It's ok. "Amazing" is a strong...strong stretch. I would rather have an extra supreme verdict (which also nullifies their strongest top deck and then some).
A top decked plating or ravager won't swing the game to a loss if they are behind. The only potential top-deck card that can swing a game that much is etched champion, and only if they are not too far behind.
I have extensive experience against Affinity. Both as an ex-affinity pilot and as well as plenty of reps against the deck as a Jeski Pilot.
Against a top deck verdict does nothing. They top deck plating active blinkmoth and kill you while you sit with your verdict in hand.
You run 20+ ways to kill a blink moth (bolt, path, helix, snapcaster, celestial colonnade, spell queller). If a top deck plating + blinkmoth kills you - you are not ahead. You are behind. Very very very far behind. You may have stabilized but you are still behind. Hence my comment below
A top decked plating or ravager won't swing the game to a loss if they are behind.
I don't know what you are smoking but Collonade active and block is SIX mana.
We are talking about top-decking situations. Those typically don't occur till after turn 4.
Typically turn 5/6 by the time Jeski exhausts all of it's resources.
The way Affinity beats jeskai is by top decking a power card
Also - casting cranial plating, activating blink moth, and equipping takes 5 mana. Affinity is not going to have that much mana before turn 4/5.
Unless they drew very well... and in that case the Jeskai Player is behind. See my earlier comment.
Or unless they flood out... and if that is the case blinkmoth + cranial plating isn't going to kill you.
EDIT: do you play this matchup much? Because having 5 mana for affinity before turn 6 is very rare unless they flood out. They don't want that much mana available 0_o.
I've tried to be reasonable with you but it doesn't work. I don't like to be trolled. Ignore button time.
I honestly would not want to bring in counter magic vs Affinity. Probably too slow on the draw. Maybe ok on the play.
Counter-magic is hit or miss vs Eldrazi too, which is why I like playing x3 remands.
I don't think "rejection is good vs other tier 1 decks" is really an argument, because you wouldn't really want to bring in rejection in against those matchups (despite being good). The only exception I could see is Lantern because its slower.
Using cast away is an interesting concept. I may experiment with it. That could be another solution to chalice
Perhaps you haven't played much against affinity. The way Affinity beats jeskai is by top decking a power card. We usually neutralize their board but a topdecked plating, etched champion, raveger, etc. Can swing a win to a loss. Rejection is amazing against Affinity.
It's ok. "Amazing" is a strong...strong stretch. I would rather have an extra supreme verdict (which also nullifies their strongest top deck and then some).
A top decked plating or ravager won't swing the game to a loss if they are behind. The only potential top-deck card that can swing a game that much is etched champion, and only if they are not too far behind.
I have extensive experience against Affinity. Both as an ex-affinity pilot and as well as plenty of reps against the deck as a Jeski Pilot.
Against a top deck verdict does nothing. They top deck plating active blinkmoth and kill you while you sit with your verdict in hand.
You run 20+ ways to kill a blink moth (bolt, path, helix, snapcaster, celestial colonnade, spell queller). If a top deck plating + blinkmoth kills you - you are not ahead. You are behind. Very very very far behind. You may have stabilized but you are still behind. Hence my comment below
A top decked plating or ravager won't swing the game to a loss if they are behind.
I don't know what you are smoking but Collonade active and block is SIX mana.
I thought i posted the numbers... but if you play 4 rejections you have a 57% chance of seeing at least one in the first 3 turns.. etron has a 87% chance of having one of map, cavern or chalice...
That means theres an approximate 37% chance(.87 times .43) that you wont draw rejection in time... im sorry thats not a rare occurrence...
You might say i didnt include logic knot but i also didnt include relic either..
Why does UW have a good etron matchup? Because they can deal with cavern and chalice in their main deck... why does GDS have a great matchup? They have discard and kcommand for chalice and cavern is irrelevant whem they have one mana 5/5s...
It points to why jeskai has a tough time.. we dont have an answer to them resolving chalice and finding cavern... and both of them together nukes about 19 cards... and their win percentage is much higher when they resolve either than the times where we draw one or even 2 or 3 rejections...
This is why im saying counters are not where you want to be.. and this goes for dstroke also.. the problem is dealing with resolved things.. if you are depending on countering everything.. i guarantee you that you are going to have a really bad time...
More 1% arguments. "Dies to doomblade" is not a rational argument and it's the same rationale a lot of people are using here. We have access to a one mana spell that counters almost every card in 2 tier one decks and a bunch of cards in a couple other strong decks you might run into. It's one of the only solid answers to Map...yet I still see people suggesting map is a problem. You can only lead horses to water so many times before you just give up.
If some of you want to keep losing to Eldrazi Tron feel free to do so. Many of us have shifted the post-board match-up significantly and we feel very good about our chances. If you don't want to use the best cards no one will force you to.
I honestly would not want to bring in counter magic vs Affinity. Probably too slow on the draw. Maybe ok on the play.
Counter-magic is hit or miss vs Eldrazi too, which is why I like playing x3 remands.
I don't think "rejection is good vs other tier 1 decks" is really an argument, because you wouldn't really want to bring in rejection in against those matchups (despite being good). The only exception I could see is Lantern because its slower.
Using cast away is an interesting concept. I may experiment with it. That could be another solution to chalice
Perhaps you haven't played much against affinity. The way Affinity beats jeskai is by top decking a power card. We usually neutralize their board but a topdecked plating, etched champion, raveger, etc. Can swing a win to a loss. Rejection is amazing against Affinity.
It's ok. "Amazing" is a strong...strong stretch. I would rather have an extra supreme verdict (which also nullifies their strongest top deck and then some).
A top decked plating or ravager won't swing the game to a loss if they are behind. The only potential top-deck card that can swing a game that much is etched champion, and only if they are not too far behind.
I have extensive experience against Affinity. Both as an ex-affinity pilot and as well as plenty of reps against the deck as a Jeski Pilot.
Against a top deck verdict does nothing. They top deck plating active blinkmoth and kill you while you sit with your verdict in hand.
I thought i posted the numbers... but if you play 4 rejections you have a 57% chance of seeing at least one in the first 3 turns.. etron has a 87% chance of having one of map, cavern or chalice...
That means theres an approximate 37% chance(.87 times .43) that you wont draw rejection in time... im sorry thats not a rare occurrence...
You might say i didnt include logic knot but i also didnt include relic either..
Why does UW have a good etron matchup? Because they can deal with cavern and chalice in their main deck... why does GDS have a great matchup? They have discard and kcommand for chalice and cavern is irrelevant whem they have one mana 5/5s...
It points to why jeskai has a tough time.. we dont have an answer to them resolving chalice and finding cavern... and both of them together nukes about 19 cards... and their win percentage is much higher when they resolve either than the times where we draw one or even 2 or 3 rejections...
This is why im saying counters are not where you want to be.. and this goes for dstroke also.. the problem is dealing with resolved things.. if you are depending on countering everything.. i guarantee you that you are going to have a really bad time...
More 1% arguments. "Dies to doomblade" is not a rational argument and it's the same rationale a lot of people are using here. We have access to a one mana spell that counters almost every card in 2 tier one decks and a bunch of cards in a couple other strong decks you might run into. It's one of the only solid answers to Map...yet I still see people suggesting map is a problem. You can only lead horses to water so many times before you just give up.
If some of you want to keep losing to Eldrazi Tron feel free to do so. Many of us have shifted the post-board match-up significantly and we feel very good about our chances. If you don't want to use the best cards no one will force you to.
I honestly would not want to bring in counter magic vs Affinity. Probably too slow on the draw. Maybe ok on the play.
Counter-magic is hit or miss vs Eldrazi too, which is why I like playing x3 remands.
I don't think "rejection is good vs other tier 1 decks" is really an argument, because you wouldn't really want to bring in rejection in against those matchups (despite being good). The only exception I could see is Lantern because its slower.
Using cast away is an interesting concept. I may experiment with it. That could be another solution to chalice
Perhaps you haven't played much against affinity. The way Affinity beats jeskai is by top decking a power card. We usually neutralize their board but a topdecked plating, etched champion, raveger, etc. Can swing a win to a loss. Rejection is amazing against Affinity.
Could this silly discussion about "doesn't ALWAYS work" maybe stop? MtG is a game of chance, nothing ALWAYS works. Concede that Ceremoneous Rejection as your only trump against Etron is dangerous if you dont have a plan versus chalice, but also that the card is very strong if they do not resolve an early chalice. All discussion after that has just been people insisting on trying to convince others of their right. Besides, I think Etron is starting to get hated out pretty hard now
Hear hear!
I do hope E-Tron gets hated out! Firer rode that idea to a title.
For those against Rejection because of some awkwardness with cavern and chalice, fair enough. I would prefer to take the 60-70% chance that I have an answer to an early chalice (and then their whole deck) in the form of rejection, since playing through a chalice for more than one or two turns can mean the game is already over.
It would be more useful if people came up with solutions rather than problems which are already recognised... yes E-Tron plays chalice, yes, they also play Cavern. They have done for a while now and Rejection is still a card.
What do people think about including Cast Out and Detention Sphere in the sideboard? These two cards line up pretty well Vs. E-Tron given they can sweep chalices off the board, and trade 1 for 1 against Reality Smasher, not to mention Karn et. al.
I've ran Cast Out maindeck for a long-time. If you check the GP Kobe Last Chance Trial lists on Wizards website you can find my list that 5-0 with Cast Out maindeck. I was the only Jeskai player to win a last chance trial, as well.
Hello guys! I have recently started playing the deck (queller and geist version) and, testing with some friends, I had a lot of issue against BGx and more specifically against Abzan! The combination of lingering souls and Liliana definitely killed me tons of times! any advices for this matchup? thanks a lot!
Bgx matchups are very grindy, and abzsn is probably the strongest against us as they have just straight up high card quality. You want to play the long game versus them and get every bit of value out of your cards. When you sideboard, you should go lighter on burn spells, the exact number depending on how many creatures they have that die to bolt (this varies a lot between abzan lists). Burn to the face is awful versus them as it ia card diaadvantage and they often have lifegain; unless they have mana dorks, I prefer cutting bolts before helixes. You want to go lower on countermagic, but not cut all of it, as it is a strong against them but also clunky as cards like mana leak become dead topdecks and they have discard spells to play around it (but good BGx pilots should cut on discard a bit). Negate and Cryptic Command are excellent counterspells against them. Bring in your own grindy cards like planeswalkers and wraths, and be wary of their planeswalkers as a resolved Ally Gideon or Sorin is a nightmare. Lingering Souls is really rough on us; you often want to push them on playing both halves so you can kill then all at once with some kind of wrath. Also, remanding the flashback is fantastic
All good points. I'd like to add that if you expect to see these type of grindy match-ups you should run 3-4 Ancestral Visions and have something like Staticaster/Engineered Explosives in your sideboard.
I thought i posted the numbers... but if you play 4 rejections you have a 57% chance of seeing at least one in the first 3 turns.. etron has a 87% chance of having one of map, cavern or chalice...
That means theres an approximate 37% chance(.87 times .43) that you wont draw rejection in time... im sorry thats not a rare occurrence...
You might say i didnt include logic knot but i also didnt include relic either..
Why does UW have a good etron matchup? Because they can deal with cavern and chalice in their main deck... why does GDS have a great matchup? They have discard and kcommand for chalice and cavern is irrelevant whem they have one mana 5/5s...
It points to why jeskai has a tough time.. we dont have an answer to them resolving chalice and finding cavern... and both of them together nukes about 19 cards... and their win percentage is much higher when they resolve either than the times where we draw one or even 2 or 3 rejections...
This is why im saying counters are not where you want to be.. and this goes for dstroke also.. the problem is dealing with resolved things.. if you are depending on countering everything.. i guarantee you that you are going to have a really bad time...
More 1% arguments. "Dies to doomblade" is not a rational argument and it's the same rationale a lot of people are using here. We have access to a one mana spell that counters almost every card in 2 tier one decks and a bunch of cards in a couple other strong decks you might run into. It's one of the only solid answers to Map...yet I still see people suggesting map is a problem. You can only lead horses to water so many times before you just give up.
If some of you want to keep losing to Eldrazi Tron feel free to do so. Many of us have shifted the post-board match-up significantly and we feel very good about our chances. If you don't want to use the best cards no one will force you to.
We've taught this to death, but let's try one more time. Expedition Map and Chalice of the Void are VERY good against our deck. Rejection is extremely good against these card but it has the added bonus of countering all their creatures.
A common play I make is counter T1 Map and counter T3 Thought Knot Seer with flashback from snapcaster. Happens ALOT.
Card is sick.
So how do you deal with Chalice, Expedition Map and so forth when you don't have Ceremonious Rejection? Statistically, there's no way you always have it in your opening hand against them after game 1.
I never said always. They also don't always have T1 map and I have other counters online for T2 if I don't have rejection. Also 4 Serum visions to find stuff on T1.
Gideon of the trials doesn't fit well. The plan for Nahiri is keep the board relatively clear, land a Nahiri and tick up, secondary plan is use Nahiri as removal in grindy matchups and let cards like AV get you ahead in card advantage.
Thanks for the response, TappingStones. Couldn't Gideon act as a removal spell of sorts with his +1? It would also give the deck utility from the +0 emblem, and the +0 beatdown fits well with a back-up plan of burn + snap + attack step.
I'm eventually going to give it a test when I get my copies of Nahiri, the Harbinger. Do you or anybody have any insight as to which part of the meta Gideon of the Trials is strong or weak against at the moment? A cross section of the two walkers strengths and weaknesses would help me get a better idea of how a trial set-up might look!
Open question to the forum as well of course!
I don't think the gideon emblem has much value in our deck. The idea is to use removal or counters on T3 and then stick nahiri. I think Gideon deviates from the plan enough to make the deck quite a bit weaker. But I wish you luck in testing it for yourself.
A little late but I've been sick, short report on my run at MKM. All in all it went... fine. I got a lot of bad beats with harsh matchups and some ungodly poor luck, ending at 6-3 winning nothing but the flu
Thanks for the report, Bearscape, it was a good read! 6-3 with some valuable lessons in there! Didn't you used to run Staticaster?
Have you or anybody else for that matter run Gideon of the Trials in a Nahiri list, and if so, what are their experiences with it?
Gideon of the trials doesn't fit well. The plan for Nahiri is keep the board relatively clear, land a Nahiri and tick up, secondary plan is use Nahiri as removal in grindy matchups and let cards like AV get you ahead in card advantage.
so is variance and luck what you depend on? that's what you're saying... why aren't your 4-ofs, 3-ofs in your deck if you truly feel that way?
I don't depend on anything. I was just pointing out how wrong your logic was. Also, you keep making logical fallacies. You keep saying that Map is good against Rejection. Rejection is there to counter map and chalice. How exactly are you countering T2 chalice on the play?
apell snare
YOu can counter Map with Spell Snare? JUUUUDDDGGGGEEEE = p
talking about chalice t2 on the play don't know what are u talking about
We were talking about Ceremonious rejection and the fact that it stops map and chalice. Spell Snare is an unreliable answer to EldraziTron. It might make the cut post-sideboard depending on your list but it's often rotting in hand. I usually keep it in because Walking Ballista for 1 is a real play the deck sometimes maes and the off chance to hit Chalice on 1 is usually better than some other spell in my deck.
That's not a statistical fact. You are talking about some long-term probability. I can draw my three of more than you draw your four of over thousands of games and still be within a perfectly normal statistical distribution.
so is variance and luck what you depend on? that's what you're saying... why aren't your 4-ofs, 3-ofs in your deck if you truly feel that way?
I don't depend on anything. I was just pointing out how wrong your logic was. Also, you keep making logical fallacies. You keep saying that Map is good against Rejection. Rejection is there to counter map and chalice. How exactly are you countering T2 chalice on the play?
apell snare
YOu can counter Map with Spell Snare? JUUUUDDDGGGGEEEE = p
We've taught this to death, but let's try one more time. Expedition Map and Chalice of the Void are VERY good against our deck. Rejection is extremely good against these card but it has the added bonus of countering all their creatures.
A common play I make is counter T1 Map and counter T3 Thought Knot Seer with flashback from snapcaster. Happens ALOT.
That's not a statistical fact. You are talking about some long-term probability. I can draw my three of more than you draw your four of over thousands of games and still be within a perfectly normal statistical distribution.
so is variance and luck what you depend on? that's what you're saying... why aren't your 4-ofs, 3-ofs in your deck if you truly feel that way?
I don't depend on anything. I was just pointing out how wrong your logic was. Also, you keep making logical fallacies. You keep saying that Map is good against Rejection. Rejection is there to counter map and chalice. How exactly are you countering T2 chalice on the play?
I've tried to be reasonable with you but it doesn't work. I don't like to be trolled. Ignore button time.
I don't know what you are smoking but Collonade active and block is SIX mana.
Against a top deck verdict does nothing. They top deck plating active blinkmoth and kill you while you sit with your verdict in hand.
Perhaps you haven't played much against affinity. The way Affinity beats jeskai is by top decking a power card. We usually neutralize their board but a topdecked plating, etched champion, raveger, etc. Can swing a win to a loss. Rejection is amazing against Affinity.
I've ran Cast Out maindeck for a long-time. If you check the GP Kobe Last Chance Trial lists on Wizards website you can find my list that 5-0 with Cast Out maindeck. I was the only Jeskai player to win a last chance trial, as well.
All good points. I'd like to add that if you expect to see these type of grindy match-ups you should run 3-4 Ancestral Visions and have something like Staticaster/Engineered Explosives in your sideboard.
More 1% arguments. "Dies to doomblade" is not a rational argument and it's the same rationale a lot of people are using here. We have access to a one mana spell that counters almost every card in 2 tier one decks and a bunch of cards in a couple other strong decks you might run into. It's one of the only solid answers to Map...yet I still see people suggesting map is a problem. You can only lead horses to water so many times before you just give up.
If some of you want to keep losing to Eldrazi Tron feel free to do so. Many of us have shifted the post-board match-up significantly and we feel very good about our chances. If you don't want to use the best cards no one will force you to.
I don't think the gideon emblem has much value in our deck. The idea is to use removal or counters on T3 and then stick nahiri. I think Gideon deviates from the plan enough to make the deck quite a bit weaker. But I wish you luck in testing it for yourself.
Gideon of the trials doesn't fit well. The plan for Nahiri is keep the board relatively clear, land a Nahiri and tick up, secondary plan is use Nahiri as removal in grindy matchups and let cards like AV get you ahead in card advantage.
We were talking about Ceremonious rejection and the fact that it stops map and chalice. Spell Snare is an unreliable answer to EldraziTron. It might make the cut post-sideboard depending on your list but it's often rotting in hand. I usually keep it in because Walking Ballista for 1 is a real play the deck sometimes maes and the off chance to hit Chalice on 1 is usually better than some other spell in my deck.
YOu can counter Map with Spell Snare? JUUUUDDDGGGGEEEE = p
A common play I make is counter T1 Map and counter T3 Thought Knot Seer with flashback from snapcaster. Happens ALOT.
Card is sick.
I don't depend on anything. I was just pointing out how wrong your logic was. Also, you keep making logical fallacies. You keep saying that Map is good against Rejection. Rejection is there to counter map and chalice. How exactly are you countering T2 chalice on the play?
Stoney Silence is about a 3.5 (of ten) against Eldrazi Tron and Rejection is a 9. It's not close at all.