Too slow? Finks does a better job of being a threat + blocking and can net more life? Finks can be used in other matchups too - Zoo/Jund, Sun Droplet really only comes in vs. burn.
fair point, just trying to think of other ways around our bad matchups
That's what I kept saying about Sea Gate Wreckage. It feels like a sideboard all-star. But the conclusion of the video was that a 20th land was more useful to Merfolk_Joe in the main than basically any other card, and that is part of what I am referencing. What his test allowed him to do was clearly notice what land #20 was - if it was another Island/Cavern of Souls, elucidating the impact would have been significantly more difficult.
As for Unsubstantiate... we'll have it up there for the time being, and if it doesn't pan out, I'm more than happy to take it down. But I think we should put it through its paces.
That's twisted as *****. Why would a card that did not yet proof itself be included in the Primer? It's the other way around! The cards in a primer should need to proof themselves first before claiming a spot in the Primer.
We did it for Essence Flux, and other cards that ended up amounting to nothing. But perhaps we can find the middle way and go for an Experimental Cards section. Disrupting Shoal and Unsubstantiate would certainly be in there. Any other suggestions as to what should make the cut?
Actually, since my buddy learned how to play against Merfolk and with the recent Addition of Kalitas i was on a big losing streak against him. I used to stomp him Game1 and be slightly favoured Game2 and Game3. But after those changes, i was just favoured Game1 and usually lost my Postboardgames. Honestly, my winrate was abysmal considering Bo3s.
I have now the oppinion, that IF the Jundplayer actually knows what is important and how to play against Merfolk, we are NOT favoured.
If Kalitas survives even one Turn it's practically over for us. And no, his Sideboard is not purely built against Merfolk!
Now to my friend: When i started playing Merfolk, i met this guy in the Gamestore and because he ran 3 T1-T2 decks i used him for testing my Merfolkbuilds a LOT. On Gamedays he placed usually in the Top16 and that was ok for me. Soon i realized, he was actually playing his Fullpowered decks horribly wrong. All the testing i played against him was pracitcally meaningless. So i taught him what he should discard, taught him how important it is to play around stuff and that he needs to learn the decklists of other decks. What Removals he needs to hold as long as possible.
Now he places in the Top8(out of 50ish people) every single time. And his specialty is .... ******* up MERFOLK.
We had 4 Merfolkplayers in our Store, and the two Affinityplayers and my friend actually made 2 of them change their decks because they couldn't get past those three, that now are pretty much omnipresent in our Top8. They are just really really good Players now.
Sure, my special Meta influences my oppinion on decks here in the forum a lot, and i try to stay as objective as i can be, but that is the reason why i always look out for other cards that might end up in our deck.
My Meta is very Attritionbased with a strange absence of Aggro as you can find Online a lot. Sure there are Aggrodecks, but they are a strange minority.
Sure, there are games you absolutely crush Jund, those games still happen, and when i talk about being favoured, its still not worse than 60%either way. BUT Against him, our statistics look like that:
Game1 on the play: 60% win
Game1 on the draw: 50% win
Game2/3 on the play: 50% win
Game2/3 on the draw: 40% win.
(rounded to full 5% steps)
With a samplesize of 57 bo3s since Kalitas made it into his deck.
So, how did Seagate do? Honestly i don't know yet. Sometimes i draw a card from it, but a lot of the games end with a Fulminator destroying it, before it gets relevant. People might consider this bad, but please remember, every Fullminator not hitting my face OR killing my Mutavault is a BIG win. It pressures him enough to consider it a threat he needs to handle. It is true, that with the remands i run at the moment, that i have problems getting my hand empty, but this is something that is possible to tune and streamline(i think).
Do you find sea gate too slow overall? seems like getting sea gate, and a mutavault/cavern as a 4th can be a little slow as well. I would be interested in hearing your experiences on that.
Also, wondering if you run wanderwine hubs or anything of that nature in MB?
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is certainly a pain, but I haven't seen my Jund winrate dip noticeably because of it. I'm honestly surprised your winrates are so low, and that you have 10% swings for play/draw (that's the case for the field at large, but a deck like Jund that kills slowly and relies on grinding you out of cards isn't hugely advantaged by being on the play). I don't want to discredit your numbers (good on you for keeping track), but I will say your experience differs rather notably from mine.
I've had experiences on both ends with Kalitas. If the jund player knows how to effectively use it, it is back breaking. If not, then I usually just skirt around it without much trouble.
The biggest thing is whether or not they cast it with removal in hand/LotV, or cast it specifically as a blocker. In my experiences with playing jund, I've always tried to hold kalitas vs merfolk until I have to play it, or I have removal in hand as well.
So, what do you guys think about the implications of Selfless Spirit in chord/company decks, or do you not think that is an issue?
It can be, but it's also a 2/1, and we can run night of souls' betrayal if we REALLY think that it's going to be a problem.
They have to draw it, get through our counters, and manage to sac it before we path it/condemn it. It's also 2 CMC, so it's easy to snare it
I don't see it being a huge issue, as they probably wouldn't have it in there just to be a sac engine to save their guys.
If it really becomes a problem, can always side in languish
I see a lot of lists play 2 Sphinx Rev. What do you guys think about playing 1 Sphinx and 1 Teaching ? It usually is not necessairy to play 2 sphinx in one game. Normally the first puts us out of reach. Lategame we just need to find wsz which teaching would provide. Teaching would help us as well to deal with a turn 3 lili in finding our Anguished Unmaking. It is as well Discard proved in a way. I imagine something like this :
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx
1 Teaching
It's not the fact that you may end up playing sphinx twice in one game, it's more that it's better to draw into a sphinx, and activate it for 5-6, than teachings at the end of their turn, then trying to cast sphinx for 1-2, or waiting another turn, which you may not have.
I am a fan of teachings, but as a 1-of SB option as wrath number 5 or 6, where you MUST wrath or else you will die. you can also teachings a bribery, effectively becoming the 3rd bribery in SB, since it curves right into it.
Personally, i like a singleton bribery in my side, but then again i run 2 peer in my sb as well, so i can find what i need a little easier.
In terms of my mana base, i understand colonnades are pretty much the cornerstone of the land base, but the playset costs about $130, which i dont quite have yet :[
I am thinking of using 1 shambling vent in the MB, as it is still in color, and blocks/survives most creatures in aggro
A few words on this deck, as I know there will probably be some sort of uproar from it
1) I don't have enough money for celestial colonnade, so until i get them, Shambling vents will have to do
2) I'm very U heavy, as for some reason MTGO likes to mess with my U mana sources. Probably punishment for not running colonnades
3) I need some kind of win-con outside of WSZ and Revelation, just too many things take too long right now for me
4) I have Peer in SB right now, as I don't typically need it. It's mainly against decks that I need to find a good answer fast, and this is also why I run primarily instants/sorc in SB
5) Bribery is in there, because against nahiri control and tron it can just outright win.
I am entering the competitive league, so I will keep you posted on results
Match 1 - 0-2 BW tokens
Game 1 mull to 5 to get 2 lands, first two hands had 0
Game 2 mull to 6 to get 2 lands, sequence of not drawing any land, plus 2 thoughtseize and 1 inquisition ripped everything out
A few pages back someone posted a screenshot of someone on Reddit saying this thread was full of terrible people, I can't remember that wording. I was just thinking about that, and this community is really one of the best I've ever been a part of online. Everyone is so reasonable!
When I was losing 99% of the matches I played, I probably would have given up on this deck if the community weren't so open to helping others and trying new things. I'm still too bad to contribute, though! Thanks to everyone for the help so far! Just wanted to chime in something off-topic since it's been on my mind.
I don't believe that anyone is "too bad to contribute".
I get that it can be annoying, and I get that doing some relative research on this deck is important, but there are many times that you can read something, and still not fully understand it.
I would rather people ask questions, even if they are outlined in the primer, if they need a further explanation. I would never want someone to not post something, just because they feel the question is inadequate.
In a nutshell, if you are annoyed by reading the same questions over and over, then nobody is forcing you to read and reply. Just move past it, at least that's my feeling. If you have a question on cards to use/not to use, or need a further explanation on why the deck is accepted (for the most part) the way it is, then go ahead and post, and I'm sure that someone will be able to answer you without being annoyed.
Taking into consideration the advice I've been given, how about this? And would Elixir of Immortality be more inevitable than White Sun's Zenith? I thought since esper relishes games that never end, the former would be a better choice than the latter?
This is definitely a list that I can get behind! You catch on quick, that's good.
As for Zenith vs. Elixir, Zenith actually [i]can[/i] draw the game out infinitely -- you just play until you have no deck and start casting Zenith every turn. Every time you cast it, you shuffle it in and draw it the next turn. Doing this every turn prevents you from ever decking. I'm not a huge fan of Elixir becuase of what the others mentioned -- it shuffles back in dead fetches too. That said, you could delve them away with Knot with the main upside of Elixir being that it gains life. One of the biggest issues with it is that Elixir doesn't actually let you [i]win[/i], it just prevents you from losing and some people won't scoop to it, saying "I'll make you actually kill me." Zenith does actually kill the opponent, which is huge from a time perspective.
I run into the issue of the clock a lot on mtgo [i know, but i dont have time to play except for on mtgo at like 12am]
I think this is why I have been trying to maindeck a couple more finishers than I would in a normal setting, as clock restrictions can be brutal with this deck
Also, im not sure of gideon in the SB as a win con. I get it that its a strong card, but I feel like ugin will essentially end most games, and can be cast through a blood moon
Running extra wincons as time management training wheels is perfectly fine so long as you know that's why they're in the deck. If you're not used to playing this style of control they might be a necessity until you understand your deck and the format a little better. Nothing to be ashamed of, we all start somewhere. Of that's the case one of the best pure win the game cards you can play is grave titan and elspeth, sun's champion. They both end the game [i]very[/i] fast and not a lot of decks are able to even kill them. Although this is slightly less true now since a lot of decks are running dreadbore and extra copies of maelstrom pulse, but they're both solid and lead to many "oops, I win" moments.
that's exactly it. I've run control/aggro/combo decks for years, but haven't touched this style of draw-go as often. I'm far more accustomed to tap out style, so I figure until I learn the clock better, I shouldn't drop games for specifically that reason.
I have since cut out a couple things, I still leave ugin in, but have started getting more used to making fast early turns and decisions, to save clock.
Taking into consideration the advice I've been given, how about this? And would Elixir of Immortality be more inevitable than White Sun's Zenith? I thought since esper relishes games that never end, the former would be a better choice than the latter?
This is definitely a list that I can get behind! You catch on quick, that's good.
As for Zenith vs. Elixir, Zenith actually [i]can[/i] draw the game out infinitely -- you just play until you have no deck and start casting Zenith every turn. Every time you cast it, you shuffle it in and draw it the next turn. Doing this every turn prevents you from ever decking. I'm not a huge fan of Elixir becuase of what the others mentioned -- it shuffles back in dead fetches too. That said, you could delve them away with Knot with the main upside of Elixir being that it gains life. One of the biggest issues with it is that Elixir doesn't actually let you [i]win[/i], it just prevents you from losing and some people won't scoop to it, saying "I'll make you actually kill me." Zenith does actually kill the opponent, which is huge from a time perspective.
I run into the issue of the clock a lot on mtgo [i know, but i dont have time to play except for on mtgo at like 12am]
I think this is why I have been trying to maindeck a couple more finishers than I would in a normal setting, as clock restrictions can be brutal with this deck
Also, im not sure of gideon in the SB as a win con. I get it that its a strong card, but I feel like ugin will essentially end most games, and can be cast through a blood moon
I don't think it's really for this deck. The sorcery speed really kills it. We need to maintain open mana for counters as necessary. Might be worth testing.
Edit: Late game it can draw you five cards. That's nice, but with the amount of mana invested at sorcery speed, I think we could invest it better elsewhere.
By that point you've invested 8 sorcery speed mana tho
Sphinx's rev can draw 5 for 8 at instant speed and save your life total
Maybe I'm misreading the card, but it looks to me like the best it ever gets is draw 1 then draw 3.
No, you're actually right. I didn't think the card would fit in the deck before, and it looks even worse now. Thanks for the catch!
If it were a true reprint of accumulated knowledge i would say awesome, but unfortunately it is not, as knowledge can potentially draw 1, then draw 7 [all gys] at instant speed
fair point, just trying to think of other ways around our bad matchups
deprive?
Do you find sea gate too slow overall? seems like getting sea gate, and a mutavault/cavern as a 4th can be a little slow as well. I would be interested in hearing your experiences on that.
Also, wondering if you run wanderwine hubs or anything of that nature in MB?
I've had experiences on both ends with Kalitas. If the jund player knows how to effectively use it, it is back breaking. If not, then I usually just skirt around it without much trouble.
The biggest thing is whether or not they cast it with removal in hand/LotV, or cast it specifically as a blocker. In my experiences with playing jund, I've always tried to hold kalitas vs merfolk until I have to play it, or I have removal in hand as well.
Sorry, still had it in my head of peer through depths. I do like peerr in the SB though, possibly in main as well
It can be, but it's also a 2/1, and we can run night of souls' betrayal if we REALLY think that it's going to be a problem.
They have to draw it, get through our counters, and manage to sac it before we path it/condemn it. It's also 2 CMC, so it's easy to snare it
I don't see it being a huge issue, as they probably wouldn't have it in there just to be a sac engine to save their guys.
If it really becomes a problem, can always side in languish
It's not the fact that you may end up playing sphinx twice in one game, it's more that it's better to draw into a sphinx, and activate it for 5-6, than teachings at the end of their turn, then trying to cast sphinx for 1-2, or waiting another turn, which you may not have.
I am a fan of teachings, but as a 1-of SB option as wrath number 5 or 6, where you MUST wrath or else you will die. you can also teachings a bribery, effectively becoming the 3rd bribery in SB, since it curves right into it.
In terms of my mana base, i understand colonnades are pretty much the cornerstone of the land base, but the playset costs about $130, which i dont quite have yet :[
I am thinking of using 1 shambling vent in the MB, as it is still in color, and blocks/survives most creatures in aggro
1 Darkwater Catacombs
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
Creatures:
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants:
1 Condemn
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
1 Negate
1 Remand
4 Think Twice
2 Logic Knot
1 Anguished Unamking
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalkers:
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Dismember
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Bribery
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scour from Existence
2 Peer Through Depths
A few words on this deck, as I know there will probably be some sort of uproar from it
1) I don't have enough money for celestial colonnade, so until i get them, Shambling vents will have to do
2) I'm very U heavy, as for some reason MTGO likes to mess with my U mana sources. Probably punishment for not running colonnades
3) I need some kind of win-con outside of WSZ and Revelation, just too many things take too long right now for me
4) I have Peer in SB right now, as I don't typically need it. It's mainly against decks that I need to find a good answer fast, and this is also why I run primarily instants/sorc in SB
5) Bribery is in there, because against nahiri control and tron it can just outright win.
I am entering the competitive league, so I will keep you posted on results
Match 1 - 0-2 BW tokens
Game 1 mull to 5 to get 2 lands, first two hands had 0
Game 2 mull to 6 to get 2 lands, sequence of not drawing any land, plus 2 thoughtseize and 1 inquisition ripped everything out
I don't believe that anyone is "too bad to contribute".
I get that it can be annoying, and I get that doing some relative research on this deck is important, but there are many times that you can read something, and still not fully understand it.
I would rather people ask questions, even if they are outlined in the primer, if they need a further explanation. I would never want someone to not post something, just because they feel the question is inadequate.
In a nutshell, if you are annoyed by reading the same questions over and over, then nobody is forcing you to read and reply. Just move past it, at least that's my feeling. If you have a question on cards to use/not to use, or need a further explanation on why the deck is accepted (for the most part) the way it is, then go ahead and post, and I'm sure that someone will be able to answer you without being annoyed.
that's exactly it. I've run control/aggro/combo decks for years, but haven't touched this style of draw-go as often. I'm far more accustomed to tap out style, so I figure until I learn the clock better, I shouldn't drop games for specifically that reason.
I have since cut out a couple things, I still leave ugin in, but have started getting more used to making fast early turns and decisions, to save clock.
I think this is why I have been trying to maindeck a couple more finishers than I would in a normal setting, as clock restrictions can be brutal with this deck
Also, im not sure of gideon in the SB as a win con. I get it that its a strong card, but I feel like ugin will essentially end most games, and can be cast through a blood moon
If it were a true reprint of accumulated knowledge i would say awesome, but unfortunately it is not, as knowledge can potentially draw 1, then draw 7 [all gys] at instant speed