maybe I drew somewhat well but they seemed far easier after board.
Ugin verdict- I would never play more then 1, and maybe even 0 is correct.
Did some testing this weekend. Really digging the version I've been trying with explores. Can make the deck feel more like a combo deck when you get some really good start's with it. Have to hit lands though, so I upped the land count by 1. On that note, does anyone find Cavern of Souls is helpful still? Of course there will be a twin uptick which usually runs a playset of remand, and of course delver will still kick around a bit. Seems kinda cute to be able to tutor for it unexpectedly to slam the wurmcoil.
Also, on the whole Pyro/firespout question, it's really difficult. While pyro being cheaper and coming down sooner is much better, with zoo probably on the upswing, 3 toughness could make or break a sweeeper for us. Anyone have any serious testing with firespout?
For all the land hate I have been running into I have been running 1 Crucible of Worlds and 4 Explore and upped the Ghost Quarter count. Crucible has saved me a few games and makes their land hate less relevant and turns my Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mine's especially off the back of an Explore late game.
Did you not read the comments where he explains exactly what I said going forward with tron after the bans?
i read the article and stopped there, and you should definitely forgive me for doing so:
most mtg-related comments sections for articles are either complaints from diehard deck/card fans, people talking strategy when they clearly have no idea and people criticising the author's writing/intentions.
rarely do i see anything constructive in comments sections except for "hey nice article" which isn't worth reading.
if there's something useful there i'll go back and look.
From the comments, made by the author...
Yes, all options other than Relic are dead in some matchups. For example, playing sweepers in that slot would result in having dead cards against Scapeshift and Splinter Twin. Relic doesn't do that much although it does stop Snapcaster Mages vs. UWR, and is excellent vs. Storm and Ascednancy to whatever degree those decks exist. Additionally, it is possible there will be some Living End and Goryo's Vengenace lurking around given that the specter of Delver has lifted. Having Relic in your deck just makes you soooo much better vs. the decks it's good against for so little cost. It essentially increases sideboard size in exchange for occasionally spending a mana or two. If there was an alternative that was live vs. Scapeshift, Twin, Jund and Affinity I might consider it, but that alternative doesn't exist.
Andrew Elenbogen has Part 2 of his article up now.
Yup. He makes a lot of good points. Relic get's a lot better again post banning. Can't see myself cutting it. His reasoning for cutting all is dust and bringing back pyro's is solid as well. I will probably go to a 3/1 split for them and maybe even cut the all is dust eventually. Or maybe try out firespouts.
Scapeshift and twin will probably be back in force now. Anyone have any testing with defense grid or even witchbane orb out the board?
Uh... Those articles were about his choices for the deck going into a pre-ban tournament. With the pod decks focusing more on a Junk midrange strategy going forward, and the delver players losing the delve aspect and moving back half a tier at least, those cards (Relic/Pyro) are probably not actually gaining any value at all. If anything, they'd be losing value at least to some extent.
Did you not read the comments where he explains exactly what I said going forward with tron after the bans?
Andrew Elenbogen has Part 2 of his article up now.
Yup. He makes a lot of good points. Relic get's a lot better again post banning. Can't see myself cutting it. His reasoning for cutting all is dust and bringing back pyro's is solid as well. I will probably go to a 3/1 split for them and maybe even cut the all is dust eventually. Or maybe try out firespouts.
Scapeshift and twin will probably be back in force now. Anyone have any testing with defense grid or even witchbane orb out the board?
It doesn't cost 4 though. It would/couled be free.
So you'd rather tap your creatures instead of attacking with them? that seems extremely bad especially when they will be goblin guides and grim lavamancers you wont be wanting to not use
The whole reason Burn can be so consistent is the fact that it will rarely, if ever have dead draws. Spark Elemental's flaw lies in the fact that when you are in "they are at 3 life" mode and need a burn spell, ripping it while they are sitting on a 4/5 tarmogoyf will make you wish it was almost anything else. The same issue lies with Vexing Devil - it will never be what you want. It's the same pitfall browbeat faced upon it's printing. When we have such a plethora of good burn spells, wasting these spots on possible completely dead draws is silly to say the least.
Its good to hear people are having results with their builds. I recently made changes that I realized grew to be similar to everyone else's build, but few differences.
@bigwithdraw
I like what you said about the Hammer and I think I'm going to try one MD. I think it might actually be better then Erebos' Whip; after all the Whip doesn't always play well with Desecration Demon.
Has anyone had trouble with 4 MD Mutavaults yet? Maybe its just my build but I always want to be able to cast AotG or Hero's Downfall t3 and I feel Mutavault lessens those chances.
I get to test more tomorrow night and see how I feel.
Yeah, it's really nice sometimes. I wouldnt put more then 1 in pre board, but it can be a nice surprise sometimes. I've actually moved 1 whip to the main deck for testing purposes. It's really good against other midrange and control strategies - stormbreath 5-8 is pretty good. And against aggro, even getting a few swings/blocks with a keyrune can swing the game in your favour. Will require more testing for sure, but could be good as a miser 1 of.
I havent had any issues. Eventually variance will catch up with you and you may have to mull a 3 muta hand, but that's magic
Thanks for the feedback. I like having both Thoughtseize and Shock as 1CMC plays so that I can keep tempo on turn 3 with Keyrune > Seize/Shock.
Perhaps just playing 4x Anger and another pure removal is a better play against creatures... but Shock isn't completely dead against control, just killing Jace after a -2 is quite good. I'll post up a report after my play this weekend.
I thought that too, but it's really a trap - how often are you shocking something t3 after dropping a keyrune? shock is just so rarely relevant in all but the white weenie/rdw matchups. It's nice to keyrune - thoughtseize but really it doesn't make a huge deal. Shock was 80 percent a dead card for me, but to each there own. And against control, you will have a plethora of dreadbore/downfalls to use against the planeswalkers - it really is quite useless.
I'm dubious of playing basically mono colored tap lands for a list like ours. Part of the reason I transitioned from B/W/R was that you always felt so behind and/or took too much land damage.
fwiw, this deck is gonna be nuts with B/R scry lands.
Here is my list going into the weekend, any comments are appreciated:
I moved whip to the SB because I expect quite a bit of quick decks this week and Whip takes a while to get going. 1x Hammer main for the explosive factor and a bit more game against esper. Otherwise, the list is pretty standard.
I did some testing with Master of Cruelties and Sire of Insanity but I haven't been overly impressed. Sire is the more powerful of the two imo, but I'd rather just play other forms of discard that are one-sided.
I wouldnt roll with less then 4 stormbreath - it just is such a house against any deck with white based removal. Shock is quite bad, I assure you - I had both jets and shocks and dropped them quite quickly in favour of more dreadbore/anger's - they are so rarely relevant.
Also, 3 read the bones and 3 thoughtseize really is tough to pull off. I was doing 3/2 but dropped the thoughtseize all together last week and didnt miss them - you cant afford to take 4-6 damage against any aggro deck, and it really isnt that great when you are just taking a creature you would have killed with an anger
Can you provide some feedback on which matches you keep Chandra in for? Also, do you worry about lacking instant speed removal for threats like Obzedat or Haunted Plate Mail? As much as I strive to work on reducing my overall pure removal for the control matchup, spells like Devour Flesh can really deal with the more control-oriented threats.
It usually only come's out on the draw, against any "big" aggro decks (IE G/W, GR monsters) as it really doesnt do much there, you drop it, plus it, and it gets smashed. It's pretty good against any weenie decks, where the ping can sometimes net you a dead creature. It is obviously great against control as well.
On instant removal - not really - between downfall, doom blade and devour that is 4, and plate mail really isnt that much of a threat - your guys trade with it, and you are probably racing faster if they are bashing with it. Ratchet bomb also deals with it, and sideboard brings in at least 2 more ways. Obzedat can be a pain, but stormbreath can be such a house between that and muta/keyrune beats they just cant keep up. Instant removal is really good in control, yeah. Even fogging Aetherling for a turn can get you a win if you have a demon/dragon in play.
I really like Hammer of Purphoros, my only concern with it is that the 3cc slot is already crowded. I'll try it out first in the SB, it seems like a beating vs U/W and Esper...
Yeah, I agree with you on that - but as previously having Lifebanes in the deck, after cutting them it doesnt feel as bad anymore. Hammer is so amazing versus any midrange/control deck. Being able to have it game 1 (even if only one copy) can just net you a free win. It is even good against some aggro decks (white weenie for example) to be able to block creatures through brave the elements and alpha strikes.
Figured I'd stop by the thread and post my current list. I've won the last 5 tournaments I've been to with B/R control. Each tournament was over 30 players, only 2 were FNM's.
Over 5 tournaments, I've dropped a total of 2 matches. I honestly don't understand how this deck is still so underplayed. For the first 2 I ran 3 Lifebane Zombie's in the main deck but after that put them into the board, as with some Mono-devotion decks it really sucks to whiff. Other then that I've made no changes since thero's has been legal.
I really like the single Hammer in the main deck. A lot of deck's just don't see it coming, and being able to curve t1 - thoughtseize, t2 - removal - t3 hammer - t4 demon is just huge, as well as with running 26 lands and 3 keyrunes, you can afford to sac quite a few lands, and turns floods into golems. The only changes I may make is cutting the single doom blade and devour flesh for something a bit better against control, or perhaps a mizzium mortars. It seems like an overkill amount of removal but the dual nature of dreadbore and downfall really dont make them dead cards - between ashiok, jace, and elspeth, you will rarely not have a target.
The sideboard is a bit more of a work in progress, but it hasn't changed much either. I'm surprised at how few people run Slaughter Games in the board. It can just neuter any deck with sphinx, and can answer any card in the deck you don't have a way to deal with apart from discard (gods, assemble the legion, ect).
Anyway, just thought I'd toss up my list as I've been doing so well with it lately and perhaps offer another view of a slightly different 75.
I totally agree with Pyroclasm feeling extremely underwhelming this week. Against zoo it's (almost) dead - most of there guys are 2/3. Near useless versus infect (I say near as it does clear there t1 guy on your t2), only decent against affinity and only very early. Honestly, the biggest problem from affinity is the man lands. Having said all of that, I don't think Ugin is the answer. It does what we want but can be too late against the hyper aggressive decks if we dont curve out well with the tron pieces. I feel like we still need a low casting cost sweeper/removal of some sort. I'm going to have to pore through the gatherer and see if anything jumps out at me.
Ugin is good but I would never cut any stones for him, or karns. He's got sided out a bunch but in the matches he was good, he was really good. The extra ghost quarter won me 2 games, against affinity and infect respectively. The infect lands are really tough to deal with sometimes without wasting a karn activation.
Ended up losing top 8 too affinity. Didn't see any nature's claim games 2/3. I feel out of most of the decks poised to become tier 1, affinity will give us quite a bit of trouble. I played storm and scapeshift and maybe I drew somewhat well but they seemed far easier after board.
Ugin verdict- I would never play more then 1, and maybe even 0 is correct.
Also, on the whole Pyro/firespout question, it's really difficult. While pyro being cheaper and coming down sooner is much better, with zoo probably on the upswing, 3 toughness could make or break a sweeeper for us. Anyone have any serious testing with firespout?
What have you cut for these?
From the comments, made by the author...
Yes, all options other than Relic are dead in some matchups. For example, playing sweepers in that slot would result in having dead cards against Scapeshift and Splinter Twin. Relic doesn't do that much although it does stop Snapcaster Mages vs. UWR, and is excellent vs. Storm and Ascednancy to whatever degree those decks exist. Additionally, it is possible there will be some Living End and Goryo's Vengenace lurking around given that the specter of Delver has lifted. Having Relic in your deck just makes you soooo much better vs. the decks it's good against for so little cost. It essentially increases sideboard size in exchange for occasionally spending a mana or two. If there was an alternative that was live vs. Scapeshift, Twin, Jund and Affinity I might consider it, but that alternative doesn't exist.
Did you not read the comments where he explains exactly what I said going forward with tron after the bans?
Yup. He makes a lot of good points. Relic get's a lot better again post banning. Can't see myself cutting it. His reasoning for cutting all is dust and bringing back pyro's is solid as well. I will probably go to a 3/1 split for them and maybe even cut the all is dust eventually. Or maybe try out firespouts.
Scapeshift and twin will probably be back in force now. Anyone have any testing with defense grid or even witchbane orb out the board?
So you'd rather tap your creatures instead of attacking with them? that seems extremely bad especially when they will be goblin guides and grim lavamancers you wont be wanting to not use
Yeah, it's really nice sometimes. I wouldnt put more then 1 in pre board, but it can be a nice surprise sometimes. I've actually moved 1 whip to the main deck for testing purposes. It's really good against other midrange and control strategies - stormbreath 5-8 is pretty good. And against aggro, even getting a few swings/blocks with a keyrune can swing the game in your favour. Will require more testing for sure, but could be good as a miser 1 of.
I havent had any issues. Eventually variance will catch up with you and you may have to mull a 3 muta hand, but that's magic
I thought that too, but it's really a trap - how often are you shocking something t3 after dropping a keyrune? shock is just so rarely relevant in all but the white weenie/rdw matchups. It's nice to keyrune - thoughtseize but really it doesn't make a huge deal. Shock was 80 percent a dead card for me, but to each there own. And against control, you will have a plethora of dreadbore/downfalls to use against the planeswalkers - it really is quite useless.
I wouldnt roll with less then 4 stormbreath - it just is such a house against any deck with white based removal. Shock is quite bad, I assure you - I had both jets and shocks and dropped them quite quickly in favour of more dreadbore/anger's - they are so rarely relevant.
Also, 3 read the bones and 3 thoughtseize really is tough to pull off. I was doing 3/2 but dropped the thoughtseize all together last week and didnt miss them - you cant afford to take 4-6 damage against any aggro deck, and it really isnt that great when you are just taking a creature you would have killed with an anger
It usually only come's out on the draw, against any "big" aggro decks (IE G/W, GR monsters) as it really doesnt do much there, you drop it, plus it, and it gets smashed. It's pretty good against any weenie decks, where the ping can sometimes net you a dead creature. It is obviously great against control as well.
On instant removal - not really - between downfall, doom blade and devour that is 4, and plate mail really isnt that much of a threat - your guys trade with it, and you are probably racing faster if they are bashing with it. Ratchet bomb also deals with it, and sideboard brings in at least 2 more ways. Obzedat can be a pain, but stormbreath can be such a house between that and muta/keyrune beats they just cant keep up. Instant removal is really good in control, yeah. Even fogging Aetherling for a turn can get you a win if you have a demon/dragon in play.
Yeah, I agree with you on that - but as previously having Lifebanes in the deck, after cutting them it doesnt feel as bad anymore. Hammer is so amazing versus any midrange/control deck. Being able to have it game 1 (even if only one copy) can just net you a free win. It is even good against some aggro decks (white weenie for example) to be able to block creatures through brave the elements and alpha strikes.
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
8 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Mutavault
Creatures
4 Desecration Demon
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Read the Bones
3 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Devour Flesh
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Devour Flesh
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Underworld Connections
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pharika's Curse
Over 5 tournaments, I've dropped a total of 2 matches. I honestly don't understand how this deck is still so underplayed. For the first 2 I ran 3 Lifebane Zombie's in the main deck but after that put them into the board, as with some Mono-devotion decks it really sucks to whiff. Other then that I've made no changes since thero's has been legal.
I really like the single Hammer in the main deck. A lot of deck's just don't see it coming, and being able to curve t1 - thoughtseize, t2 - removal - t3 hammer - t4 demon is just huge, as well as with running 26 lands and 3 keyrunes, you can afford to sac quite a few lands, and turns floods into golems. The only changes I may make is cutting the single doom blade and devour flesh for something a bit better against control, or perhaps a mizzium mortars. It seems like an overkill amount of removal but the dual nature of dreadbore and downfall really dont make them dead cards - between ashiok, jace, and elspeth, you will rarely not have a target.
The sideboard is a bit more of a work in progress, but it hasn't changed much either. I'm surprised at how few people run Slaughter Games in the board. It can just neuter any deck with sphinx, and can answer any card in the deck you don't have a way to deal with apart from discard (gods, assemble the legion, ect).
Anyway, just thought I'd toss up my list as I've been doing so well with it lately and perhaps offer another view of a slightly different 75.