Elves vs Goblins the decks are basically aiming for the same thing, problem is Goblins doesn't have the reach of a GB version of elves or a combo version of GW. Where goblins gets points is that alot of the time their creatures have haste and they have consistent token generators, due to this fact Goblins is less suseptible to traditional boardwipes (Wrath, Verdict, Damnation) as they get to attack with their army early before T4 and have a much easier time of winning by T3 or having the opponent so low that T4 after a wipe their haste creatures will still finish. However goblins is all in on the aggro beat down and does require alot of pieces to truly go off and bushwhacker is one of the better cards.
Personally i think Elves is the stronger of the too as if you have removal early to shut down a couple goblins and they didnt Nut draw to kill you T3 they will have a harder time recovering from the boardwipe or from go wide strategy and bloockers since they have no real way of trample, just swarming. Elves on the other hand may not always kill by T3 (it is possible) but we can rebuild easier after a boardwipe thanks to CoCo, Lead the Stampede, and alot of mana dorks. Goblins eschews the dorks for ritual effects and once their are burned its gone.
Mana sources, how many do we truly need guys. If I’m running my Abzan list I have 4 shaman and 2 Abrupt Decay that cast B mana and I have 3 RiP, 2 Stony, 1 Kataki and 1 Selfless Spirit that cost W mana. Most of my mana is Green or GB, wondering if I have enough W to reliably cast my sidebord cards.
I totally understand that! There are a lot of really good sideboard options now a days - I think it comes down to what you think you will see the most of. Like if there isn't that much Tron in your area you can probably safely cut back on damping sphere.. You don't necessarily need to show up with answers to everything if you know that a good majority will be playing Jeskai lol
As for play style - I usually try to race because the more mana they have the harder the game gets.. This usually involves playing out my mana dorks/nettles/and a lord (leaving a copy in hand if I have multiple)...
And currently I have cut Chord of calling (a lot of winning lists have done the same). it's gotten to a point that unless you are playing the combo GW it is just better to run lead the stampede to keep your hand full
And for the Elvish Visionary - I don't think they are that big of a deal. I used to run 2 but never liked them.. Like when you dump your hand and end on a Visionary it definitely feels anticlimactic lol.. Right now I am experimenting with Steel Leaf Champion in its place because it avoids chump blockers which is really good given the amount of young pyromancer tokens and tiny humans running amuck haha
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the information :). It is definitely hard to know what I will see at the tournament but I know in the past I’ve seen Tron, Eldrazi Arron, Grixis, Jund and Humans. I’m also aware that one of my playtesting group will be on UW Control for sure, and I also imagine I will see either Lantern or KCI cuz it’s big right now.
Glad to know that Visionary is not that big of a deal it makes me feel better about going down or cutting them completely.
I do agree that Lead is better the Next chord that’s why I only run 2 Chord because there are games I’ve one by Chording for Shaman and I’ve also put my Selfless Spirit mainboard as a cordable Target game 1 against boardwipes, I think if I cut chord completely I need to go from Abzan to just GB.
I will take both yours and marcWizard advice into account next time I play UW. I’m so used to just going off with elves and playing my entire hand out even CoCo it Lead by T2 or T3 if I can, but if I know my OP is on uw I should start trying to sandbag some instant speed reaction, or go off and cast lead early but hold the creatures.
I don’t really have room in my sidebord unfortunately for 3 copies of that.. having hard enough time as it is, so many good cards.
In these matches should I be playing more conservative and not overloading my board or should I be going the race route still and trying to win under the wipes? I feel like if we play too conservative we open up then having Cryptic, Verdict, and Jace online but if we go too aggressive then we run out of steam, or do we sandbag a Lead?
Ideally I would like to run 4 CoCo, 3 Lead and 2 Chord mainboard but I don’t know if we can afford to have 9 non creature spells and 18 land mainboard?
Also how important is Visionary? I’ve currebtly cut 1 from my mainboard and thinking of cutting another down to 2, and if I do drive to run the 9 non creatures then I would want to cut a 3rd visionary and 1 is pointless so that would get replaced..
Has anyone had any recent experience with UW control matchup? In the past i've never had an issue playing against them as we can get past/through counter magic and we are fast. However with the most recent lists running 4-6 boardwipes between main and sideboard (potentially even EE in the side) how has our game been?
I personally am running Selfless spirit and the Lead the Stampede's because of boardwipes however my most recent match against UW control was devestating, T3 Timely Reinforcement into T4 verdict into T5 or 6 Verdict/Teminus. Without Chord in hand to get the 1-of Selfless it never mattered and Lead only does so much when they verdict you again 2 turns later.
I will probably see more Jeskai then i will UW control and i know this MU can be challenging too with Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze but it is boardwipes that blow us out the worst and Jeskai generally only plays 2 Main and maybe 1 side.
Anyone have some tips and tricks to fight through the abundance of boardwipes right now? just trying to make sure i am fully equipped and prepared.
I am so indecisive haha. Last minute decision i will be bringing Abzan Elves instead of just GB, been testing alot online and i do miss the SB options available when we add white. List below, thoughts, opinions etc.
It's just preference, but after playing both I find Westvale Abbey to be more useful than Nykthos. I think 3 kitchen finks is a little much, I would replace one or two with Damping Sphere for Tron and Storm. I also prefer to run 4 blooming marsh instead of extra fetch lands, the life loss from fetches is relevant against burn, hollow one, and other decks that race you. Lastly, I always try to squeeze in an elvish champion in SB for going against green decks
I can see Abbey for sure, i've just always defaulted to Nykthos as i have had many games where my Archdruid is constantly killed and Nykthos just gives me that extra mana still. Might give Abbey a whirl though before the tournament and see which i prefer.
I just double checked my paper list and it had Elvish Champion in the SB instead of the 3rd Finks so my bad there.
As for Blooming Marsh, are you not worried about it coming in tapped? i have found in my games it's not uncommon for me to have 4 or more lands (if they path me) making the marshes come tapped. I agree the life loss on fetches sucks (i actually never used to play them).
Finks is in my SB for burn and Jeskai, do we need that life gain or can we just outrace these decks?
Also, what is everyone thoughts of Fecundity to help combat all the boardwipes going around? I run the Leads to help with the boardwipe decks but this also fills my hand good too.. thoughts?
Going to a tournament here shortly and really need to perfect the deck. I am happy with the Mainboard and have great success with it, it is my sideboard i need some extra eyes on. Please take a look at the deck (i've included Main and Side) and provide any help,advice or feedback for me.
I haven't done a lot with my sideboard and it is the one piece keeping me from taking it my last two tournaments. My play testing group has convinced me it should be my deck of choice this time as i am very proficient with it. Please help me make the SB strong. As it is an 8 round tourny + top 8 I do expect to see Humans, Tron (either regular or Eldrazi), Jeskai Control, and most likely will see some burn as well.
So with all this excellent Information, basing on my current list i posted (i will put below again for ease), what changes do you guys believe i should make. +/- please
Based on what i have read so far i can see the following:
- I should find a way to add 1x Jace, the mind Sculptor, either a 1/1 split or 2/1 (im inclined to test 2/1 first)
- Zenith > Secure unless i run 2x Secure (which i dont own a 2nd copy)
- Rev may or may not be needed with my CA currently
- Elspeth is > Grave Titan but may not be needed?
As for my "meta" i honestly dont know since i only play with my testing group before tournaments so not sure whats common. My testing group is UW Control, UR Kiki-Jiki, Grixis Grisolbrand, UB Faeries, And Eldrazi deck (i dont remember the colors), i also bring Elves and GW valuetown that they could play vs me as well.
I vastly preferred having only a single zenith as my wincon, plus colonnades.
I would say not only is it possible, but its actually better.
Generally speaking, A graph of number of wincons on the Y and effectiveness of winning on the X is going to be U shaped, assuming the wincons in question fit the deck.
Building your deck to have only 1 wincon (being WSZ, or comparable) is frequently very effective. Your entire deck is streamlined to use it, and you won't get clogged down drawing random cards in the midgame when you need more answers. You need the wraths and the logic knots first to even get to the point where having a wincon matters.
Another deck to look at would be storm: 90% of storm decks play 3 or fewer wincons. The effectiveness of grapeshot (or tendrils or empty), and the deck as a whole, decreases the more wincons you add. You need a critical mass of rituals and cantrips in order for the deck to function at all first and foremost.
Then decks like burn or affinity or humans are on the other end of the scale. Everything in their deck is a threat, and while some things are bigger threats than others, it all adds up. They do require synergy/raw numbers though. Playing burn with some random card instead of the lava spikes and the boros charms is going to make the deck much worse, because it relies on having a critical mass of these wincons.
Now the obvious counterpoint to this would be something like jund, that has only ~15 creatures. It seems reasonable to say that adding or removing a significant amount of creatures to jund is unlikely to improve it, and that is somewhat true.
The major difference here is that jund's discard takes answers to your threats. If you push a champion of the parish, humans just plays another one. They need 2 threats here. Jund is more interested in just taking the push so the first goyf sticks. Fundamentally, the discard spell could just be another goyf here.
Don't play DLO. I do like the card, but it just doesn't belong here. We rely far too much on sweepers for him to really shine.
I'm still playing a rev. I think its fine. I wouldn't play a second, but I've not been terribly disappointed with the singleton.
I think some form of mainboard lifegain is required, whether its as much as amalek has or not.
I think before jace/teferi/search, think twice was straight uncuttable, but I no longer believe that to be the case.
It may or may not still be good enough to play, but the primer is written the way it is because it assumes that there is no playable alternative. Even glimmer/hieroglyphic were not printed when it was written.
Most of the teferi talk in modern is about jeskai. Just because teferi may be better there doesn't mean he's better here.
I've been playing a few different splits of planeswalkers, but I do think the first jace is better than the first teferi. Bouncing creatures is obviously not as nice as tucking anything, and it is nice that teferi gains loyalty while drawing cards, but brainstorm is really good, and untapping lands doesn't matter as much as it does in jeskai. On top of that, having a decently stocked hand (which is far more common here than jeskai), coupled with mind rotting our opponent, makes fatesealing really strong.
We're no longer as instant speed as we used to be. Playing these planeswalkers, search, wraths, etc, means we will be tapping mana on our own turn more often than we have in the past. On top of that, timely is real strong right before a sweeper. If we know we're wrathing turn 4, gaining 6 + 3 chumps worth of life often totally closes the door on our opponent, not to mention timely chumping to keep our walkers on the table.
For the logic knot/negate/mana leak, I'm still on 3 knot, 0 negate, 0 leak main. Occasionally not having more turn 2-3 interaction is awkward, but its not too bad. Tarpit + teferi gives more play against planeswalkers than we've had in the past, but we still have cryptic to bounce. I think negate and mana leak are way too problematic to play (main) in esper.
Wow, where do i begin to respond to all of this knowledge. I guess from the top.
- White Sun's Zenith, I love this card and believe it generates more of a threat vs Secure the Wastes. My problem is back when i first built this deck it almost never resolved. It was either countered or i was locked out of W land from our UW control player using Spreading Seas, Ghost Quarter and the artifact to let him bring his GQ back from the GY (As you can see this was before Field of Ruin was printed). I lost many games because of this, since it got countered i no longer had a win con in my deck to continue and obviously the GQ and seas took care of colonnade. Maybe this was inexperience or maybe not? All i know is it was terrible having to rely on just 1 way to win the game.
- Ojutai i completely see where he is of less value as we are primarily creature less and the more we keep our win cons to non-creatures the easier it is to have our game plan.
- I agree the primer is fairly old and was written prior to TT, but i've watched some games more recently for Draw-Go on Youtube by someone names "Sky Lagger MTG" and his list ran 4 opt and 1 TT and while he won, he had significant problems with keeping his hand full. His list was 4 Opt, 1 TT, 1 Rev, 4 Charm, 2 JTMS and i just felt that while the deck functioned it wasnt to it's highest potential. Couple this with reading Amalek0's post on the previous page where he stated "Think Twice is just the truth" i just feel like Think Twice is still what we want, this deck wants to gain card advantage not cantrip.. I think if you want to play cantrips Serum > Opt and UW > Esper... but Esper IMO is so much more fun to play. Maybe i am wrong though, most of you have played this deck alot more then i have. Also, i might be wrong here too, but i;ve always been of the belief that you should have enough basics to cast any spell through Blood Moon so in this particular case then running WSZ, Cryptic, Supreme, ***, Jace and Sphinx I would need to be run 3x Island, 3x Plains and 1x Swamp.. thats alot of basics.
- Yes alot of Teferi here has been about Jeskai but there was one post specifically that had take aways from Barcelona that stated Teferi was the real deal. I know Amalek0 is not a huge fan of him but i do believe he is good for us.. of course testing would tell. I am also a fan of the lock with JTMS once we have destroyed their hand so i also feel he fits but its a matter of where does he fit in the list? Could do 2/1 split and cut the Elspeth so it's not overloaded.
- As for Timely i guess your right we are slowly adding more sorcery speed stuff maybe it's worth trying out.. If i do though i think i would cut my 1of Remand since it has been my biggest debated spot in order to add the main deck Timely.
- Logic Knot #3 i actually traded off while i was not playing control anymore and honestly never thought Esper would be the one i picked back up when i did so oops :). However like i said before i did find in the past that i didn't always have a GY for my Logic Knots and so they sometimes became dead cards, maybe thats less of an issue now thanks to SFA fueling the GY? then again my previous list ran 12 counters in it so i had alot of cards that did nothing if my opponent did nothing.
Here are my thoughts on some of your questions/observations. I am certainly not an expert but I can at least weigh in.
Quote from RafiqEDH »
What are your thoughts on the Dragonlord Ojutai? He is currently a Sphinx's in my paper list as i found out i do not have one yet, does this dragon do enough to earn a spot in the list?
I don't think so. I had, at one point, thought of trying to include Ojutai but the fact that it need to hit to be effective and can be answered with Path fairly easily means it doesn't do as much as I think we need. I am just not sure it really helps any truly bad matchups and the CA it gives can be achieved through other cards.
I love any and all help so all your imput is greatly appreciated. I can respect the reasoning on Ojutai, i've just been trying to find more Win-Cons but im thinking back to my old build which did not have access to Jace or Teferi so maybe they provide enough and Elspeth and Secure is enough?
Sphinx's Revelation, I love this card and as i stated it currently takes the spot of my Ojutai i had listed but is Sphinx's still worth it in the current meta? especially when running 4 Charm, 4 Think Twice and 2 SFA?
I have cut from Revs entirely. I was finding that I didn't really need it after adding in Jace and Search and the life gain was best against burn and it was too slow for that. I preferred to cut it for now. I could certainly accept that this is a mistake, but I have yet to find any games where I really missed it.
Does jace truly replace the Sphinx's rev? and if so is a 2/1 split of Teferi/Jace too much?
Pretty sure Elspeth sun's champion is just better than grave titan if you want a six mana bomb. I guess she clocks slower but not dying to path or terminate seems more valuable.
I agree with this. I had a game the other day where I had an Elspeth down against Red/White taxes. She was able to hold down the fort against the ground creatures, but I had to Supreme Verdict to get rid of their Flickerwisp(s) and/or Angels (I forget exactly what they had). Having Elspeth allowed me to do this and still have creatures on board whereas with something like Grave Titan, they would have been gone too.
Four charm four think twice two search seems like a lot of air. Mana leak should be negate, runed halo, or blessed alliance I'd think. Leak is so bad when the game goes long and knot does the same thing on turn two more often than not.
I run 4 Charms, 4 TT, and 2 Searches and so far it seems like those numbers work. I agree on Mana Leak though. I am running 3 Negate and they have been fantastic. I can't imagine them being nearly as good if they were Mana Leak. And, since Logic Knot was mentioned, I had a game where I needed to counter something out of Jund where they had 8 mana available. Logic Knot was able to do it, but obviously Mana Leak would have been awful.
On a side note, I saw Timely Reinforcements mentioned above and I think I am going to find room for 2 in the main to help with a couple different matchups (namely burn). I am not sure if anyone else has tried them yet, but they seem decent. I am going to go down to 2 Negate and cut something else for them.
And, lastly, I am going to be finding room for Teferi (once the foil price goes down a little). Are people still running him with Jace? What is the split or what are the numbers of Teferi people are running?
Thanks for all the input guys :).
I honestly forgot about big Elspeth when i added Grave Titan I was just trying to find more Win-Cons as i do not believe it is possible to rely solely on WSZ of StW with colonnades as our only Win. Teferi also gives us another but we have to Ultimate him first. I think i will switch Titan out for big Elspeth which also works better then i can still keep her post verdict from my side if need be. What are your thoughts on the Dragonlord Ojutai? He is currently a Sphinx's in my paper list as i found out i do not have one yet, does this dragon do enough to earn a spot in the list?
Sphinx's Revelation, I love this card and as i stated it currently takes the spot of my Ojutai i had listed but is Sphinx's still worth it in the current meta? especially when running 4 Charm, 4 Think Twice and 2 SFA?
As for my Card Advantage suite 4/4/2 Charm/Think/SFA - I was reading alot of the previous pages (i think i read from like 630 to 657) and saw alot of back and fourth and even some decks that also tried to run 4 Serum or Opt with them like they did in the past... this is way to much air for those cantrips IMO. Personally i do not think the deck is the same if you remove the Think Twice, as its stated in the primer it is systematically the worst and yet the best card in this deck, i was a disbeliever when i first built the deck and now i dont want to not have it. I also agree with a post someone stated is that SFA while not entierly what we want, it is too good not to include in the deck as it helps us out. 10 forms of solid card advantage i do not think is to much.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, @TomCourtenay, you mentioned a split of 1/1 for Jace and Teferi, what makes Jace #1 better then Teferi #2? Is it due to the legendary rule and potentially having him get stuck in our hand with one on the battlefield? Or is it because Jace's abilities are strong enought o warrant a 1of? I read alot of debate back and fourth and alot of posts stating that Teferi was 100% better then jace, that Jace didnt deserve a spot in the deck anymore and that Teferi was the real deal?
Paradoxically, the format is faster now without twin so remand is worse. Remand is also worse without think twice as an efficient value use for the rest of your mana.
I've been on a MB timely for a good while now and it's been excellent; it's an alternative to leyline as far as getting chip shotted out and it timewalks hollow one pretty hard.
Grave titan isn't the best finisher, but in original builds in 2014-early 2016 it was the best "training wheels" for people learning the deck and having trouble with the clock. At the time, we didn't have secure the wastes as an option and night of souls' betrayal was a mainstay so elspeth wasn't a good option for the speed aspect.
I have taken advice on the counter suite and i have replaced 1 Remand with 1 Negate, I think that 1x Remand is better then 1x Mana Leak but i could be wrong.. Thoughts?
Timely Reinforcments.. What is the appeal with this one? Sure it is very powerful, resolved against burn is like buying 2 turns, against a creature deck buys us time with blockers, the card is strong. However this deck is designed to be primarily instant speed as much as we can correct? I know recent SFA and planeswalkers have made it into the list to coincide with our Verdicts but the remainder is instant. With timely reinforcments being Sorcery is that what we really want to be playing? and using our Mana on our turn? Maybe its good enough because if we cast it while Teferi is out it really only costs us 1 mana on our turn?
Also as im at a computer now, here is a better layout of my list in paper, including the changes i mentioned.
Hey guys! Been a while as I took a break from Control in general. However Esper Control has been calling my name as of late so I’ve been reading many of the pages Ive missed trying to work towards making my 60, hoping you can give me some help on it as I’m back and fourth.
I’ve been back and fourth and I feel like I want a sphinx’s Rev. But not sure if needed, my wincons I know I want more then just StW which is why Titan and Ojutai and my counters suite I’m not sure.. I’ve thought Remand over Mana Leak due to atleast I have a cantrip in the Cavern matches Game 1.. any help would be greatly appreciated!
Hey all! I took a break from control for a bit and am coming back now, but i need some help deciding what to build. I currently do not have Teferi and probably will not acquire him relatively quickly (hard to find here) so this leaves me with 2 different decks to play / build in the mean time.
Jeskai Nahiri - Could run this with 4 Nahiri or a 3/2 split of Nahiri / Jace. Also a debate of 4 remand or 2/2 remand/mana leak? I enjoy the Nahiri style and have played it before.
Jeskai Control - This would be the stock build everyone is on now except i would have to replace 2x Teferi with 2x Jace.. I am aware that Teferi is technically better and this is where the decision comes in because i am not sure the deck is worth running as it is with 2x Jace or if i should just play the Nahiri package until i acquire the Teferi.
Personally i think Elves is the stronger of the too as if you have removal early to shut down a couple goblins and they didnt Nut draw to kill you T3 they will have a harder time recovering from the boardwipe or from go wide strategy and bloockers since they have no real way of trample, just swarming. Elves on the other hand may not always kill by T3 (it is possible) but we can rebuild easier after a boardwipe thanks to CoCo, Lead the Stampede, and alot of mana dorks. Goblins eschews the dorks for ritual effects and once their are burned its gone.
Thanks for the information :). It is definitely hard to know what I will see at the tournament but I know in the past I’ve seen Tron, Eldrazi Arron, Grixis, Jund and Humans. I’m also aware that one of my playtesting group will be on UW Control for sure, and I also imagine I will see either Lantern or KCI cuz it’s big right now.
Glad to know that Visionary is not that big of a deal it makes me feel better about going down or cutting them completely.
I do agree that Lead is better the Next chord that’s why I only run 2 Chord because there are games I’ve one by Chording for Shaman and I’ve also put my Selfless Spirit mainboard as a cordable Target game 1 against boardwipes, I think if I cut chord completely I need to go from Abzan to just GB.
I will take both yours and marcWizard advice into account next time I play UW. I’m so used to just going off with elves and playing my entire hand out even CoCo it Lead by T2 or T3 if I can, but if I know my OP is on uw I should start trying to sandbag some instant speed reaction, or go off and cast lead early but hold the creatures.
In these matches should I be playing more conservative and not overloading my board or should I be going the race route still and trying to win under the wipes? I feel like if we play too conservative we open up then having Cryptic, Verdict, and Jace online but if we go too aggressive then we run out of steam, or do we sandbag a Lead?
Ideally I would like to run 4 CoCo, 3 Lead and 2 Chord mainboard but I don’t know if we can afford to have 9 non creature spells and 18 land mainboard?
Also how important is Visionary? I’ve currebtly cut 1 from my mainboard and thinking of cutting another down to 2, and if I do drive to run the 9 non creatures then I would want to cut a 3rd visionary and 1 is pointless so that would get replaced..
I personally am running Selfless spirit and the Lead the Stampede's because of boardwipes however my most recent match against UW control was devestating, T3 Timely Reinforcement into T4 verdict into T5 or 6 Verdict/Teminus. Without Chord in hand to get the 1-of Selfless it never mattered and Lead only does so much when they verdict you again 2 turns later.
I will probably see more Jeskai then i will UW control and i know this MU can be challenging too with Bolt, Helix and Electrolyze but it is boardwipes that blow us out the worst and Jeskai generally only plays 2 Main and maybe 1 side.
Anyone have some tips and tricks to fight through the abundance of boardwipes right now? just trying to make sure i am fully equipped and prepared.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Instant:
4 Collected Company
2 Chord of Calling
2 Lead the Stampede
Land:
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
2 Damping Sphere
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Elvish Champion
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Lead the Stampede
I can see Abbey for sure, i've just always defaulted to Nykthos as i have had many games where my Archdruid is constantly killed and Nykthos just gives me that extra mana still. Might give Abbey a whirl though before the tournament and see which i prefer.
I just double checked my paper list and it had Elvish Champion in the SB instead of the 3rd Finks so my bad there.
As for Blooming Marsh, are you not worried about it coming in tapped? i have found in my games it's not uncommon for me to have 4 or more lands (if they path me) making the marshes come tapped. I agree the life loss on fetches sucks (i actually never used to play them).
Finks is in my SB for burn and Jeskai, do we need that life gain or can we just outrace these decks?
Also, what is everyone thoughts of Fecundity to help combat all the boardwipes going around? I run the Leads to help with the boardwipe decks but this also fills my hand good too.. thoughts?
Going to a tournament here shortly and really need to perfect the deck. I am happy with the Mainboard and have great success with it, it is my sideboard i need some extra eyes on. Please take a look at the deck (i've included Main and Side) and provide any help,advice or feedback for me.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Dwynen's ELite
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Shaman of the Pack
4 Collected Company
2 Chord of Calling
2 Lead the Stampede
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lead the Stampede
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Relic of Progenitus
I haven't done a lot with my sideboard and it is the one piece keeping me from taking it my last two tournaments. My play testing group has convinced me it should be my deck of choice this time as i am very proficient with it. Please help me make the SB strong. As it is an 8 round tourny + top 8 I do expect to see Humans, Tron (either regular or Eldrazi), Jeskai Control, and most likely will see some burn as well.
Thanks in advance!
3 Snapcaster Mage
Card Advantage:
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Think Twice
4 Esper Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Removal:
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Supreme verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Cantrip:
1 Remand
Counters:
2 logic Knot
1 negate
4 Cryptic Command
Other:
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Irrigated Farmland
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Based on what i have read so far i can see the following:
- I should find a way to add 1x Jace, the mind Sculptor, either a 1/1 split or 2/1 (im inclined to test 2/1 first)
- Zenith > Secure unless i run 2x Secure (which i dont own a 2nd copy)
- Rev may or may not be needed with my CA currently
- Elspeth is > Grave Titan but may not be needed?
As for my "meta" i honestly dont know since i only play with my testing group before tournaments so not sure whats common. My testing group is UW Control, UR Kiki-Jiki, Grixis Grisolbrand, UB Faeries, And Eldrazi deck (i dont remember the colors), i also bring Elves and GW valuetown that they could play vs me as well.
I would say not only is it possible, but its actually better.
Generally speaking, A graph of number of wincons on the Y and effectiveness of winning on the X is going to be U shaped, assuming the wincons in question fit the deck.
Building your deck to have only 1 wincon (being WSZ, or comparable) is frequently very effective. Your entire deck is streamlined to use it, and you won't get clogged down drawing random cards in the midgame when you need more answers. You need the wraths and the logic knots first to even get to the point where having a wincon matters.
Another deck to look at would be storm: 90% of storm decks play 3 or fewer wincons. The effectiveness of grapeshot (or tendrils or empty), and the deck as a whole, decreases the more wincons you add. You need a critical mass of rituals and cantrips in order for the deck to function at all first and foremost.
Then decks like burn or affinity or humans are on the other end of the scale. Everything in their deck is a threat, and while some things are bigger threats than others, it all adds up. They do require synergy/raw numbers though. Playing burn with some random card instead of the lava spikes and the boros charms is going to make the deck much worse, because it relies on having a critical mass of these wincons.
Now the obvious counterpoint to this would be something like jund, that has only ~15 creatures. It seems reasonable to say that adding or removing a significant amount of creatures to jund is unlikely to improve it, and that is somewhat true.
The major difference here is that jund's discard takes answers to your threats. If you push a champion of the parish, humans just plays another one. They need 2 threats here. Jund is more interested in just taking the push so the first goyf sticks. Fundamentally, the discard spell could just be another goyf here.
Don't play DLO. I do like the card, but it just doesn't belong here. We rely far too much on sweepers for him to really shine.
I'm still playing a rev. I think its fine. I wouldn't play a second, but I've not been terribly disappointed with the singleton.
I think some form of mainboard lifegain is required, whether its as much as amalek has or not.
I think before jace/teferi/search, think twice was straight uncuttable, but I no longer believe that to be the case.
It may or may not still be good enough to play, but the primer is written the way it is because it assumes that there is no playable alternative. Even glimmer/hieroglyphic were not printed when it was written.
Most of the teferi talk in modern is about jeskai. Just because teferi may be better there doesn't mean he's better here.
I've been playing a few different splits of planeswalkers, but I do think the first jace is better than the first teferi. Bouncing creatures is obviously not as nice as tucking anything, and it is nice that teferi gains loyalty while drawing cards, but brainstorm is really good, and untapping lands doesn't matter as much as it does in jeskai. On top of that, having a decently stocked hand (which is far more common here than jeskai), coupled with mind rotting our opponent, makes fatesealing really strong.
We're no longer as instant speed as we used to be. Playing these planeswalkers, search, wraths, etc, means we will be tapping mana on our own turn more often than we have in the past. On top of that, timely is real strong right before a sweeper. If we know we're wrathing turn 4, gaining 6 + 3 chumps worth of life often totally closes the door on our opponent, not to mention timely chumping to keep our walkers on the table.
For the logic knot/negate/mana leak, I'm still on 3 knot, 0 negate, 0 leak main. Occasionally not having more turn 2-3 interaction is awkward, but its not too bad. Tarpit + teferi gives more play against planeswalkers than we've had in the past, but we still have cryptic to bounce. I think negate and mana leak are way too problematic to play (main) in esper.
Wow, where do i begin to respond to all of this knowledge. I guess from the top.
- White Sun's Zenith, I love this card and believe it generates more of a threat vs Secure the Wastes. My problem is back when i first built this deck it almost never resolved. It was either countered or i was locked out of W land from our UW control player using Spreading Seas, Ghost Quarter and the artifact to let him bring his GQ back from the GY (As you can see this was before Field of Ruin was printed). I lost many games because of this, since it got countered i no longer had a win con in my deck to continue and obviously the GQ and seas took care of colonnade. Maybe this was inexperience or maybe not? All i know is it was terrible having to rely on just 1 way to win the game.
- Ojutai i completely see where he is of less value as we are primarily creature less and the more we keep our win cons to non-creatures the easier it is to have our game plan.
- I agree the primer is fairly old and was written prior to TT, but i've watched some games more recently for Draw-Go on Youtube by someone names "Sky Lagger MTG" and his list ran 4 opt and 1 TT and while he won, he had significant problems with keeping his hand full. His list was 4 Opt, 1 TT, 1 Rev, 4 Charm, 2 JTMS and i just felt that while the deck functioned it wasnt to it's highest potential. Couple this with reading Amalek0's post on the previous page where he stated "Think Twice is just the truth" i just feel like Think Twice is still what we want, this deck wants to gain card advantage not cantrip.. I think if you want to play cantrips Serum > Opt and UW > Esper... but Esper IMO is so much more fun to play. Maybe i am wrong though, most of you have played this deck alot more then i have. Also, i might be wrong here too, but i;ve always been of the belief that you should have enough basics to cast any spell through Blood Moon so in this particular case then running WSZ, Cryptic, Supreme, ***, Jace and Sphinx I would need to be run 3x Island, 3x Plains and 1x Swamp.. thats alot of basics.
- Yes alot of Teferi here has been about Jeskai but there was one post specifically that had take aways from Barcelona that stated Teferi was the real deal. I know Amalek0 is not a huge fan of him but i do believe he is good for us.. of course testing would tell. I am also a fan of the lock with JTMS once we have destroyed their hand so i also feel he fits but its a matter of where does he fit in the list? Could do 2/1 split and cut the Elspeth so it's not overloaded.
- As for Timely i guess your right we are slowly adding more sorcery speed stuff maybe it's worth trying out.. If i do though i think i would cut my 1of Remand since it has been my biggest debated spot in order to add the main deck Timely.
- Logic Knot #3 i actually traded off while i was not playing control anymore and honestly never thought Esper would be the one i picked back up when i did so oops :). However like i said before i did find in the past that i didn't always have a GY for my Logic Knots and so they sometimes became dead cards, maybe thats less of an issue now thanks to SFA fueling the GY? then again my previous list ran 12 counters in it so i had alot of cards that did nothing if my opponent did nothing.
I love any and all help so all your imput is greatly appreciated. I can respect the reasoning on Ojutai, i've just been trying to find more Win-Cons but im thinking back to my old build which did not have access to Jace or Teferi so maybe they provide enough and Elspeth and Secure is enough?
Does jace truly replace the Sphinx's rev? and if so is a 2/1 split of Teferi/Jace too much?
Thanks for all the input guys :).
I honestly forgot about big Elspeth when i added Grave Titan I was just trying to find more Win-Cons as i do not believe it is possible to rely solely on WSZ of StW with colonnades as our only Win. Teferi also gives us another but we have to Ultimate him first. I think i will switch Titan out for big Elspeth which also works better then i can still keep her post verdict from my side if need be. What are your thoughts on the Dragonlord Ojutai? He is currently a Sphinx's in my paper list as i found out i do not have one yet, does this dragon do enough to earn a spot in the list?
Sphinx's Revelation, I love this card and as i stated it currently takes the spot of my Ojutai i had listed but is Sphinx's still worth it in the current meta? especially when running 4 Charm, 4 Think Twice and 2 SFA?
As for my Card Advantage suite 4/4/2 Charm/Think/SFA - I was reading alot of the previous pages (i think i read from like 630 to 657) and saw alot of back and fourth and even some decks that also tried to run 4 Serum or Opt with them like they did in the past... this is way to much air for those cantrips IMO. Personally i do not think the deck is the same if you remove the Think Twice, as its stated in the primer it is systematically the worst and yet the best card in this deck, i was a disbeliever when i first built the deck and now i dont want to not have it. I also agree with a post someone stated is that SFA while not entierly what we want, it is too good not to include in the deck as it helps us out. 10 forms of solid card advantage i do not think is to much.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, @TomCourtenay, you mentioned a split of 1/1 for Jace and Teferi, what makes Jace #1 better then Teferi #2? Is it due to the legendary rule and potentially having him get stuck in our hand with one on the battlefield? Or is it because Jace's abilities are strong enought o warrant a 1of? I read alot of debate back and fourth and alot of posts stating that Teferi was 100% better then jace, that Jace didnt deserve a spot in the deck anymore and that Teferi was the real deal?
I have taken advice on the counter suite and i have replaced 1 Remand with 1 Negate, I think that 1x Remand is better then 1x Mana Leak but i could be wrong.. Thoughts?
Timely Reinforcments.. What is the appeal with this one? Sure it is very powerful, resolved against burn is like buying 2 turns, against a creature deck buys us time with blockers, the card is strong. However this deck is designed to be primarily instant speed as much as we can correct? I know recent SFA and planeswalkers have made it into the list to coincide with our Verdicts but the remainder is instant. With timely reinforcments being Sorcery is that what we really want to be playing? and using our Mana on our turn? Maybe its good enough because if we cast it while Teferi is out it really only costs us 1 mana on our turn?
Also as im at a computer now, here is a better layout of my list in paper, including the changes i mentioned.
3 Snapcaster Mage
Removal: 9
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Card Advantage: 11
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Think Twice
4 Esper Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Remand
Counters: 7
2 Logic Knot
1 Negate
4 Cryptic Command
Win-Cons: 2
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Other: 2
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Land: 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Irrigated Farmland
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Fatal Push
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Grave Titan
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial fortress
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
I’ve been back and fourth and I feel like I want a sphinx’s Rev. But not sure if needed, my wincons I know I want more then just StW which is why Titan and Ojutai and my counters suite I’m not sure.. I’ve thought Remand over Mana Leak due to atleast I have a cantrip in the Cavern matches Game 1.. any help would be greatly appreciated!
Jeskai Nahiri - Could run this with 4 Nahiri or a 3/2 split of Nahiri / Jace. Also a debate of 4 remand or 2/2 remand/mana leak? I enjoy the Nahiri style and have played it before.
Jeskai Control - This would be the stock build everyone is on now except i would have to replace 2x Teferi with 2x Jace.. I am aware that Teferi is technically better and this is where the decision comes in because i am not sure the deck is worth running as it is with 2x Jace or if i should just play the Nahiri package until i acquire the Teferi.
Let me know your thoughts and opinions please