Force will almost do nothing for the matchup, unless they're playing the Karn Version. If they're hard pressed to combo off they'll tutor a pact of negation. Typically you want to attack their manabase or tempo/aggro them out. Blood Moon/Molten Rain and now Pillage are great against them. Also, Ashiok. Play motherf*cking Ashiok, screws with almost everything they do.
My perspective is more from the UW Control side, where I can grind them, but from the games I played, Ashiok was busted and so was land destruction.
I never said Phoenix is as fair as Jund/UWx (which have "degenerate" plays like cheating on mana with BBE and Terminus or ignoring timing restrictions -more evident now with T3feri) or just "fair".
Phoenix is a mesh of aggro/tempo/combo elements which show depending on their opening hands and which turn of the game you are in. It isn't a monolithic aggro/combo deck that wants to smash face as fast as possible, it can and will grind.
My problem is with putting Phoenix on the same level of "degeneracy" as Dredge, Griselbrand decks etc. If Phoenix is degenerate on that level, then the decks I mentioned in my previous post are also degenerate if not more, because their fastest draws beat Phoenix dead. Words like "degenerate" have been bestowed with (severe) negative connotations that provide nuance. If you're fine with completely different things being lumped together and described with the same term, then ok, but it isn't based on their inherent structural properties. Dredge abuses the graveyard and needs it to win, while Phoenix simply uses it as a resource, as many decks are doing (including Jund/Rock and UWx), just with more intensity. There's a fundamental difference there.
That was the point of my previous post, degenerate is a subset of unfair decks, and Phoenix is (probably most of the time) an unfair deck which modern has plenty, not degenerate. (Ab)Using that loaded term as one and the same as "unfair" will get us nowhere, the words have differing intensity. We as a community should start distinguishing and establishing those terms if we want to have a conversation where we're all on the same wavelength and not just flailing around. It will help keep the conversation grounded and probably help fit decks in molds faster.
Yeah, having a hand and/or draws that are near perfect makes something degenerate. No *****, who knew. I mean, Affinity (Hardened and regular) can kill you on turn 3 and in extreme cases turn 2, are they degenerate? Burn can kill you turn 3 and usually you're effectively dead on turn 4. Hell, GDS can kill on turn 3 and also in extreme cases turn 2. I'm not seeing anyone calling the above degenerate...
I've played Phoenix for over 5 months non-stop, those extreme draws are as likely as just spamming cantrips while your thing got pushed/pathed. If you're trying to make an argument at least try and make it based on the average speed of the deck, not on god hands and extreme positive variance.
a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
/s
What is your problem that you have to interject Twin into every argument? FFS, I get a bad rap all the time exactly because of people like you making comments like this.
I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.
(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc.
For my money, aka "If I'm told I can win a million dollars in one tournament" kind of money.
Are you going to pick GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Frenzy/Hardened) or Storm, even Tron? For a million?
Or are you going to pick.
UW, Dredge, Phoenix?
Based on what I saw at the last SCG, and the last (checks notes) what 8 months? You pick Dredge or Phoenix or maybe UW.
Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.
a small minority of users constantly bashed Modern so vocally, to a point I could not stand the health of the very thread itself at some times!
I mean, if you like the best decks all being degenerate graveyard and big mana, then Modern is awesome and healthy!
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
Affinity can also transition to Ghirapur Aether Grid which ignores Stony Silence effects. It's vulnerable to enchantment hate, but Blasts are not the only outs.
Counterspell is so muxh more than a 4-off in UWx control. It's going to help every conceivable blue deck, from Aggro/Tempo to Combo. It can be played in the SB of merfolks (or main), Knightfall, Delver Strategies etc. Hell, Blue Tron might even play it.
For years the community has been crying thare are no efficient answers in modern to combat degenerate decks (spell based or not and big mana decks) and, arguably, Counterspell is one of those tha will mostly push fair strategies to the forefront.
As for UW control being boring that wins by Teferi's emblem: a) That's extremely subjective and irrelevant to Counterspell's viability in the format and b)extremely untrue, especially post WAR.
I think you're trying Feather in the wrong deck, thus reducing the focus the deck. I'll build a Boros deck with growths/dreadhorde champion/swiftspear to compliment feather's gameplan.
Is it possible for anyone in the US to buy the WAR Mythic Edition and send it as a gift or something to Europe with a CoD option, so as not to incur the around 100+ euro taxes?
From personal experience bad matchups (ie 45% and less) for phoenix are, in no particular order:
UWx Control/Midrange, BGx, Prison decks like Free Win Red and 4c Whir, Ad Nauseam and Storm.
Personally, I've had positive matchups with Tron/Titanshift but haven't played them that much. Humans and Vizier are weird and draw dependent so I'd toss them on the 50-50 side. Same with Burn, if Phoenix doesn't have its fast draws, you're probably losing the game.
A note that should be interesting from my playgroup and GP testing teams: GB Rock has a pretty good range of win %, but it doesn't have free wins. It has teeth against big mana and Dredge and Control. It REALLY beats 4C Whir and variants of it.
Another thing of interest is: Im not familiar with the latest Jund lists, but our Jund player has been playing 2-3 Anger of the Gods maindeck, and a couple of Coursers and it's been really good against Phoenix/Dredge/Bridgevine. If most lists haven't evolved, then it might have to do with player bias and inertia.
I started playing 4C Whir/Thopter Prison decks the past couple of months and I'll say that it beats most if not all of the top decks at the moment, which was a point I stressed to my friends that went to Bilbao. I changed a lot of minds and anyone that could play red put a Shatterstorm in their sideboards specifically for this deck.
This is neither friendly to new users, nor respectful to other people's opinions.
Do you think that there is this minor possibility that some people have invested thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their life into a format they once loved, only to see it transform in to an amalgamation of trash and frustration that bares no resemblance to what it once was? And that the kinds of decks and archetypes they enjoyed playing are essentially unplayable in a competitive sense, after multiple years of WOTC ham-fistedly trying to help them and make up for destroying them in the first place? And that maybe, just maybe, those people are having a hard time enjoying a format whose top decks for nearly 3 years have nearly all been obnoxious miserable decks to play against, and promote awful play lines and incredibly swingy, variance-dependent gameplay?
As I said I WISH I could enjoy the format as much as others seem to. But I don't enjoy the aggro rat race, nor do I enjoy battles of sideboards. But least of all, I can't stand losing to the parings board in matches that essentially feel completely out of my control. Keep on keepin' on. Keep saying everything is fine.
Like iD said: That's, like, your opinion man.
Personally, I'm enjoying modern more than ever, because I can play whatever deck I'm feeling and still expect to do well. I did well with Jeskai Delver, I did well with UW control, I did well with phoenix (even with the very first lists) and I'm doing well with UW Midrange. And that's just the past 7-8 months.
I'll agree with Gkourou on one thing: Phoenix's numbers shouldn't be that high, because it's not THAT good. It's not 20% good, it's 10% good. Dredge and other similar strategies keep its natural predators down, and I'm talking from much experience.
I expected that you, of all people, would enjoy a UR deck, with high velocity, a strong Plan A that's difficult to disrupt, that when it is interacted with, can fall back to good Plan B and a mediocre Plan C. A deck that out of the sideboard can morph into a great Blood Moon deck, but can also interact with it's opponents plans.
Humans can deal 17 damage with 3x Champions, Lieutenant and 1 more 1 drop. DS's T2 kill is as extreme as the quad Phoenix + 2 lootings draw, so I won't even bother describing it. Hell, Burn can kill by T3...
Besides, the "busted" draw of 2 Phoenixes on T2 is still uncommon and not even close to unwinnable. Of the times I've done that I'd say I've lost around 20-30% of those games, because of opponent's interaction.
If you follow Phoenix decks, you'll find a certain eventualities:
1) The WORST matchups are fair decks (and Ad Nauseam).
2) It's probably the best aggressive strategy.
However, all this d*ck measuring contest is beside the point. Phoenix is no more busted than the run of the mill aggressive strategies at the moment. It can be interacted with common removal, it's played as much as it's played because as KTK has stated multiple times, it's a type of Xerox, low floor-high ceiling deck, that rewards good play moreso than other aggro decks.
If your worry is the speediness of Modern, Phoenix isn't your problem, Dredge is. Phoenix promotes interaction.
Specifically, for this archetype, you want to press tempo, so Spell Pierce will give you that, spell snare often will be useless.
My perspective is more from the UW Control side, where I can grind them, but from the games I played, Ashiok was busted and so was land destruction.
Phoenix is a mesh of aggro/tempo/combo elements which show depending on their opening hands and which turn of the game you are in. It isn't a monolithic aggro/combo deck that wants to smash face as fast as possible, it can and will grind.
My problem is with putting Phoenix on the same level of "degeneracy" as Dredge, Griselbrand decks etc. If Phoenix is degenerate on that level, then the decks I mentioned in my previous post are also degenerate if not more, because their fastest draws beat Phoenix dead. Words like "degenerate" have been bestowed with (severe) negative connotations that provide nuance. If you're fine with completely different things being lumped together and described with the same term, then ok, but it isn't based on their inherent structural properties. Dredge abuses the graveyard and needs it to win, while Phoenix simply uses it as a resource, as many decks are doing (including Jund/Rock and UWx), just with more intensity. There's a fundamental difference there.
That was the point of my previous post, degenerate is a subset of unfair decks, and Phoenix is (probably most of the time) an unfair deck which modern has plenty, not degenerate. (Ab)Using that loaded term as one and the same as "unfair" will get us nowhere, the words have differing intensity. We as a community should start distinguishing and establishing those terms if we want to have a conversation where we're all on the same wavelength and not just flailing around. It will help keep the conversation grounded and probably help fit decks in molds faster.
I've played Phoenix for over 5 months non-stop, those extreme draws are as likely as just spamming cantrips while your thing got pushed/pathed. If you're trying to make an argument at least try and make it based on the average speed of the deck, not on god hands and extreme positive variance.
I'm interjecting Twin because under all that hate is the need for a "bolt/snap/bolt" deck that's unquestionably Tier 1 and in the upper echelons of the Tier. Your reputation is of your own making, and you've cultivated it since Twin's banning with hundreds of posts either directly saying it or alluding to the notion that Twin deserves to be freed, because it didn't deserve to be banned, ignoring the fact that at the moment there are 3 (very blue decks at the top 2 of them URx), all with completely different playstyles.
(For you) The format isn't bad because it's a degenerate mess, but it's bad because it doesn't have Twin. Period.
Assuming that Phoenix is "degenerate". Mind you I'm playing almost exclusively UWx control/midrange/aggro and artifact prison decks aside from phoenix when it it first started being built, yeah my choices would be either UWx, Phoenix or Humans. I'd choose UWx because I've been playing the archetype for years (6+) or Phoenix because I like its tempo/spellslinger playstyle.
I mean, sure, if you ignore UWx Control, GBx, GDS, Humans, Spirits, Affinity (Hardened and not), Storm etc. then yeah, Modern has been a cesspool of "degenerate graveyard and big mana" strategies and the only solution to this problem would've been a an enchantment that consts 2RR.
/sFor years the community has been crying thare are no efficient answers in modern to combat degenerate decks (spell based or not and big mana decks) and, arguably, Counterspell is one of those tha will mostly push fair strategies to the forefront.
As for UW control being boring that wins by Teferi's emblem: a) That's extremely subjective and irrelevant to Counterspell's viability in the format and b)extremely untrue, especially post WAR.
Reliable triggers with Feather returning pseudocantrips? Check!
Massive damage boosts from the new Saheeli? Check!
UWx Control/Midrange, BGx, Prison decks like Free Win Red and 4c Whir, Ad Nauseam and Storm.
Personally, I've had positive matchups with Tron/Titanshift but haven't played them that much. Humans and Vizier are weird and draw dependent so I'd toss them on the 50-50 side. Same with Burn, if Phoenix doesn't have its fast draws, you're probably losing the game.
A note that should be interesting from my playgroup and GP testing teams: GB Rock has a pretty good range of win %, but it doesn't have free wins. It has teeth against big mana and Dredge and Control. It REALLY beats 4C Whir and variants of it.
Another thing of interest is: Im not familiar with the latest Jund lists, but our Jund player has been playing 2-3 Anger of the Gods maindeck, and a couple of Coursers and it's been really good against Phoenix/Dredge/Bridgevine. If most lists haven't evolved, then it might have to do with player bias and inertia.
I started playing 4C Whir/Thopter Prison decks the past couple of months and I'll say that it beats most if not all of the top decks at the moment, which was a point I stressed to my friends that went to Bilbao. I changed a lot of minds and anyone that could play red put a Shatterstorm in their sideboards specifically for this deck.
Like iD said: That's, like, your opinion man.
Personally, I'm enjoying modern more than ever, because I can play whatever deck I'm feeling and still expect to do well. I did well with Jeskai Delver, I did well with UW control, I did well with phoenix (even with the very first lists) and I'm doing well with UW Midrange. And that's just the past 7-8 months.
I'll agree with Gkourou on one thing: Phoenix's numbers shouldn't be that high, because it's not THAT good. It's not 20% good, it's 10% good. Dredge and other similar strategies keep its natural predators down, and I'm talking from much experience.
I expected that you, of all people, would enjoy a UR deck, with high velocity, a strong Plan A that's difficult to disrupt, that when it is interacted with, can fall back to good Plan B and a mediocre Plan C. A deck that out of the sideboard can morph into a great Blood Moon deck, but can also interact with it's opponents plans.
Besides, the "busted" draw of 2 Phoenixes on T2 is still uncommon and not even close to unwinnable. Of the times I've done that I'd say I've lost around 20-30% of those games, because of opponent's interaction.
If you follow Phoenix decks, you'll find a certain eventualities:
1) The WORST matchups are fair decks (and Ad Nauseam).
2) It's probably the best aggressive strategy.
However, all this d*ck measuring contest is beside the point. Phoenix is no more busted than the run of the mill aggressive strategies at the moment. It can be interacted with common removal, it's played as much as it's played because as KTK has stated multiple times, it's a type of Xerox, low floor-high ceiling deck, that rewards good play moreso than other aggro decks.
If your worry is the speediness of Modern, Phoenix isn't your problem, Dredge is. Phoenix promotes interaction.