MTG Salvation

i'm betting uro is finally gone and scute swarm gets banned on arena

uro was released long enough ago, and people got to use it enough, where backlash won't be an issue. the card was too good from the get go but not warping enough like oko to get the axe right away

scute swarm has basically corrupted arena and turned your wincon into make your opponent's client crash and its extremely easy to do with no effort. i'm not sure why they saw field of the dead and said let's inject this full of steroids and jam it in the lands matter set, in an environment that also has uro, azusa, cultivate, dryad of the ilysian grove, ancient greenwarden, lotus cobra, fabled passage and solemn simulacrum. but hey growth spiral rotated! there's clearly no one behind the wheel any more when it comes to balancing design and that's a major problem when your model is churn out product.

omnath... i wouldn't shed any tears if that saw a ban, especially in brawl where almost every game that isn't kinnan is omnath

its not the worst period, but its really really really far from the best and the need for bans after every single set release is getting really tiresome.

Quote from FlossedBeaver »

If you want to let my points stand on their own merit, uncontested, then you've already conceded the argument. You haven't presented any data apart from your own say-so and some confirmation bias, so no, I don't see it as a problem. It's really not ignorant for me to disagree with a point you've failed to substantiate on a factual level. I think it's been made pretty clear by my approach every single time that your generally pessimistic attitude is unwarranted, and if you don't care to put in the time and energy to properly refute that... well, that's on you.

I come here to talk about Magic because I enjoy the game. I don't really share any empathy with those who come here only to complain; voicing your concerns here, repetitively and without substance, is about as productive as shouting into an empty bucket of KFC.

We can go back to talking about Magic now. Any further attacks on my character will be met with a quiet report.

Talking about the parts of the game that are a problem, or arent enjoyable, is still talking about magic. Sorry bro, ya gotta accept that.

Quote from FlossedBeaver »

Quote from Xcric »

we were talking about it in a local shop yesterday. we're just absolutely bombarded with products, but those products over the past year seem to have lost focus.

How so? It seems to me that having more products each with its own specific purpose is indicative of more focus, not less.

Quote from Xcric »

one great point the store owner brought up is that his newer customers and less whale-like customers end up feeling overwhelmed with product options. they come in to buy some packs, but they can buy these other packs for just a few dollars more that'll have more of this other thing in it, and for a few dollars more than that they can buy a different pack of the same set that has even more odds of getting this or that.

Isn't it sort of the shop owner's responsibility to educate his/her customers, though? To be able to foster good marketing decisions for their continued patronage?

Quote from Xcric »

trouble is, then they feel the lower priced product isn't worth it, and the higher priced product is priced too high so they walk away feeling ripped off no matter which option they go for.

I mean, that's what happens when you play the lottery, regardless of pack price. If there's no inherent value in a basic pack, though, what are you doing cracking them at all? We're talking about a product that hasn't fundamentally changed in over 25 years, not a lot of room for surprises there.

Quote from Xcric »

he's also sold out on a ton of product before most can even get it because whales will come in and buy it all to get those few hot cards, or conversely someone who isn't a whale gets really lucky and cracks some alt art foil showcase card and comes back to buy him out just like people do when they win money on scratchers. while product is moving faster and better, there is definitely an atmosphere of discontent and being overwhelmed by those that aren't getting lucky and those are the customers that have come in less.

So when people figure out that it's better to buy singles instead of packs they just stop coming to the store? Is that because your store doesn't stock singles, or because it doesn't stock non-Magic product? I'm trying to figure out why the shop is ultimately getting less business (during a pandemic, of all things) as a consequence of what happens to all savvy Magic players eventually.

Quote from Xcric »

it'd be great if there were fewer releases, but at a higher quality. more exploration of themes, less need to ban, more power across all rarities.

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive.

Quote from Xcric »

i mean, some of these sets you still can't find but we're on to the next one before anyone can even realize it. it means the people with the money, who preordered, get to experience it and most others simply don't.

Sure, this is a real problem... but we know the fault lies with how Covid has affected the production / distribution chain, not anything Wizards has done, intentionally or otherwise.

Quote from Xcric »

they've pushed the you're going to miss out angle so hard, and after awhile people feel like they are missing out... so what's the point? why keep buying? why keep maintaining? but those are the customers they dont' hear from, they just drop off as other people buy more which presents really flawed sales data. you can sell a ton of product and still have an unhealthy game.

Are we talking about Secret Lairs, or Magic in general? Because I disagree with the former, and don't see how it applies to the latter. If there's actual data to suggest people who feel the need to collect everything represent a silent majority, and that they're being driven out of the game as a consequence of limited product availability, I'd like to see it.

Quote from Xcric »

anyway, regarding spoilers for this set... i'm cautiously pessimistic.

i want to hope for the best, i want something amazing, something that i'll want to buy cases of, but given the track record i don't expect it.

I'm confused. You take issue generally with the lottery model, but you still want to have a reason to go out and buy tons of sealed product?

Quote from Xcric »

i don't even expect to be able to find the product without preordering. what i do expect is to see some mediocre reprints that no one really needed, a lack of power at common and uncommon, some creative ideas that were reigned in really hard at rare, some absolutely format warping cards at mythic or a couple of extremely in demand reprints at mythic... and not much else.

Good! If reality matches your expectations then you'll be less frustrated, and if it exceeds them then we can all expect to see you come back afterwards and offer something positive on these message boards.

Quote from Xcric »

the product fatigue is real even here, where it should be hype instead. there is just so much printed lately, and so much printed with an edh slant, that it has become difficult to keep up - not just with the information, but the ever changing introduction of new powerful cards (mostly at mythic) aimed squarely at edh players. there's a point where simply too much product competes for the same dollars, and once you hit that point it becomes really easy to just walk away in favor of something that won't feel like a wallet vacuum.

Are you actually fatigued from purchasing all of these products that you allegedly can't get a hold of, or is the fatigue hypothetical?

it would actually be both.

here's a bunch of products you want to buy, but you can't find them, or maybe you can so buy them when you see them, better get them now because you won't find them later, by the way here's another new product chock full of new cards!

here's a bunch of cards you want to buy, but we're moving into another set of spoilers in just 4 weeks, so better get them now before the list gets even longer of singles you want. oh, you missed out on that one from that set that sold like fire that you didn't preorder and can't find anywhere? guess you'll have to buy it for $50+ dollars.

you want that secret lair at an affordable rate? here's 1 day to buy it! consume!

one of the points i hadn't even considered until i heard it from a few shop owners is... well wtf do you even suggest to a new player any more? commander precons aren't standard legal. challenger decks are released so late in the cycle they're out dated. there's draft, set, and premium boosters which all come across as overwhelming to someone new and you cant even build a deck from them unless you buy a metric ****ton of them. the entire game has shifted to focus entirely on whales and has frankly left everyone else behind.

there is zero time to digest. every deck feels like its in a constant state of repair/improvement, all the time. all of this while standard becomes really stagnant and necessitates wave after wave of bannings which drives people into other formats or you know, to games that don't do that.

its just a series of very greedy decisions.

look i'm not the only person complaining about this problem, and i'm perfectly capable of being able to get whatever i want in the quantities i want - that's irrelevant to the discussion. what is relevant is the feeling of fatigue. that fatigue is proven every single day. not just here. not just by me. almost every social media post brings up these same issues. facebook, instagram, twitter, all of them have posters raising the issue. shop owners bring up the problem. their customers talk to them about the problem. it IS a problem. you can think it whinging on the internet all you want, but there is a growing number of people in the community that are seeing it as a real issue. that's just something the community needs to start accepting and legitimately start discussing because on a long enough timeline people just walk away from the game. we've seen this in the past already.

then again, the magic community has a history of burying its head in the sand as players walk away. a history of saying well more for me, and then being surprised events stop firing or their lgs goes under. nothing new here.



edit: i just noticed you attacked almost every point individually, and i don't care enough to refute all of those points. its very clear you don't see it as a problem and frankly that's pretty ignorant when there are so many saying it is a problem. i can't make you see that at this point because you don't want to. that's been made pretty clear by your approach every single time this problem has been discussed anywhere.

i think its much different from companion for one simple reason.

if i flicker something like this i can pull and pull and pull and pull from outside the game making my deck much more versatile by having whats essentially a sideboard accessible throughout the game

companion is just card 101 with significant riders attached to inhibit deck building

Quote from RSSR »

Quote from SpeedGrapher »

Magic has been super dead for me. While I'm still excited to look at new cards I'm not playing very much. They seriously need to cool it with the product release or re-organize the product releases in a way that makes sense. Cut the booster box level releases to 4x a year at the most. Then if they want to release a new secret lair every month sure.
There were 8x booster box types sets this year. It has to stop.

You want WotC to slow down their product roll of products you don’t buy and have no attention of buying anytime soon? Makes plenty of sense to me.

well... i think that plays into a larger point and isn't necessarily fair to write it all off like that

we were talking about it in a local shop yesterday. we're just absolutely bombarded with products, but those products over the past year seem to have lost focus. theyre oriented more around chasing a gimmick, or chasing mythics, than producing something higher quality that people want to buy repeatedly on its own merit. one great point the store owner brought up is that his newer customers and less whale-like customers end up feeling overwhelmed with product options. they come in to buy some packs, but they can buy these other packs for just a few dollars more that'll have more of this other thing in it, and for a few dollars more than that they can buy a different pack of the same set that has even more odds of getting this or that. trouble is, then they feel the lower priced product isn't worth it, and the higher priced product is priced too high so they walk away feeling ripped off no matter which option they go for. he's also sold out on a ton of product before most can even get it because whales will come in and buy it all to get those few hot cards, or conversely someone who isn't a whale gets really lucky and cracks some alt art foil showcase card and comes back to buy him out just like people do when they win money on scratchers. while product is moving faster and better, there is definitely an atmosphere of discontent and being overwhelmed by those that aren't getting lucky and those are the customers that have come in less.

it'd be great if there were fewer releases, but at a higher quality. more exploration of themes, less need to ban, more power across all rarities. i mean, some of these sets you still can't find but we're on to the next one before anyone can even realize it. it means the people with the money, who preordered, get to experience it and most others simply don't.

they've pushed the you're going to miss out angle so hard, and after awhile people feel like they are missing out... so what's the point? why keep buying? why keep maintaining? but those are the customers they dont' hear from, they just drop off as other people buy more which presents really flawed sales data. you can sell a ton of product and still have an unhealthy game.

i'd also wager this is a huge reason commander has surged in popularity recently. the toxic standard environments necessitating ban waves, the lack of support for other formats, the product bombardment, throw in some covid canceling limited events and what are people going to play? the nonrotating format that covers the breadth of their collection, which will be at hand, and they can play with friends at home or over discord.

anyway, regarding spoilers for this set... i'm cautiously pessimistic.

i want to hope for the best, i want something amazing, something that i'll want to buy cases of, but given the track record i don't expect it. i don't even expect to be able to find the product without preordering. what i do expect is to see some mediocre reprints that no one really needed, a lack of power at common and uncommon, some creative ideas that were reigned in really hard at rare, some absolutely format warping cards at mythic or a couple of extremely in demand reprints at mythic... and not much else. i think its really safe to assume if its been reprint this year already it won't be reprint here, and that knocks out a tremendous amount of cards that edh players actually want. the admittedly miniscule number of spoilers we've already received haven't really done anything to spark interest in me yet because it feels like more of the same, and this is really the only format i even play any more.

the product fatigue is real even here, where it should be hype instead. there is just so much printed lately, and so much printed with an edh slant, that it has become difficult to keep up - not just with the information, but the ever changing introduction of new powerful cards (mostly at mythic) aimed squarely at edh players. there's a point where simply too much product competes for the same dollars, and once you hit that point it becomes really easy to just walk away in favor of something that won't feel like a wallet vacuum.

Quote from JuiceBOX »

Quote from Xcric »

I dont know who to quote here but there are absolutely times where you vant curate your pods. Where you have no choice in who you play and refusing to means no game.

For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.

Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round

Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.

Edh experiences vary.

And yet the only person responsible for your fun, is still you...

I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for some of you all to grasp, but you can skip structured commander nights at your LGS and instead call or text friends to schedule time to sit down and play, any other night of the week...

This arguments here for how that is impossible, are absolutely comical.

and i don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp, while you can do that, and a lot of people do, its not always an option.

this has zero to do with dictating your own fun. hell if anything, toning down your play, or bumping it up, would have more to do with dictating someone elses fun. we're going to show up to an event and play what we feel is fun and it sucks to have that experience mitigated and diminished because johnny-no-cards wants to play wurm tribal, or the guy who hates counterspells throws a fit the minute a blue card hits play but this also works the other way by being thrown into a pod with the one dude in town who owns a timetwister.

if i build something new, i want to play it. i don't want to carry around 12 different decks ranging from garbage beeble tribal tier to tier 0 just to try to match the other people in the pod i'm forced to play in that night, and then hope that the other players also did that, and that we can all discuss it.

regarding setting up your own groups/times: a lot of us might be free on thursday for edh, and not on any other night of the week. so the shop has an event. we want to support the shop and its the easiest place to meet/utilize the space because its central to everyone. now if someone else shows up, wtf are they expected to do? sit and watch? make their own group with the no one else that's there? sometimes you also want to interact with new people, see fresh takes on edh, try something different. attendance to these events would logically show that there are more than a few other people of a like mind when it comes to their edh environment because if they felt they could get that select group of people together outside of the structured event... well they would be doing that.

this doesn't even get into maybe the guys you regularly play cards with aren't the type of friends you want to invite into your home for... reasons. we can all relate to that, dudes we enjoy gaming with at a store but really don't want to hang out with beyond that.

sometimes everyone is only free for just a few hours too.

unrelated to that, i do enjoy being able to explore the vast array of cards and archetypes in edh currently. it makes for some dynamic games. that said, i do feel the committee is slow to act sometimes, and ignores some problematic cards as they don't fit their style of play at all so they don't see them often. its a balance. a difficult one. right now its in a reasonable spot. but the idea that you can always discuss power level with the people in your pod and meet accordingly, or that all problems are solved with house bans is patently ridiculous once you move to an organized, structured, event. that's a concept you're just going to have to accept as that is a reality for a lot of people.

again, who dictates power level? i can sit down locally with my feldon build and be absolutely crushed by the guys i regularly play with... and still have a good time. at the same time i can go an hour north and play at a different store, and absolutely destroy them with the exact same deck. to me the power level of that build is very low, to another group its very high. discuss it all you'd like but perspective matters. why should someone be expected to go brew up something that's just god awful to meet someone elses expectations? this also works both ways, but at the same time the nature of the game dictates that people should be striving to make their decks more powerful anyway because of how varied the environment is.

be a little real here.

I dont know who to quote here but there are absolutely times where you vant curate your pods. Where you have no choice in who you play and refusing to means no game.

For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.

Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round

Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.

Edh experiences vary.

Quote from Cranky »

Quote from Shadow345 »

People don't want narrative in games, they just want power.

I agree cEDH ruins everything.

To the surprise of no one one new guy who turned up for a week or two who had the cEDH mindset ended up getting himself banned after arguing with the store manager. Not a related matter but it's reflective of the overall personality.

I know what the c really stands for and it's not something pleasant I can say on the forums.

That just blows my mind, I've had the exact opposite experience. I've yet to have one issue with anyone who plays cEDH, but I've got a thousand lifetimes worth of horror stories about being aggressively mistreated by casual players. In particular the more casual they claim to be, the nastier they seem to get. There's a super-budget EDH variant in this area and they're absolutely the meanest players I've ever met. You ever get yelled at by a guy who played 4 mana doublers on his last turn for countering his full-tap Stroke of Genius, because you're somehow supposed to know that he has no win-condition?

Just chiming in to say this has been my experience too.

The more casual a player claims to be, or their build claims to be, the nastier theyve been.

Ive seen no less than three people throw their decks physically and rage sell their entire collection after a loss. One guy threatened a beating after he used slaughter pact and his only swamp was vindicated. Its okay when they counterspell your cultivate but its rage time if you spell pierce their genesis wave.

Quote from Dank "n Derpy Gamer »

Quote from Xcric »

so many can't even comprehend why the list was created in the first place, and constantly feel all cards should be worthless.

Erm ... being a bit inflammatory are we? I'm sure that not wanting the RL to remain as-is, or not wanting it to remain at all, doesn't mean wanting cards to be worthless, and it's more complicated than that... otherwise, why do a lot of desirable non-RL cards hold a non-zero value?

Not to mention that it, IMO, perpetuates a false dichotomy with regards to the people who support or oppose the RL - in that, it helps perpetuate the pigeonholing of people as "having RL cards = pro-RL' not having RL = anti-RL," which is BS. Seriously, in parsing many discussions on the subject, here, on Twitter, on YouTube, and on Facebook, I've seen people:

• Who have RL cards, and support abolishing the RL.
• Who have RL cards, and support modifying, but not completely abolishing the RL.
• Who have RL cards, and support leaving the RL alone.
• Who don't have RL cards, and support abolishing the RL.
• Who don't have RL cards, and support modifying, but not completely abolishing the RL.
• Who don't have RL cards, and support leaving the RL alone.

And of those on both the have-RL-cards, and don't-have-RL-cards sides who support abolishing the RL list, or modifying but not abolishing the RL, there are motivations besides cards being cheaper, or worthless - from concerns about counterfeiters being motivated by how the RL is now, to the health of the formats that utilize RL cards, to the design space that is eaten away from both the RL, and the "spirit of the RL" (IMO garbage) excuse used more and more it feels.

Pardon this rant, but it just pisses me off that people (BOTH the rabidly pro-RL, AND the rabidly anti-RL) pigeonhole people so dishonestly, as it creates the very venom that makes this issue so god damn contentious, and hard to engage in fruitfully.

sure, that's true

but there is also a large subset of players who just don't understand it and feel every card should be worth the same amount as every other card, generally these are newer players. so its not an completely invalid observation. we don't even have to go far to see it, it pops up on this very forum every few weeks

Quote from The Lord of Tresserhorn »

Me?

Considering I actually collect the cards, I'd rather pay less than more just to have some immediately...

but like that... that's his point.

you'd be paying for collectors boosters, which are higher priced, after the pricing for the cards have settled, meaning you're not getting as much value out of the pack because pricing has settled. you'd actually be paying more for less by getting collector boosters later in the set's lifecycle.

i love this decision. its on point and so fitting for this one.

if they did more surprises like this i'd actually consider secret lair purchases more often

if they did more like the women's day one, and put it toward good causes and charities, even if its only a small percentage, i'd be more apt to purchase secret lairs

adding more cards to the list isn't going to do much other than just piss the playerbase off at this point. so many can't even comprehend why the list was created in the first place, and constantly feel all cards should be worthless. adding more to it is just going to erode their faith in everything.

if wizards really wants to support the lgs one of the best things they could do is prioritize the lgs over big box stores like target and walmart. stop hyping amazon as a place for preorders. shift the emphasis to the little guy. add store exclusives, communicate better with stores, ensure they get all the product that they need.

that also means changing distribution.

currently, the bigger the store the higher the priority to get product. i've seen some stores get pallets of product, while others have to order from said store off amazon to ensure that they get ANY product. all while walmart and target stay stocked. how is that fair to the lgs, and why would customers come back to the lgs level store if they can't even get product?

i mean, look at the last batch of commander precons. they were impossible to find anywhere except big box stores. most shops in my area you could preorder through, but you had to take the entire case, all 5 decks, because 3 of the 5 would just rot on the shelf. that meant they weren't going to buy more unless they sold through what they had. meanwhile targets and walmarts can handle the volume so your chances of getting what you wanted through them was much higher. still a gamble, but you at least had a chance.

then there's sets and mechanics.

design sets we want to play with. design mechanics that are fun and interesting. reprint cards that fit. balance. balance. balance. if you make it fun and interactive, if you make us feel we're getting our money's worth, we'll go to events. we'll go to events and buy product. no gimmick necessary. just good solid sets.

they could also make secret lairs available exclusively through the lgs instead of ordered direct from wizards.

there are just SO many options open to them to support the lgs and instead they'd rather throw more gambling into packs, more gimmicks into sets, and throw more product at big box stores. its shameful really.

these are neat enough, still would rather a token card in every single pack instead of these, a rules insert, or an advertisement card but at least its something different

After at least 10 years of this format existing... well i dont think this is a real problem.

This is honestly the first time ive ever seen anyone label 100 cards as a problem that needs to change.

Honestly, ive seen more arguments for bumping it to 125 to 150 if anything.

I double sleeve and shuffle no problem. It might just be your technique.

Just ensures itll sell out.

People see shortages, or that a product is harder to get, and they grab it up. in most cases theyll buy in larger quantities when they do find it.

Look at most artificial shortages created by nintendo for example

Sales data from this set is going to be completely ****ed and set the wrong standards.