I played G/B ooze, Junk tokens, rakdos aggro, reanimator, and esper control. I didnt lose a match all day. The deck is just to fast for any of these decks to really have a chance.
My main question is - what comes out in this list for the matchups? I feel like the lists are really solid, but I have no clue when it comes time to take out cards for the matchups.
With my sideboard at least (which seem close in comparison) I usually do this
Jund - Out 3 rancors, in 3 mizzium mortars. With all they're removal, getting 2 for 1'd when trying to throw on a rancor really sucks. Mortars is really good in this matchup - i'd recommend putting them in over something.
Gruul Charm - I usually bring these in against any token or other aggro decks - out goes a rancor and usually one cackler or noble, whichever is less useful.
Volcanic Strength comes in against any other aggro deck running mountains, mirror match, ect. Usually side out a rancor or two. While good, unblockable is still better.
Crypt / graf would come in for reanimator of course, and i'd take out the pillars. they seem pretty useless this match.
Nothing wrong with chaining into a burn if you're on the draw and the played an Augur of Bolas or ramped Centuar healer or something.
I think Zealot is strictly better than LM. Its just a better card on its own, amazing with not only rancor but GCR as well.
I was beginning to have my doubts with Zealot but that's because it eats removal, every single time. People are going to laugh at your LM. Sure it might get some extra damage off an emissary chain, but then it can be chumped by a lingering soul and traded.
People deal with Zealots asap because they have to be. And that's less removal for your Reckoners/Hellriders that come after.
With BTE you have effectively 12 sources to cast a rancor T2, which is when I find Rancor most valuable. You don't want to sit on your rancor and then have to play it into removal and have it fizzle, but if its on your 1 drop that they didn't want to have to remove in the first place, its their to stay.
Madcap just gives me the same problems VS mainboard did, which is less threat density. Sure you can drop a madcap off emissary and swing for 5. But you could've dropped a spear to the face with the same mana and card for the same damage, because worst-case scenario is they are just going to remove your MC+Creature the next turn, and you don't get the skills back.
I mean, ash zealot is great, don't get me wrong. But lightning mauler makes your clock that much faster.
The RG Gruul list that top 8'd the last GP didnt run them, nor rancors, so they couldnt have been missed THAT much
I'd like to bring up the Idea of using 3 Dynacharge in the Deck, sort of as a finisher for 3 Mana.
After some testing I think 3 Hellriders on 20 Lands is the thing. Also I decided to cut Lightning Mauler and raise the count to 4 for Ash Zealot. Main reasons here is the first strike and the fact that the Mauler has only 1 toughness which sometimes just plain sucks.
I got a really control-heavy meta with lots of removals, so Ranger's Guile is going to the SB for some testing, so is Gruul Charm.
I think I can even compare Rancor and Brimstone volley directly, since you used the control MU as an example.
If Rancor comes down T2 off a BTE, and represents more damage over time than Volley. Put it on a cackler, Swing turn 2, 3, (4 if on the play) then you're wiped. That's 4-6 damage, and then it COMES BACK. This means that if, like you said, you held a guy back (which you can do with Rancor because it itself on a creature is fair deal of pressure), you can slap rancor on HIM then and swing in for the last bits of damage, let's say another 2 for 6-8 total.
That's 6-8 damage for green, compared to 5 damage to the dome for 2R that requires them to wipe your board first (aka a second one in your hand is pretty much dead I'm guessing).
Just a thought, though I'm sure having less green costs makes the deck a bit more consistent off 8 sources.
While I agree rancor can be much better, sometime's it's just not. Getting 2 for 1'd is pretty bad, while rare when you play it early, it does happen. Also, it isnt instant damage - 5 damage at the dome in one turn can win you the game, compared to throwing a rancor on a cackler turn 4 or 5 when they have a thragtusk out, for example doesnt do much. Plus, I've used brimstone to take out annoying planeswalkers, blockers so more of my team can get through - I just think the pros of it slightly outweigh rancors.
I'm debating cutting 1 hellrider for 1 more pillar to have a better mirror match, or perhaps a main deck volcanic strength (there's a lot of red everywhere), but other then that it seems pretty typical. I'm not seeing a lot of brimstone volley but it give's the deck a ton of reach. Quite often I get control decks to around 5-8 life before they wipe the board. Brimstone Volley really helps keep the win within your grasp if you hold a few guys back, or keep back some spears.
Gruul Charm has been an all star for me as of late. Wiping out lingering soul's tokens that chump is really great. Also really great in the aggro mirror - unblockable alpha strike is cool.
As I said earlier, Shrine of Burning Rage has significantly improved my UWR matchup. They usually try to stabilize the first few turns - most UWR games go past turn 5-8, if I lose. That's why it's so good. If you drop it turn 2 it's usually at LEAST 7 or 8 damage by turn 5-6, right about the time I run out of gas and they are low. While it does slow down our quick, turn 4ish kills, the games I usually won that quick before could have handled going an extra turn or two. Even if you see 2 copies early, it will at least be enough damage to make it relevant.'
Also, been testing Lone Missionary in the sideboard. Good in burn mirror match, and blocks and kills giests.
So after playing in a PTQ last week with burn, and going 5-3, I have come to a few conclusions I thought I'd share with the fellow burn players.
There is so much life gain in the format now. From snapcasters casting multiple Lightning Helix's to main deck finks in jund to side board baloths and the like, life gain is a huge thorn in our side. I lost a round to scapeshift where he cast 3 obstinate baloths. I only was able to skull crack one. That's why I'm debating going to 4 skullcracks as well as 4 flames of the blood hand. before boros charm 3 for 4 was the universal norm, with a clause usually. I dont mind it. Having said that, I dont think you could go below 20 lands now.
Scapeshift really sucks. I won one game only because he was land screwed in that set. Unless you nut draw them with burn, it's really hard. I saw a lot of it around. While it seems like a very "meh" sideboard option, i'm seriously considering some Tunnel Ignus in the sideboard - I saw so much scapeshift in my meta that I think it could be worth it.
My other two losses were to U/W/x control variants. Between multiple helix's and counterspells, I just ran out of gas. That's why I'm also debating tossing in Shrine of Burning Rage. While yes, it slows us down somewhat, it really shines against any of the control or mid-rangeish type decks. In my recent testing this week, landing a shrine against U/W pretty much can seal up the game - sometimes you dont even have to use it. Just the fact it's sitting there makes them scramble to do something about it, giving you time to just collect burn and wait for the opportune moment. I feel like we already beat all the fast decks - the zoo varients, affinity with a good sideboard - that I need to start thinking about the harder, control type matchups.
I literally cannot think of a time I've used Double Strike on Boros Charm. It's basically always "**** your Supreme Verdict" or "4 you."
Really? I've used double strike a ton of times.
Against a naya humans deck, using it on a stromkirk noble increases the beat down exponentially. Becomes a 3/3 turn 2, 4/4 turn 3, 5/5 turn 4. So 2 cards usually mean they've taken 10 damage turn 4, usually totally unblock able. Also helps to give first strike damage to come out ahead in combat. Especially when you know they aren't playing board wipes. I agree with what is USUALLY is, but it has many more uses. Especially paired with moment of heroism. Lots of life against an aggro deck is great (if you don't have a reckoner to go infinite with) Drop that on a unblocked ash zealot for example and that's a 16 point life swing (8 damage and gaining 8 life)
Boros Charm becomes crappier as your threats gain more evasion, basically. I don't care about doing 4 to the head when I can just give a guy haste, vigilance and +2/+0 instead. It's a better use of mana, especially on evasive creatures with large asses, like Restoration Angel. Vigilance is just way to relevant.
I quoted the wrong post. Whoops. Whatever.
I run slayers stronghold as well. I just think boro's charm is way to good to not run at least 3. While it is a better use of mana, indestructibility is just too big to pass up. Especially with all the reckoners around, it helps you avoid getting blown out. Doing 4 to the head is probably the least used choice of it, sure. The other 2 more then make up for it though.
Plus, who doesnt want to gain infinite life? I usually always bring in Moment of Heroism, and it is much more surprising then when you drop a nearhearth pilgrim, say.
I wouldn't run more than 2 Boros Charm in even my most aggressive decks main deck, with maybe a single in the board. The card is obviously quite good, but contemporary red decks need to be creature based to be effective, and you still need a reasonable amount of interactive burn to support your creatures ~ deck space is pretty tight as it is.
Really? I run 4 main deck, with 4 pillar and 4 searing and am glad every time I see one. The card simply does all the things we want - combat tricks, saving our guys from wraths, and doming for 4 damage. I dont really have any card I want to squeeze in. I cut pyrehearts mind you.
One thing I like about sudden shock (except the fact that it can't be countered) is that it can win you the Deathrite Shaman "mirror"... but it might be right to drop vexing devils... can anyone compare how is the deck with and without them? thx
You sacrifice the occasional speedy victory for more consistency
We have a PTQ this weekend and since I did not have enough time to playtest I decided to take a Burn deck... what do you guys think of main deck and sb? Unfortunately I don't really know what kind of meta I should expect :/ ...
Personally - I'd drop the sudden shocks and vexing devils and pump up searing blaze and shard volley count. You are running 8 fetches, no real reason to not run searing blaze. That free's up some sideboard slots, id put torpor orb to 4, you really want to see it in the pod matchup. Dropping it turn 2 can easily seal up some games.
Second, of the 8 times you resolved a Ve De, were any of them on Turns 1-2? If you kept topdecking it on Turns 3+, no wonder he often ate removal instead of doming for 4 damage somehow.
That there is the reason he isn't good. Why would you want a card that if you see it turn 3/4 it becomes useless? Is 1 extra damage (compared to a bolt effect) really worth the chance it becomes a useless card? I say no. But we've been over this : )
Costing one less can be a big deal, leaving extra mana open for whatever. It's great to toss on a reckoner or falkenwrath or whatever creature is giving you a hard time. And really, O-Ring can hit more stuff, but what apart from creatures are you going to be using it on? Planeswalkers? There isnt really any plansewalkers that really hurt us when they come down. Sorin is so slow, Jace isnt much of a problem, Domi is pretty much it. Being able to pacifism there guy turn 4 leaving 2 mana up for a boros charm or searing spear is huge.
All things that matter if you're planning on taking forever. I need to actually use my land. Holding fetches to crack hoping they play a creature is not only very obvious, but also slows you down sooooo much in a deck that cares about speed above all things.
Basically, you are dropping your efficiency by up to 34% in exchange for sometimes making a decent play that's actually normally irrelevant because board state rarely matters. And that 34% efficiency loss loses you far more games in the long run. But if you wanna keep making sub-optimal plays because you want to 'feel cool' on those rare occasions where you can make your play, thats your call.
And once again, after jumping all over me saying that every card matters and you can't afford to hold anything in your hand. You turn around and say "just hold those until they play a creature so you can landfall" putting 2 otherwise dead cards into your hand instead of one. On top of slowing you down in other regards.
I use my land as well, but if I draw a third, I usually wont need 3 mana (other then specific circumstances). Do you not play fetchlands? It's really not a huge deal to wait to crack them if you don't have an immediate play you need to run out while your at 2-3 mana. And who cares if its obvious? What are they gonna do "he may have a searing blaze - i'm going to stop playing creatures!!"
Holding creatures in your hand is a lot different then holding land. You really take things way to literal. Obviously I'm not going to hold land if I need to tap out to play everything. But sometimes you aren't running out every single burn every time you can - you do have to play around stuff.
I also see you still haven't posted up any of your "major wins". Curious
Anyway, I really don't feel like discussing this with you anymore, so good luck with burn!
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
11 Mountain
Creatures
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Hellrider
4 Searing Spear
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Rancor
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Gruul Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Domri Rade
I played G/B ooze, Junk tokens, rakdos aggro, reanimator, and esper control. I didnt lose a match all day. The deck is just to fast for any of these decks to really have a chance.
With my sideboard at least (which seem close in comparison) I usually do this
Jund - Out 3 rancors, in 3 mizzium mortars. With all they're removal, getting 2 for 1'd when trying to throw on a rancor really sucks. Mortars is really good in this matchup - i'd recommend putting them in over something.
Gruul Charm - I usually bring these in against any token or other aggro decks - out goes a rancor and usually one cackler or noble, whichever is less useful.
Volcanic Strength comes in against any other aggro deck running mountains, mirror match, ect. Usually side out a rancor or two. While good, unblockable is still better.
Crypt / graf would come in for reanimator of course, and i'd take out the pillars. they seem pretty useless this match.
I mean, ash zealot is great, don't get me wrong. But lightning mauler makes your clock that much faster.
The RG Gruul list that top 8'd the last GP didnt run them, nor rancors, so they couldnt have been missed THAT much
I really suggest keeping in Lightning Mauler. While 2/1 isnt ideal, you can get some quick wins keeping him in.
T1 - cackler
t2 - burning tree - burning tree - lmauler - take 6
t3 - attack for 8 - there at 6 life.
without mauler they'd be at 10, just a little to far out of reach sometimes. Plus, ash zealot is awkward with burning tree.
While I agree rancor can be much better, sometime's it's just not. Getting 2 for 1'd is pretty bad, while rare when you play it early, it does happen. Also, it isnt instant damage - 5 damage at the dome in one turn can win you the game, compared to throwing a rancor on a cackler turn 4 or 5 when they have a thragtusk out, for example doesnt do much. Plus, I've used brimstone to take out annoying planeswalkers, blockers so more of my team can get through - I just think the pros of it slightly outweigh rancors.
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
12 Mountain
Creatures
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Hellrider
4 Searing Spear
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Brimstone Volley
3 Volcanic Strength
3 Gruul Charm
4 Skullcrack
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mizzium Mortars
I'm debating cutting 1 hellrider for 1 more pillar to have a better mirror match, or perhaps a main deck volcanic strength (there's a lot of red everywhere), but other then that it seems pretty typical. I'm not seeing a lot of brimstone volley but it give's the deck a ton of reach. Quite often I get control decks to around 5-8 life before they wipe the board. Brimstone Volley really helps keep the win within your grasp if you hold a few guys back, or keep back some spears.
Gruul Charm has been an all star for me as of late. Wiping out lingering soul's tokens that chump is really great. Also really great in the aggro mirror - unblockable alpha strike is cool.
Also, been testing Lone Missionary in the sideboard. Good in burn mirror match, and blocks and kills giests.
There is so much life gain in the format now. From snapcasters casting multiple Lightning Helix's to main deck finks in jund to side board baloths and the like, life gain is a huge thorn in our side. I lost a round to scapeshift where he cast 3 obstinate baloths. I only was able to skull crack one. That's why I'm debating going to 4 skullcracks as well as 4 flames of the blood hand. before boros charm 3 for 4 was the universal norm, with a clause usually. I dont mind it. Having said that, I dont think you could go below 20 lands now.
Scapeshift really sucks. I won one game only because he was land screwed in that set. Unless you nut draw them with burn, it's really hard. I saw a lot of it around. While it seems like a very "meh" sideboard option, i'm seriously considering some Tunnel Ignus in the sideboard - I saw so much scapeshift in my meta that I think it could be worth it.
My other two losses were to U/W/x control variants. Between multiple helix's and counterspells, I just ran out of gas. That's why I'm also debating tossing in Shrine of Burning Rage. While yes, it slows us down somewhat, it really shines against any of the control or mid-rangeish type decks. In my recent testing this week, landing a shrine against U/W pretty much can seal up the game - sometimes you dont even have to use it. Just the fact it's sitting there makes them scramble to do something about it, giving you time to just collect burn and wait for the opportune moment. I feel like we already beat all the fast decks - the zoo varients, affinity with a good sideboard - that I need to start thinking about the harder, control type matchups.
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
2 Lightning Mauler
2 Stonewright
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Clifftop Retreat
1 Boros Guildgate
14 Mountain
1 Slayer's Stronghold
2 Pasifism
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Zealous Conscripts
3 Moment of Heroism
Really? I've used double strike a ton of times.
Against a naya humans deck, using it on a stromkirk noble increases the beat down exponentially. Becomes a 3/3 turn 2, 4/4 turn 3, 5/5 turn 4. So 2 cards usually mean they've taken 10 damage turn 4, usually totally unblock able. Also helps to give first strike damage to come out ahead in combat. Especially when you know they aren't playing board wipes. I agree with what is USUALLY is, but it has many more uses. Especially paired with moment of heroism. Lots of life against an aggro deck is great (if you don't have a reckoner to go infinite with) Drop that on a unblocked ash zealot for example and that's a 16 point life swing (8 damage and gaining 8 life)
I run slayers stronghold as well. I just think boro's charm is way to good to not run at least 3. While it is a better use of mana, indestructibility is just too big to pass up. Especially with all the reckoners around, it helps you avoid getting blown out. Doing 4 to the head is probably the least used choice of it, sure. The other 2 more then make up for it though.
Plus, who doesnt want to gain infinite life? I usually always bring in Moment of Heroism, and it is much more surprising then when you drop a nearhearth pilgrim, say.
Really? I run 4 main deck, with 4 pillar and 4 searing and am glad every time I see one. The card simply does all the things we want - combat tricks, saving our guys from wraths, and doming for 4 damage. I dont really have any card I want to squeeze in. I cut pyrehearts mind you.
You sacrifice the occasional speedy victory for more consistency
Personally - I'd drop the sudden shocks and vexing devils and pump up searing blaze and shard volley count. You are running 8 fetches, no real reason to not run searing blaze. That free's up some sideboard slots, id put torpor orb to 4, you really want to see it in the pod matchup. Dropping it turn 2 can easily seal up some games.
That there is the reason he isn't good. Why would you want a card that if you see it turn 3/4 it becomes useless? Is 1 extra damage (compared to a bolt effect) really worth the chance it becomes a useless card? I say no. But we've been over this : )
You guys should try pacifism
Costing one less can be a big deal, leaving extra mana open for whatever. It's great to toss on a reckoner or falkenwrath or whatever creature is giving you a hard time. And really, O-Ring can hit more stuff, but what apart from creatures are you going to be using it on? Planeswalkers? There isnt really any plansewalkers that really hurt us when they come down. Sorin is so slow, Jace isnt much of a problem, Domi is pretty much it. Being able to pacifism there guy turn 4 leaving 2 mana up for a boros charm or searing spear is huge.
I use my land as well, but if I draw a third, I usually wont need 3 mana (other then specific circumstances). Do you not play fetchlands? It's really not a huge deal to wait to crack them if you don't have an immediate play you need to run out while your at 2-3 mana. And who cares if its obvious? What are they gonna do "he may have a searing blaze - i'm going to stop playing creatures!!"
Holding creatures in your hand is a lot different then holding land. You really take things way to literal. Obviously I'm not going to hold land if I need to tap out to play everything. But sometimes you aren't running out every single burn every time you can - you do have to play around stuff.
I also see you still haven't posted up any of your "major wins". Curious
Anyway, I really don't feel like discussing this with you anymore, so good luck with burn!