MTG Salvation

Welp, I disregarded my own better judgement and decided to check in late Sunday to see if my LGS had any boxes following pre-release. They did and I caved. I'll list the notable pulls, but long story short is I find it highly unlikely that stores will be able to continue selling packs/boxes at the going rate once the set is officially released. Considering pre-release was essentially a "soft launch" in that boxes could actually be sold early, allowing a higher than normal supply to enter the market before official release, prices are trending down despite there being actual supply of singles. Granted, all it would take is one or two cards finding their way into a solid T1 deck or $1-$2 rares to find homes to raise the value of a box, but I'd just caution anyone about pulling the trigger on any non-foil until some trends emerge. I rarely crack packs, but I've always enjoyed picking up a box of each Masters set and MH1 feels like a spiritual successor. Anyway, here we go:

• Urza, Lord High Artificer
  
• Waterlogged grove
  
• Waterlogged grove (foil)
  
• sword of sinew and steel
  
• serra the benevolent
  
• force of negation
  
• the first sliver
  
• nurturing peatland
  
• ice-fang coaTL
  
• Unsettled mariner
  
• spiteful sliver x2
  
• unbound flourishing
  
• collector ouphe
  
• giver of runes

+ handful foil tokens, X rares currently <$3, solid stack of sweet slivers, & 5-6 uncommons I'll use in EDH

Solid box in terms of personal and entertainment value; Urza + sliver were both on my list of singles to eventually pick up for edh and a foil canopy land was pretty killer. If I opened this box without knowing what it cost, I'd say it was a fantastic above average box. And while I normally don't expect to get more value out of a box vs retail cost, this seemed like one which probably came close. I'm just curious to see where the market is at two weeks from now as supply/demand suggests single prices won't magically spike once more supply is available to the masses.

Tl;Dr: Wasn't thrilled about the set after spoilers, but picked up a box and had a good time. Lucked out finding a foil horizon land + quite a few cards I planned on picking up as singles (albeit mostly for edh). However, the odds of your foil rare being a horizon land are slim and I'm skeptical of the market's ability to sustain single prices enough to keep boxes/boosters propped up at their current price points.

Quote from tronix »

Quote from Lord Seth »

Am I the only one who, when looking at this set, think "man, I really wish this was a Standard set"?

not really. it has a lot of cool stuff going on, and the complexity with all the mechanics showing up is nice. however gotta remember that we see these things as long-time enfranchised players. people playing standard, many of which are new and or are from arena, wouldnt get the references or the same sense of nostalgia. the set is very time spiral-esque, but there is a reason that wizards considered time spiral a failure on their part.

i do wish it costed as much as a standard set. the arbitrary price hike was absurd from the start, and nothing ive seen spoiled has changed that opinion.

But every pack comes with a full-art snow basic...

Quote from IamSpeck »

The set is legal in Modern, not made for modern.

Yikes. Somebody should've told that to the shmuck who came up with the set name.

Quote from Buffsam89 »

It would be ignorant of anyone to expect this set to strictly cater to the Modern meta, as you’d severely neuter its marketing potential. Which, in turn would raise the prices of any card deemed “worthy” for modern. People should really start thinking, instead of just reacting.

If it was marketability they were after, putting 'Modern' into the title probably wasn't the best choice. Is it ignorant to think yearly Commander products strictly cater to EDH?

Wotc's design template & notes for MH were leaked...

1. 15% Pre-8th ed reprints [make sure none will noticeably impact the format]
2. 5% Snow permanents
3. 15% Draft chaff
4. 15% Cards that will probably make an immediate impact [remember: no reprints]
5. 25% Imitations of cards we should just reprint, but won't
[Easier to just think of everything like: Magus of the [insert either name of card that should've been reprinted, iconic spell, bears]*

6. 25% Whatever ***** you want in EDH [Go nuts. Bonus points for anything bear-related]

*Try to make these so they serve the same purpose as the card they imitate, however, no biggie if they don't. It's not like we're marketing this thing as a Modern set or anthi...wait, what?

Quote from fluxje »

Quote from endgame1331 »

That feel when the most recent standard set has more modern impact then a set called "Modern" Horizons. The reason they gave is complete horse crap too. "We didn't want the reprints to outshine the new cards." Here's a thought, PRINT BETTER NEW CARDS. To think the card counterspell would even have any kind of sizable impact on modern is out and out laughable. If COUNTERSPELL is outshining the new cards in a set designed for eternal formats (Commander, modern, and legacy), then there is something fundamentally flawed with the sets design. We're 90+ cards into spoiler season and the cards you have good lands, two to three cards that might, MIGHT warrant testing, a bunch of sideboard cards, and chaff. It's not even interesting chaff. I wasn't expecting modern welcoming legacy staples and power-creep up the yin-yang like some people seemed to want, but I was expecting more innovation then dime-store bootlegs of legacy staples, random reprints of cards past there prime, Joke cards that feel more at home in an un-set, and snow (Who the heck wanted snow as a returning mechanic?)

I'm an older player. I've played this game close to twelve years, have legacy, modern and commander decks, and enjoy fun complicated draft formats. I was honestly excited to play with modern horizons cards because it felt like a set designed for someone like me. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and them to reveal more interesting cards for draft, more powerful cards for modern and legacy, and commander cards that are actually fun in a multiplayer setting and not oh that's a cool commander, but if you can say "We didn't want the reprints to outshine the new cards." with a straight face when talking about counterspell, freaking counterspell, then I'm beginning to realize it's never going to. I do sincerely hope I'm wrong, but currently this set feels like a joke with us as the punchline and the canopy lands as the cash grab. Not. A. Fan.

Stop being so melodramatic.
Modern Horizons has given plenty of cards already that are VERY playable in modern and will have impact.
Just because you do not get the EXACT card you want, doesnt mean the entire set is doomed to fail.
They gave Flusterstorm to modern, put prohibit in and just printed a 'fixed' Force of Will for modern. You have 'only' played for 13 years, meaning you have no idea how repressive counterspell can be on a format.

How is that a melodramatic take? I didn't want counterspell in the set, but I too think the spoilers have been underwhelming thus far. Wotc hyped up the set, emphasizing the point that it's a set for Modern players and includes new/existing cards that will help bolster fledgling archetypes and more or less stabilize the format. Based on what we've seen thus far, the only inclusions that seem likely to make an impact across the board is the horizon land cycle. Otherwise the first half of the set looks like an EDH wet dream with campy nods to old cards and un-tested variations of existing cards that R&D hope will function similar to the card being imitated. Just give us the goddamn original and reprint it into the format. All of these imitation cards with intended-functions are just unknown variables which are as likely to succeed as they are to fail. If the main priority was format health wotc would've just reprinted the cards they have concrete data on rather than taking a shot in the dark hoping their imitations will serve the same purpose. I'm digging the sliver love and bolstering of goblin tribal, but then they waste x slots attempting to make bear tribal a thing and it makes one wonder just what the hell they're trying to do here.

True, but it's a relevant thing to keep in mind as many folks think of these type of premium sets as a limited time only deal. Nobody said cards will be dirt cheap, but they'll be cheaper than they would be had they been coming from a Modern Masters set.

Quote from Aegraen »

Quote from Snowflakes »

Quote from ktkenshinx »

The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.

1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.

2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.

3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.

It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.

I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.

Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.

I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.

Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.

Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.

Bingo; spot on. I'll gladly rescind my salt and applaud wotc for the mind **** if the second half of spoilers is chock full of gems that actually address gaps in the format.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Quote from Joban8 »

You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.

Quote from cfusionpm »

I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?

It's very easy for players to criticize Wizards' understanding of the format if we focus on misses without context. I prefer to look at the big picture since 2016.

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why it's taken me this long to seriously wonder if wotc knows just what the hell they're doing when it comes to Modern. I haven't been happy with every decision they've made regarding the format over the years and I've criticized them when I felt it was warranted, but in the end I always assumed there were people onboard who likely know infinitely more about the format than I keeping tabs and monitoring the overall state of modern. The majority of aforementioned decisions pertain to the B&R list. I've deferred back to the "too powerful for Standard" rhetoric whenever I'm frustrated about the format lacking certain answer cards or color representation.

Despite having an overall unfavorable opinion of wotc/R&D the last 10 years, I was excited when MH was announced, because I assumed they would finally be able to improve the format through direct intervention now that the red tape and excuses were gone. Maybe we'll get some rock solid reprints in the second half and the set ends up being a great thing for Modern. However, if all we get in the end are some lands, slivers, and ******* bear tribal then that'll be straw that breaks the camel's back and I'll no longer be able to suspend my disbelief. The thing is they didn't have to make a direct to Modern set. Hell, even if they did they didn't have to put 'Modern' in the name and market it to the players of that format. But they did. And if EDH fodder along with a handful of immediately-relevant lands & cheeky tribal bull***** is what they think Modern NEEDS, I think those people need to be fired yesterday. I can see investor-related concerns contributing to a mindset of hedging bets by including a few EDH goodies, but you still need to deliver on the set's namesake. Frankly speaking, missing the mark by a mile is flat out embarrassing for a set that was hyped and promoted as something "powerful" that would shake up the format.

Regardless, after each day of spoilers its becoming more clear just how much time was spent on MH compared to recent standard sets. I know standard is the bread and butter, especially now with Arena taking off, but Modern is exponentially more complex due to the sheer amount of possibilities and it just feels like instead of taking the time to dig deep and design a set aimed at balancing out the meta, color pies, certain strats, etc they thought they'd be able to get away with skipping the time commitment by including cute nods to older cards and other surface level bull*****. It's like when you were a kid at christmas and your Grandma knew you loved playing games on your gameboy, so she went and got you Roller Coaster Tycoon for PC. It seems like there's mutual understanding on the surface, but that's the extent of it.

Assuming the second half of spoilers are as mediocre as the first, I think we'll have to seriously question wotc's understanding of the format and how that affects B&R decisions or rule changes. I'm cautiously optimistic that the second half of spoilers can redeem the set and make it the game changer most players expected once learning it'd be the first to bypass standard. However, that second half needs to have multiple impact reprints for that to happen imo. You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.

Quote from tronix »

Quote from Geonova »

I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.

It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.

yeah the bolded part is really what i find bothering.

i mean i get that we as onlookers would be predisposed to focus on reprints when theorycrafting what the set might look like or contain (ie its much harder to envision cards that dont exist). however i still expected more influential, or at least iconic reprints, to be mixed in. plenty of cards yet to be spoiled, but what has been shown so far is considerably...different than what i was expecting. like where are the cards such as vindicate, deed, wild growth, fire/ice, sterling grove, quirion ranger, etc (would have included counterspell in that list)?

i do think some of the newly designed cards, and even the remakes are powerful enough to see play thus impacting the format somewhat. its just off-putting to not see the reprint inclusions that i think many would have rated as clear winners (without being absurdly warping).

lets just say ill be less than pleased if it ends up where most/all of those cards dont show up and instead we get a meme bear tribal and ninja support. not to say that stuff shouldnt exist, rather that there is a time and a place for those things. the FIRST AND ONLY product that can bypass standard into modern might be better served with you know...getting relevant cards into the modern format.

You perfectly articulated my thoughts on the set. Being the first set to bypass standard into modern, the way it was marketed by the mothership, and the name itself made players think they would be getting a set designed to fill some gaps in the format and maybe a few cool new cards to boot. I don't want to jump the gun and crucify the set when only ~50% has been spoiled, but the back half will need to carry the first if wotc wants this set to be anything more than sweet EDH fodder plus a modern-relevant land cycle. If the remaining spoilers contain the same level of mediocrity then I'm clueless as to what R&D thought they would achieve with this project. The only explanation that makes some sort of sense to me is that maybe WotC thought they'd be killing legacy if modern were given access to staple reprints.

What makes it even more baffling is the fact that by going down the route of just 15% reprints, you make the set exponentially more difficult/expensive to produce due to increased R&D, labor, time, etc and end up taking a much larger risk as you're hoping your set of predominately brand new cards has an actual positive impact on a format with an already diverse card pool containing millions of interactions. Chalk it up to overconfidence, ignorance, or apathy; either way, it's not a good look and suggests a significant lack of understanding regarding the format as a whole. You'd think that the people who are allegedly monitoring format health would know a thing or two about the modern infrastructure and which existing cards, that they can extrapolate data from b/c they exist, could be introduced into the format to remedy things they may perceive as degenerate, balance the color pie, aid bottom tier archetypes, etc.

To reiterate my overall outlook on the set, I'm cautiously optimistic about the second half and don't want to jump the gun. However, a second half which mirrors the first would make this set a complete flop in my view or at least in terms of what it was marketed to be. Maybe R&D assumed functional variants of legacy staples would serve the same purpose as reprints, but at this point in time it looks like that kind of thinking and lack of established reprints will be the two notable failures should MH ultimately miss the mark.

By the way, right now Jund isn’t even a competitive Magic deck.

If I'm going to prioritize a main deck card, I would prefer Veto or Pierce. I think both of those are better and more versatile than Force. Seems fine in the side, but far from "modern's saving grace on a pedestal" that people make it out to be. I didn't realize that was so damn controversial.

Let’s keep it at facts. Facts say that Dovin’s Veto is the less versatile between the cards you mentioned, cause it has a fringe application only against Ux based strategies. You know what stops people from doing unfair things in Modern? A cc 0 Force of Negation.

Quote from The Fluff »

WoTC reprinted Leyline of the Void. Could this mean they want Hogaak to stay in modern?

No. A reprint of LotV was desirable with or without Hogaak.

Quote from cfusionpm »

They have long since shown they are OK with the level of graveyard abuse, and do not see any current decks as a problem. They will likely hand-waive off Hogaak, just like they do Neoform. Unless it takes like 4+ Top 8 slots in back to back to back GPs thanks to London Mulligan, then maybe they might pretend like they care about all the fast combos and GY abuse. They'll share some stern words, and tell us "help is on the way in upcoming sets!" Meanwhile innocuous, fair, and considerably less powerful cards continue to rot on the banned list.

Neoform has 1 appearance in the last two MTGO Challenge top 32s, so it is not comparable with Hogaak. It is not safe to assume that WotC is OK with a lot of graveyard.

Quote from WotC on banning GGT »

Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.

This thread became unreadable. Again.

yeah, i'm not looking at them as investments, I just want to be wise economically, and I dont think they are $20 cards, but $10? I can see it. Now if they drop to $5? I'm getting a lot.

You can always arrange casual play with friends, but this is a game aka a competition. The idea that people should not want to win to satisfy your sensibilities is foolish.

Shhhh FCG. I want it to hit $10.

I think Horizon lands are amazing.

I learned this many years ago when our local Pro Player (pure Control player) used to run Kithkin at FNM (just to prove that he can beat scrubs with anything, not just Control). He always ran 4 Horizon Canopy, which I questioned at first. Then I quickly realized it just gives more options with very little drawback.

Quote from idSurge »

Horizon lands keep dropping. What do people think is the bottom there?

Color dependent but I think they're more useful than the fast lands (blooming marsh etc) for any deck than wants to have a game plan post t4 and has an average cmc of 2-3. That's a pretty wide array of decks and I'd be surprised if they don't eventually sit higher than that cycle in time (personal opinion).

Bottom price is very dependent on if any more cards from MH1 end up like the new bridgevine cards where significant chunks of EV start to shift around the box. I can't really say but I'll be picking up two of each for $10-15, sub 10 and I'm biting on a playset.

Even after an expodition and a reprint horizon canopy still had a pretty high price tag. Granted it was the only one but some of these color combos have notoriously run low cmc curves (UR for example) where you would even fit from the drawing.

I think GB is weird to try and gauge because the color combo has gotten a significant shot in the arm recently with CA (tireless tracker, courser of kruphix, arguel's blood fast, glint-sleeve siphoner). Wotc seems to be throwing a solid piece of CA at these colors for the past few years and I'm not sure it's going to slow down (explore mechanic and the current green walkers in standard).

Quote from BlazingRagnarok »

Wing Shards is going to build storm count against Boggles, Infect, and Death's Shadow. All three decks cast spells before combat or before connecting in combat.

I don't think that any of those decks need a Storm count for Wing Shards, though. If Bogles has more creatures than Auras, you should already be winning. For Infect, similar thing, they don't usually attack with more than 1 creature, especially with Hierarch out. For Shadow, if they cast anything precombat, it's going to be a Thoughtseize/IoK, and they just take the Shards anyways. Except for special cases where the Bogle player diversifies their threats for some reason, or the Infect player swings with a bunch of Glistener Elves/Inkmoths, or the Shadow player deploys a threat precombat (?!) or casts a Thought Scour at sorcery speed (?!), I don't think Wing Shards lines up particularly well against any of those, at least not moreso than Blessed Alliance would in those same circumstances.