I played with this guy in a sealed tournament and he was pretty lack luster. Kalitas looks badass but for some reason he doesn't have flying and without evasion he's just a janky 4 drop that kind of sucks.
Thats interesting tron has given you a hard time.. typically 8 land disruption spells buys enough time to put an end to their bullsh*t. Have you considered something like Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter in the main?
I still think you should really cut down on the number of Consume Spirits... with 4x, is it really a card you want to see in your opening hand? I think you can find sources of lifegain elsewhere and there are certainly more mana efficient kill spells available... not sure if the mana cost in Consume Spirit is worth if to kill a creature and gain a few life.
On the topic of land destruction, I played against an enterprising fellow last night on MTGO who was running a mono black land-disruption control deck. Pretty interesting.
I don't know how much this will benefit us, (mainly because there is nothing to cut) but it is food for thought: Contaminated GroundEvil Presence
Kind of like merfolk's land disruption only it hurts less useful colors and doesn't draw cards why does blue get all the good cards...
if you open any kozilek returns, keep them and don't trade them. That will keep them in the correct location
Haha, right on straight in the trash! Or better yet, trade it in for some land destruction
I feel like the card might not be as horrible as we think, its doubtful it will be played in addition to pyroclasm/anger, if anything it will be a replacement for those, so I wouldn't expect seeing any more of it than the usual suspects... Also, the recursion effect is really more skewed towards the Eldrazi decks, of which we have a better matchup than against tron.
I can finally show you guys the one of the versions of the Mono Black Devotion decks I've been piloting lately. It's had more success than I would have thought, given it's still in its infancy, but I'm sure your feedback would help immensely.
It's certainly more control-ish than most of you seem to run, but it's been pretty effective so far. I'm still getting the feel for it, so I'm not sure if its my own lack of skill or bad deck construction that has cost me matches. It's also been tough to get full matches since many of the MTGO players seem to ditch after Game 2 (usually once they've redeemed themselves from a Game 1 loss).
Dropping in to say I played against this deck last night as merfolk, I think the core concept of the deck does work. Mana denial is powerful and certainly had me locked out of blue for several turns, and critically low on others. If it wasn't for aether vial, I could have easily fallen 0-2. I lost game 1, even with a vial out. Game 2, I managed to squeak islandwalk lethal through a resolved Phyrexian Obliterator, needless to say I probably would have lost if it wasn't for spreading seas and lords. Game three I curved out nicely and drew nothing but threats while playing around a board wipe which my opponent never drew...so it goes... I ended up winning 2-1.
Mana denial is pretty powerful and its certainly good against the current meta and I feel like the core concept of the deck is worth exploring, as it does work quite well. A surprisingly good card was Genju of the Fens, who threatened to eat attackers on block or swing for huge chunks of damage when my shields were down.
That said, I think the deck needs some tuning, I would shift away from "control" and play a more tempo based strategy by playing proactive threats while your opponent stumbles on resource denial. With the Twin banning, the format is predicted to become more aggressive and playing a super grindy pinging control deck is not where you want to be IMO. I would drop the Consume Spirits, these cards never really pay out in a super tuned meta like modern, also Underworld Dreams felt underwhelming... even with my card draw from merfolk i was never concerned with the life loss because I knew I could out race you.
I'm no mono black aficionado, but I could see something like pack rat being good in this deck. I think you need a faster win con and more threats because your opponent will eventually recover from an early mana-lock. I would also be concerned about life-gain, so maybe an Erebos? Again i'm no expert in the archetype, i'm sure others have better suggestions.
Anyway, enjoyed the matchup, and I easily could have lost. Good for you for sticking your neck out and trying something spicy. Keep it up, good luck!
I got absolutely wrecked today on MODO against mono red goblins, I played the same guy 3 matches in a row and went 0-6 in games. I only had one game where I stabilized when he had a slow hand and still lost. It really feels like this deck is a full turn ahead of us out the gates and it has faster acceleration, easily going way wide by turn 4.
I brought in chalice but never saw it, and its hard to justify keeping up mana for counters because 80% of their threats are creatures... Also goblin grenade is a sorcery, so dispel doesn't help there.
Any suggestions? I'm afraid we don't have many answers for this archetype.
There are probably a few others I'm missing... it should be noted that you will need to play around your own sweepers, so obviously you don't want to cast a ton of tokens before you play one. Also, a lot of sweepers have a double B mana cost, which is something to consider because you may not be able to hit that reliably when it matters without tweaking your manabase. Overall, there are quite a few options though. Also, as DHamlin mentioned, Hallowed Moonlight is pretty solid tech against a CoCo or Chord.
Looking at your list, I would say cut the Coat of Arms, its not helping you out at 5 mana, and you are already running 7 anthems(!) + Sorin which should be plenty of pump. Try to pick up the 4th Path to Exile and work on getting a playset of cheap white fetch lands and 4X godless shrine. Looking good though... post your sideboard too.
I go back and forth on Wrath effects. While clearly good in some matches, when I have run it the effect comes down too late. I either didn't draw into enough mana to use it efficiently or it was too late (looking at you Merfok).
I probably sound like a broken record, but a resolved Ghostly Prison is an insurmountable obstacle for merfolk. If it resolves, they have no answer to it, and we are practically guaranteed to win unless our life total is critically low. If you have one in hand, try to bait out or discard their counterspells first.
What should I sideboard in against CoCo? (thanks for the responses btw, maybe I should get better at picking my disruption targets then...)
CoCo elves is a tough matchup. Zealous Persecution is great against them and you'll want to pop it early before they get +1/+1 from any lords. Elves really plays like a ramp deck until they reach enough critical mass for a huge attack so you want to kill as many of their mana dorks as often as you can to slow them down. As a general ruled, board in more removal and use it often to keep them off tempo. Playing a Wrath of God or two in the sideboard can help too, typically by the time you can cast this they will have a pretty developed board and you'll wipe out a big army.
Ghostly Prison is awesome against aggro. The problem with elves is that they have access to a lot of enchantment removal, this is where discard helps, you can either take their enchantment removal, lord or at the least see their hand and make sure the path is clear before you drop something like Ghostly Prison. Alternatively you can bait out their enchantment removal by playing your anthems if you draw into multiples.
Hi. I don't want to derail the current discussion, but I have a question, as an enthusiast player of this deck/archetype.
I hope this isn't too noob of a question to ask here...
What else could I be doing with my mana during the first 2 turns if I'm not playing BB, and I don't feel convinced with hand disruption?
My meta is filled with combo decks like CoCo elves and twin. (is it too stupid to not like hand disruption in this archetype? I often feel like most decks I face are very resilient to having a couple of cards removed from their hand...)
Hi, and welcome to the forums! No such thing as a noob question, we're here to help.
I'll answer your question in two parts:
1) If you aren't playing any disruption or BB, you can go all in token aggro. You'll want to load up on Raise the Alarm and Secure the Wastes in addition to the core Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession. Playing so many white tokens gives you the luxury of playing 4 Honor of the Pure in addition to the core intangible virtue. At this point, since Auriok Champion is expensive, you can also consider some number of Soul Warden/Soul's Attendant for a similar effect. These cards also have the benefit of blanking half of the possible twin combo since you will be gaining life for every copy they make. With all the buffs in the deck you may also want to play a few creatures either main deck or sideboard like Brimaz, King of Oreskos or Hero of Bladehold, just be aware that these will most likely die to any removal an opponent has pretty quickly. Mirran Crusader is a hoser against green decks like coco, you should consider him as well if green decks are giving you trouble. These cards give you lots of early game action, and its really nice to double up on the anthem effects. This deck deviates a bit from the traditional BW tokens build, but it can still be competitive, plus it saves a ton of money. Nice.
2) Discard is very strong against combo. What if you could remove a splinter twin or CoCo from your opponent's hand for only 1 mana? With discard you can. This deck has no counterspells so we need to be able to interact with our opponent's spells (think of something like pyroclasm or wrath of god that destroys all of your tokens!!). How do we deal with these cards? Discard again is the answer. Most BW Tokens builds run 6-7 maindeck and a few in the sideboard with the goal of drawing multiples when we need to. This is one of the main reasons BW Tokens has good game against a large portion of the modern field, Discard allows us, at the very least, to have interaction against all decks on some level. Its a catch-all, and ripping the right card from an opponent's hand can absolutely win the game more than another set of tokens or pump spell would.
There really is no right or wrong answer when it comes to playing the deck you enjoy the most. I would advise you to at least give discard a shot, Thoughtseize and Inquisition are expensive, but Duress hits a lot of relevant cards, particularly those two you mentioned in your post.
I think especially against eldrazi, ghost quarter is better than vault by a long shot. Keeping them off big eldrazi mana lands is key, this is coming from someone who plays the deck. We need to push for lethal as fast as possible, holding back blockers for deathtouch tricks doesn't help us close out the game in most situations.
I'm pretty on the fence about Vault of the Archangel myself, its a card I am rarely thrilled to see, especially in my opening hand. In hundreds of games with this deck I can recount only a few where a vault activation mattered... Of course, this is partially due to only playing a one-of and hence not drawing it often but it feels dreadfully slow and I think 75% of the time we want to be doing something else with our mana. Of course its pretty sweet in the right situation but those are few and far between, I am going to experiemnt dropping it for more Ghost Quarters.
I could see Midnight Haunting. I'd even argue for Oath of Gideon as an easy to cast, 2 dude at 3. The problem is Gideon doesn't bring in some fliers, and having flying is a very relevant thing.
Running 4 GQ also means I can reasonably recommend Warping Wail again.
I could see running 24 lands with 3 GQ and call it good for the most part. I LIKE Midnight Haunting. I'm going to have to test it though with Spectral Procession with the 4-5 colorless producing lands. Midnight Haunting isn't all that bad as it can dodge sweepers and flash in blockers. It'd be a good change to a deck that's used to putting crap on the field at sorcery speed in a BB Shell.
I think the ULTIMATE question is this: How IMPORTANT is that one extra guy 75% of the time? And the second most important question is if you have it in hand can you cast it 80-90% of the time with 3 of your lands on the field..
EDIT: I really LIKE the idea of Warping Wail as a 1-of in the SB if we can find room. Against some decks it'd be able to shut a lot of things down.
I'm glad we've moved past the 4 SPECTRAL PROCESSION OR NOTHING argument that used to follow this discussion in the past... IMO, that argument is a trap and it stifles development deck options significantly. Midnight Haunting is perfectly fine in the right deck, i'll state the obvious here but:
1) It removes the WWW mana burden which significantly frees up our land base for more versatility (i.e ghost quarter etc)
2) We can justify more black sources which will improve T1 discard odds
3) Its instant speed. This is HUGE, flash in surprise blockers or EOT with an intangible virtue out - no one expects 4-power flying EOT tokens
4) We're only losing 1 token
Don't get me wrong, spectral is a great card, but midnight haunting is something we should encourage as well if we want to further the development of this deck.
Ah ok. Makes sense, every twin player I've faced was Grixis and went full control post board. Additional counters, Keranos, Tasigur, Echoing Truth, JVP.
Thats probably a mistake from them. Echoing Truth is a reasonable choice, doesnt deal with Bitterblossom though. Tasigur and JVP would go a long way, but they do not have Inevitability vs us. We play the control deck vs most Twin variants, they have to combo to win. How do they deal with 7 5/4s with flying, lifelink and deathtouch late game? They dont.
I think this is actually wrong. We have 4 Paths plus Murderous Cut, Slaughter Pact, etc. There is little chance they will combo off post-board, especially through Auriok Champion. They ought to be trying to grind us through Keranos. They deal with your tokens with EE, Anger, Shackles, and Jace, Architect while they beat you with a Tasigur or Keranos.
Keranos is a beating but I feel like encountering him in the wild is pretty rare -- if they are running him at all he's a one-of. I have encountered Jace, Architect of Thought a bit more recently. It may be worth considering an Oblivion Ring in the sideboard. Love the card, hate that its a 3 mana sorcery... ugh.
List looks pretty solid with what you have, try to pick up a few more windswept heaths if you can. Personally I loved playing with Ajani Goldmane, I think he is overshadowed by Gideon right now, but his -1 is pretty nuts if you have any sort of board established, I would say its even more powerful than Gideon in some circumstances because you can activate it over multiple turns.
I played with this guy in a sealed tournament and he was pretty lack luster. Kalitas looks badass but for some reason he doesn't have flying and without evasion he's just a janky 4 drop that kind of sucks.
I still think you should really cut down on the number of Consume Spirits... with 4x, is it really a card you want to see in your opening hand? I think you can find sources of lifegain elsewhere and there are certainly more mana efficient kill spells available... not sure if the mana cost in Consume Spirit is worth if to kill a creature and gain a few life.
I don't know how much this will benefit us, (mainly because there is nothing to cut) but it is food for thought: Contaminated Ground Evil Presence
Kind of like merfolk's land disruption only it hurts less useful colors and doesn't draw cards why does blue get all the good cards...
Haha, right on straight in the trash! Or better yet, trade it in for some land destruction
I feel like the card might not be as horrible as we think, its doubtful it will be played in addition to pyroclasm/anger, if anything it will be a replacement for those, so I wouldn't expect seeing any more of it than the usual suspects... Also, the recursion effect is really more skewed towards the Eldrazi decks, of which we have a better matchup than against tron.
It might not be so bad.
Dropping in to say I played against this deck last night as merfolk, I think the core concept of the deck does work. Mana denial is powerful and certainly had me locked out of blue for several turns, and critically low on others. If it wasn't for aether vial, I could have easily fallen 0-2. I lost game 1, even with a vial out. Game 2, I managed to squeak islandwalk lethal through a resolved Phyrexian Obliterator, needless to say I probably would have lost if it wasn't for spreading seas and lords. Game three I curved out nicely and drew nothing but threats while playing around a board wipe which my opponent never drew...so it goes... I ended up winning 2-1.
Mana denial is pretty powerful and its certainly good against the current meta and I feel like the core concept of the deck is worth exploring, as it does work quite well. A surprisingly good card was Genju of the Fens, who threatened to eat attackers on block or swing for huge chunks of damage when my shields were down.
That said, I think the deck needs some tuning, I would shift away from "control" and play a more tempo based strategy by playing proactive threats while your opponent stumbles on resource denial. With the Twin banning, the format is predicted to become more aggressive and playing a super grindy pinging control deck is not where you want to be IMO. I would drop the Consume Spirits, these cards never really pay out in a super tuned meta like modern, also Underworld Dreams felt underwhelming... even with my card draw from merfolk i was never concerned with the life loss because I knew I could out race you.
I'm no mono black aficionado, but I could see something like pack rat being good in this deck. I think you need a faster win con and more threats because your opponent will eventually recover from an early mana-lock. I would also be concerned about life-gain, so maybe an Erebos? Again i'm no expert in the archetype, i'm sure others have better suggestions.
Anyway, enjoyed the matchup, and I easily could have lost. Good for you for sticking your neck out and trying something spicy. Keep it up, good luck!
I brought in chalice but never saw it, and its hard to justify keeping up mana for counters because 80% of their threats are creatures... Also goblin grenade is a sorcery, so dispel doesn't help there.
Any suggestions? I'm afraid we don't have many answers for this archetype.
Sweepers are useful:
bile blight, infest, Drown in Sorrow, Languish, Wrath of God, ratchet bomb of course Zealous Persecution is super useful at 2 mana because you can cast it before their dudes get +1/+1.
More expensive options:
Engineered Explosives, Damnation, Night of Souls' Betrayal (your tokens should be fine if you have anthems out) Chalice of the Void on one to stop mana dorks.
There are probably a few others I'm missing... it should be noted that you will need to play around your own sweepers, so obviously you don't want to cast a ton of tokens before you play one. Also, a lot of sweepers have a double B mana cost, which is something to consider because you may not be able to hit that reliably when it matters without tweaking your manabase. Overall, there are quite a few options though. Also, as DHamlin mentioned, Hallowed Moonlight is pretty solid tech against a CoCo or Chord.
Looking at your list, I would say cut the Coat of Arms, its not helping you out at 5 mana, and you are already running 7 anthems(!) + Sorin which should be plenty of pump. Try to pick up the 4th Path to Exile and work on getting a playset of cheap white fetch lands and 4X godless shrine. Looking good though... post your sideboard too.
I probably sound like a broken record, but a resolved Ghostly Prison is an insurmountable obstacle for merfolk. If it resolves, they have no answer to it, and we are practically guaranteed to win unless our life total is critically low. If you have one in hand, try to bait out or discard their counterspells first.
CoCo elves is a tough matchup. Zealous Persecution is great against them and you'll want to pop it early before they get +1/+1 from any lords. Elves really plays like a ramp deck until they reach enough critical mass for a huge attack so you want to kill as many of their mana dorks as often as you can to slow them down. As a general ruled, board in more removal and use it often to keep them off tempo. Playing a Wrath of God or two in the sideboard can help too, typically by the time you can cast this they will have a pretty developed board and you'll wipe out a big army.
Ghostly Prison is awesome against aggro. The problem with elves is that they have access to a lot of enchantment removal, this is where discard helps, you can either take their enchantment removal, lord or at the least see their hand and make sure the path is clear before you drop something like Ghostly Prison. Alternatively you can bait out their enchantment removal by playing your anthems if you draw into multiples.
Hi, and welcome to the forums! No such thing as a noob question, we're here to help.
I'll answer your question in two parts:
1) If you aren't playing any disruption or BB, you can go all in token aggro. You'll want to load up on Raise the Alarm and Secure the Wastes in addition to the core Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession. Playing so many white tokens gives you the luxury of playing 4 Honor of the Pure in addition to the core intangible virtue. At this point, since Auriok Champion is expensive, you can also consider some number of Soul Warden/Soul's Attendant for a similar effect. These cards also have the benefit of blanking half of the possible twin combo since you will be gaining life for every copy they make. With all the buffs in the deck you may also want to play a few creatures either main deck or sideboard like Brimaz, King of Oreskos or Hero of Bladehold, just be aware that these will most likely die to any removal an opponent has pretty quickly. Mirran Crusader is a hoser against green decks like coco, you should consider him as well if green decks are giving you trouble. These cards give you lots of early game action, and its really nice to double up on the anthem effects. This deck deviates a bit from the traditional BW tokens build, but it can still be competitive, plus it saves a ton of money. Nice.
2) Discard is very strong against combo. What if you could remove a splinter twin or CoCo from your opponent's hand for only 1 mana? With discard you can. This deck has no counterspells so we need to be able to interact with our opponent's spells (think of something like pyroclasm or wrath of god that destroys all of your tokens!!). How do we deal with these cards? Discard again is the answer. Most BW Tokens builds run 6-7 maindeck and a few in the sideboard with the goal of drawing multiples when we need to. This is one of the main reasons BW Tokens has good game against a large portion of the modern field, Discard allows us, at the very least, to have interaction against all decks on some level. Its a catch-all, and ripping the right card from an opponent's hand can absolutely win the game more than another set of tokens or pump spell would.
There really is no right or wrong answer when it comes to playing the deck you enjoy the most. I would advise you to at least give discard a shot, Thoughtseize and Inquisition are expensive, but Duress hits a lot of relevant cards, particularly those two you mentioned in your post.
I'm glad we've moved past the 4 SPECTRAL PROCESSION OR NOTHING argument that used to follow this discussion in the past... IMO, that argument is a trap and it stifles development deck options significantly. Midnight Haunting is perfectly fine in the right deck, i'll state the obvious here but:
1) It removes the WWW mana burden which significantly frees up our land base for more versatility (i.e ghost quarter etc)
2) We can justify more black sources which will improve T1 discard odds
3) Its instant speed. This is HUGE, flash in surprise blockers or EOT with an intangible virtue out - no one expects 4-power flying EOT tokens
4) We're only losing 1 token
Don't get me wrong, spectral is a great card, but midnight haunting is something we should encourage as well if we want to further the development of this deck.
Keranos is a beating but I feel like encountering him in the wild is pretty rare -- if they are running him at all he's a one-of. I have encountered Jace, Architect of Thought a bit more recently. It may be worth considering an Oblivion Ring in the sideboard. Love the card, hate that its a 3 mana sorcery... ugh.
List looks pretty solid with what you have, try to pick up a few more windswept heaths if you can. Personally I loved playing with Ajani Goldmane, I think he is overshadowed by Gideon right now, but his -1 is pretty nuts if you have any sort of board established, I would say its even more powerful than Gideon in some circumstances because you can activate it over multiple turns.