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  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Ah, yeah it'll definitely be a pickle if the second half of spoilers doesn't deliver. IIRC, Horizon Canopy dropped down to a solid 20-25 throughout the time IMA was in print. That would seem to suggest that 5 Horizon lands spread out among a set without a definite print run cutoff should drop even lower while MH is in print. Assuming that's the scenario where MH ends up being EDH fluff + horizon lands and five other modern-relevant cards, I still think the average price of all 5 lands will be +/- $15, but 1 or 2 of the most sought after will command a premium over the lesser 3-4.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Quote from Aegraen »
    Quote from Snowflakes »
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.

    1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.

    2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.

    3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.


    It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.

    I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.

    Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.

    I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.


    Most of the people bitching are bitching because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.

    Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.


    Bingo; spot on. I'll gladly rescind my salt and applaud wotc for the mind **** if the second half of spoilers is chock full of gems that actually address gaps in the format.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Compared to a baller ass set that gets opened a ton, a similar set with just a handful of in-demand cards will see its single prices spike higher and stay there longer. Aside from not wanting a good set b/c the cards would be expensive just being a ridiculous line of reasoning in itself, a popular/in-demand set gets opened more (especially when it's print to demand) which means more supply entering the market and less price gouging down the line. It took FIVE YEARS for the KTK fetches to finally start creeping up in price, b/c KTK was printed to demand and demand was bonkers. If the second half of MH turns out to be no better than the first, those Horizon lands will end up costing you much more than they would've if MH hype continued throughout spoiler season into release. It won't be as bad as Hour of Devastation getting its run cut early type situation, but $7/pack and a lukewarm response from the players its geared to certainly won't help when it comes to getting more singles out into the market.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    Quote from Joban8 »
    You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.
    Quote from cfusionpm »

    I have literally been saying this for years, and constantly mocked for it. But time and time again, they show that their understanding of the format is embarrassingly thin and almost entirely dictated by spreadsheets and data sets of names. There is no deep and fundamental understanding of the actual format meta or how the decks interact with each other, outside of the absolute most basic, surface level observations. Is this set what it finally takes for others to see that?

    It's very easy for players to criticize Wizards' understanding of the format if we focus on misses without context. I prefer to look at the big picture since 2016.


    I wholeheartedly agree, which is why it's taken me this long to seriously wonder if wotc knows just what the hell they're doing when it comes to Modern. I haven't been happy with every decision they've made regarding the format over the years and I've criticized them when I felt it was warranted, but in the end I always assumed there were people onboard who likely know infinitely more about the format than I keeping tabs and monitoring the overall state of modern. The majority of aforementioned decisions pertain to the B&R list. I've deferred back to the "too powerful for Standard" rhetoric whenever I'm frustrated about the format lacking certain answer cards or color representation.

    Despite having an overall unfavorable opinion of wotc/R&D the last 10 years, I was excited when MH was announced, because I assumed they would finally be able to improve the format through direct intervention now that the red tape and excuses were gone. Maybe we'll get some rock solid reprints in the second half and the set ends up being a great thing for Modern. However, if all we get in the end are some lands, slivers, and ******* bear tribal then that'll be straw that breaks the camel's back and I'll no longer be able to suspend my disbelief. The thing is they didn't have to make a direct to Modern set. Hell, even if they did they didn't have to put 'Modern' in the name and market it to the players of that format. But they did. And if EDH fodder along with a handful of immediately-relevant lands & cheeky tribal bull***** is what they think Modern NEEDS, I think those people need to be fired yesterday. I can see investor-related concerns contributing to a mindset of hedging bets by including a few EDH goodies, but you still need to deliver on the set's namesake. Frankly speaking, missing the mark by a mile is flat out embarrassing for a set that was hyped and promoted as something "powerful" that would shake up the format.

    Regardless, after each day of spoilers its becoming more clear just how much time was spent on MH compared to recent standard sets. I know standard is the bread and butter, especially now with Arena taking off, but Modern is exponentially more complex due to the sheer amount of possibilities and it just feels like instead of taking the time to dig deep and design a set aimed at balancing out the meta, color pies, certain strats, etc they thought they'd be able to get away with skipping the time commitment by including cute nods to older cards and other surface level bull*****. It's like when you were a kid at christmas and your Grandma knew you loved playing games on your gameboy, so she went and got you Roller Coaster Tycoon for PC. It seems like there's mutual understanding on the surface, but that's the extent of it.

    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] Modern Slivers
    MH spoilers have been terribly underwhelming thus far, but I'm excited there's the silver lining of new slivers; plus they actually look like slivers and not those M14 abominations. Idk if it was already discussed, but imo one of the most exciting non-sliver slivers to get spoiled thus far is Changeling Outcast; one drop unblockable "sliver" that can end games very quick w/ a Virulent Sliver + lords and/or pump spells. Speaking of pump spells, throw another spoiled MH inclusion, Scale Up, into that mix and you're looking at a chance for T3 kills.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    As in 20-25 for a play set? If so, I'd take that deal. If its 20-25 each card then I'd personally hold off. MH being print to demand is the main reason why I'll likely wait a while to mine up. However, I've started to rethink that stance now that we're halfway through spoiler season and those lands are honestly the only modern-relevant cards I'm excited about.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Assuming the second half of spoilers are as mediocre as the first, I think we'll have to seriously question wotc's understanding of the format and how that affects B&R decisions or rule changes. I'm cautiously optimistic that the second half of spoilers can redeem the set and make it the game changer most players expected once learning it'd be the first to bypass standard. However, that second half needs to have multiple impact reprints for that to happen imo. You'd think that the same people who allegedly monitor format health would have an expert understanding of the modern infrastructure and which existing cards would be most efficacious when it comes to filling in gaps, balancing the color pie, bolstering lower tier archetypes, etc were they ever reprinted into modern. Instead of utilizing those existing cards, which have concrete data, and opting to make MH a majority compilation of brand new unknown variables is a sign of either ignorance or ineptitude, in my eyes. I won't damn the set until everything is laid out on the table, but I'm going to have some serious trust issues come June 14 if all we have is a set with sweet EDH toys and one solid land cycle.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Quote from tronix »
    Quote from Geonova »
    I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.

    It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
    yeah the bolded part is really what i find bothering.

    i mean i get that we as onlookers would be predisposed to focus on reprints when theorycrafting what the set might look like or contain (ie its much harder to envision cards that dont exist). however i still expected more influential, or at least iconic reprints, to be mixed in. plenty of cards yet to be spoiled, but what has been shown so far is considerably...different than what i was expecting. like where are the cards such as vindicate, deed, wild growth, fire/ice, sterling grove, quirion ranger, etc (would have included counterspell in that list)?

    i do think some of the newly designed cards, and even the remakes are powerful enough to see play thus impacting the format somewhat. its just off-putting to not see the reprint inclusions that i think many would have rated as clear winners (without being absurdly warping).

    lets just say ill be less than pleased if it ends up where most/all of those cards dont show up and instead we get a meme bear tribal and ninja support. not to say that stuff shouldnt exist, rather that there is a time and a place for those things. the FIRST AND ONLY product that can bypass standard into modern might be better served with you know...getting relevant cards into the modern format.


    You perfectly articulated my thoughts on the set. Being the first set to bypass standard into modern, the way it was marketed by the mothership, and the name itself made players think they would be getting a set designed to fill some gaps in the format and maybe a few cool new cards to boot. I don't want to jump the gun and crucify the set when only ~50% has been spoiled, but the back half will need to carry the first if wotc wants this set to be anything more than sweet EDH fodder plus a modern-relevant land cycle. If the remaining spoilers contain the same level of mediocrity then I'm clueless as to what R&D thought they would achieve with this project. The only explanation that makes some sort of sense to me is that maybe WotC thought they'd be killing legacy if modern were given access to staple reprints.

    What makes it even more baffling is the fact that by going down the route of just 15% reprints, you make the set exponentially more difficult/expensive to produce due to increased R&D, labor, time, etc and end up taking a much larger risk as you're hoping your set of predominately brand new cards has an actual positive impact on a format with an already diverse card pool containing millions of interactions. Chalk it up to overconfidence, ignorance, or apathy; either way, it's not a good look and suggests a significant lack of understanding regarding the format as a whole. You'd think that the people who are allegedly monitoring format health would know a thing or two about the modern infrastructure and which existing cards, that they can extrapolate data from b/c they exist, could be introduced into the format to remedy things they may perceive as degenerate, balance the color pie, aid bottom tier archetypes, etc.

    To reiterate my overall outlook on the set, I'm cautiously optimistic about the second half and don't want to jump the gun. However, a second half which mirrors the first would make this set a complete flop in my view or at least in terms of what it was marketed to be. Maybe R&D assumed functional variants of legacy staples would serve the same purpose as reprints, but at this point in time it looks like that kind of thinking and lack of established reprints will be the two notable failures should MH ultimately miss the mark.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [Primer] G/W Auras (Bogle)
    No doubt; that pump spell is bonkers. I suppose we'll have to wait and see where the chips fall; I think I was just expecting more actual reprints entering the format rather than unproven experiments. Either way, you're absolutely correct in saying wotc has little incentive to specifically give bogles a bump. That's why I never expected MH to give us some bomb aura or a third 1-drop hexproofer, rather, I was hoping we'd indirectly benefit from the addition of some enchantments-matter cards or some kind of card filtering effect in our colors. The deck is pretty solid as-is as far as auras go, but getting something like a sylvan lib, practical card filtering, or 1 cmc aura/enchant tutor would go a long way helping us grind out a few more percentage points when it comes to consistency.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Quote from Quamobrem »
    What's everyone still hoping for? Me, it's Counterspell and some more zombies (Carrion Feeder would be a great reprint, but I'm up for anything).


    Counterspell would be great, but I'm not as sure as I was before spoilers started rolling in. I'd still be happy with getting just one of any of the following: Sylvan Library, Sterling Grove, Enlightened Tutor (or some "legacy-lite" new version for Modern), Containment Priest, legacy-lite version of Replenish, etc.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [Primer] G/W Auras (Bogle)
    Yeah, we've gotten zero love from these initial spoilers. Good news is there's still ~3/4 of the set left to be spoiled, so I'm still hoping WotC throws us a bone. IMO the majority of spoilers thus far have been pretty mediocre and seemingly more geared toward EDH, so maybe we'll start seeing some Modern bombs being dropped in the next few days of spoilers. The Horizon land cycle is relevant to almost every major Modern archetype and will provide them with some sort of boost, so it's just unfortunate that our deck already takes advantage of the original : | Oh well, silver lining is the price of Canopies should start dropping for anyone who still needs some!
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Aside from filling out the horizon canopy cycle, the most exciting thing for me so far has been the reveal that slivers actually look like slivers again rather than those M14 Predator abominations. Lots of set left to reveal, but the vibes I'm getting from what we've gotten thus far tells me not to hold my breath for Counterspell entering Modern anytime soon. Still hoping we'll end up getting some solid reprints added to the format (e.g. containment priest, sylvan library, sterling grove, etc).
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
    It's mainly just the extra blast zones running around that hurt the idea of dropping 2x quick Shadows. It's not an awful matchup. But take a look on mtggoldfish, a lot of the top lists right now are matches you'd want to dodge or not feel great seeing.



    I'm extremely disappointed with Horizon spoilers thus far, midrange is getting absolutely nothing so far. And no, the Force cycle for black is not some auto include. The Horizon lands are more detrimental to us than of help.

    At this point if there's not some fixed and powerful version of DRS, Hym or Sylvan Library this is looking to be a major disappointment. Extra removal isn't what we need either.


    These are close to my own thoughts on the set thus far. Personally, I think the expansion of the horizon canopy cycle and potential for competitive tribal slivers are intriguing additions to the format, but everything else thus far hasn't come close to meeting the expectations I had for this set. I imagined less "legacy-lite" creations and something more along the lines of steady impact reprints (e.g. Counterspell, Sylvan Library, Sterling Grove, Containment Priest, etc). However, roughly 2/3 of the set has yet to be revealed, so I'm still cautiously optimistic.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from M1sgu1ded1 »
    Wow, I haven't been watching the prices for Urza, but I'm planning on playing him (glad I snagged a playset of sword and foundry yesterday). Just saw that the preorders are going for 80 a pop. Hopefully this is a big enough print run to bring that price down, at least to the 40's. Anyone have any thoughts? I rarely buy cards I won't use, so speccing and snagging good deals isn't something I normally do.


    Urza is an instant EDH powerhouse. However, I'd be stunned to see him hold onto that kind of a price tag throughout the duration of MH's print cycle. The supply bottleneck will almost surely keep his price lofty early on, but we have confirmation that Horizons is a print to demand set. There will be plenty of product opened to satiate the EDH demand and by the time MH goes out of print, Urza will be a $15 card IMO. Although the MH spoilers have been underwhelming compared to what some people were hoping for out of the set, the Horizon Canopy cycle lands themselves could probably keep a mediocre set afloat throughout its print life. There's still about 2/3 of the set left to reveal, so I doubt there will be any issues with lack of demand once its all on the table. Speccing on anything in this set is probably a losing battle; it's going to be those existing cards that either get better or become relevant due to MH that you'd want to keep an eye on, sword & foundry that you mention are great examples.

    On another note, one thing thats got me excited about MH are these slivers getting spoiled. If Modern Slivers becomes a competitive archetype following the MH release, I'll be a happy camper. However, I'm kicking myself hard for listing a Sliver Queen on eBay just last night...of course they're selling for 30%+ more than they were this time yesterday.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Based on the MH spoilers thus far I think it's unlikely that we end up getting Counterspell added to the format. Still many cards yet to be revealed, but that's the vibe I'm getting from these new cards which generally seem to be worse versions of existing cards.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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