@Spiderspace, I'm running a standard mana curve with four drops. I meant a low cmc build would lose tempo with 21 lands and oath. Rereading my post, I can see how it's easy to get confused. My experience with oath and 21 lands was with a low to the ground build. It was not successful.
A set of canopys is the correct number. With 23 lands and four mana dorks, they'll (collectovely) be tapped for mana perhaps twice over the course of the game before being cracked for draw. That typically happens when you have your fifth mana available which is practically guaranteed in any kind of grindy matchup. I've lost more games by being a card behind than a life or two behind.
Four copies of stirring wildwood among 23 lands allows for very consistent land drops and acts as terrific insurance against flood.
This gives extremely strong topdecks (~30-33 creatures and 4 draw cards) in a grindy meta while enabling you to consistently make land drops. 13 untapped green sources mean that you have a 92% of being able to cast a first turn hierarch.
My experience with oath is that you would need to use it to dig for lands early on when running 21
This wouldn't be bad in a blue deck which doesn't depend on tempo but stinks for us. This isn't to say that oath is bad but I don't think it has a home in a low to the ground build. This is my opinion and it's worth everything you payed for it.
@Darktutot, early arbiter and land destruction is powerful for any variant and more so for GW but it's not always in the cards. I find big Thalia to be too vulnerable to bolts to be playable at the moment.
@charonsobol, I've done that with 4 hierarchs and four oaths. I run 23 lands with four hierarchs now. 21 lands is just too few. The topdeck difference is negligible but the lost tempo from casting oath is significant.
@Tdog, I played a two drop centric list during grixis summer and it was competitive but not a great list. Times have changed and it might be better now. I'll post it up later.
@Dnc, I've never had arbiter perform better than it did last night. The protection of sprite, queller and resto made it a house during all but the late game against control decks. It forced opponents into a choice of sacrifice tempo and face a slow clock or attempt to remove and lose tempo with a faster clock. That's not to say it would do so in all matches. I know that you don't care for the card but this is how it performed against tier one decks in the hands of competent opponents. Try it out. The worst that happens is that you still don't like it.
Edit: that's not to say that mindcensor is bad. It might have a place in this deck but I have no idea what to cut for it.
I played in 10 man tourney tonight using a lightly modified spiderspace/dnc white blue list and went 3-0-1 against high quality opponents. This deck rocks! The addition of arbiters was a factor in every match and heavily so versus infect and scapeshift.
Match one was versus an opponent of significantly higher skill playing infect. I was on the draw for the first game and locked him out with arbiter and land destruction. Spellstutter sprite protected arbiter from removal. I dropped arbiters, a flickerwisp and resto for two spellskites, two sunlances and two ghostly prisons. He was able to establish a board in game two but held at bay by my ghostly prison. He untapped with a blighted agent on board and drew. I tapped out for clique to make lethal and he responded with become immense for the win. I brought the arbiters back in on the play, dropping three revokers and a flickerwisp. I was rewarded by locking him out of the game again. I have long been a fan of having arbiters on the play versus infect but not on the draw. This just further confirmed my belief.
Match two was against a player of slightly higher skill level playing jeskai nahiri. Game one was a back and forth and drawn out slug match that saw him nahiri into emrakul. I was able to use arbiter to lock him out in game two. Game three was a stalemate as we went to turns and agreed to a draw.
Match three was versus a player of moderately higher skill playing blue white control. Game one was a back and forth that saw extremely high levels of play. On one occasion I spell quellered and ojutai's command to have him attempt to remove it. I responded with spellstutter sprite which was spell snared. I vialed in thalia. My sprite was countered and queller removed but he couldn't recast ojutai's command off queller due to the thalia tax. I was able to eke out a win in game one after using spellstutter sprite on an ancestrall knowledge off suspend. Knowing the opponent and this deck, I brought in two ghostly prisons, one Kira, one sword and two rest in peace. reflector mage and eldrazi displacer were sided out He was able to cast all four supreme verdicts in game two and grind me out with collonades. I locked him out of the game with arbiters and thalia in game three.
Game four was against a lower skilled player with scapeshift. I don't know how he made it to the finals. He played scapeshift and was able to combo off after I kept a questionable hand and was mana screwed in game one. I brought in two forge tenders and a surgical extraction in game two and was able to use arbiter to lock him out completely. Game three played much the same except he cast an anger of the gods into my spell queller and then tried to bolt it only to have spellstutter sprite save the day. He didn't understand arbiter and had to have it explained why he couldn't search on more than one occasion.
My impressions are as follows on mvps and cards that didn't pull their weight.
-Arbiter was fantastic and is the definite mvp tonight. Those that are in favor of playing revoker in place of arbiter should try playing them side by side.
-Revoker was a factor in almost half of the games I played. He turned off noble hierarch, nahiri, elspeth, and sakura tribe elder.
-Thalia performed better than ever with protection from sprite. They have an excellent synergy.
-Spellstutter sprite is very well placed in this meta where almost every single deck plays bolt or path to exile. The protection provided by this card was instrumental to my success tonight. It felt like home and proved to be exceedingly useful. The few points of airborne damage should also not be glossed over.
-Spell queller performed exactly as expected, counteracting almost all spells in this format. The interaction with Thalia should not be overlooked as well.
-Restoration angel was cast only once and performed admirably saving a wisp and enabling shenanigans. I think this deck should play two.Re
Cards that I'm unsure about.
-Reflector mage was cut in almost every match. This is a function of not playing against any aggro decks besides infect. I'm sure this is very good.
-Eldrazi displacer was used only once. It was necessary to hold up mana for answers rather than use the displacer. It should be noted that I didn't really play against any grindy decks where it could excel.
-Vendilion clique only factored in as a source of damage. I'm sure it's good versus combo and non-grindy decks.
Going forward I think two vensers and two restoration angels have a place in this deck. I'll be picking up the venser's out of this nights winnings. I wish there was room for another sprite and queller. The following changes seem strong:
-2 displacer
-1 clique
+1 resto
Thanks to spiderspace and dnc for this sweeet deck!
+2 vensers
@Spiderspace, gutshot is mostly a downgrade from sunlance. It's good versus grim lavamancer, dark confidant and mana dorks but is ineffective against almost all of burn and even a naked scooze.
@Charonsobol, can you clean that up a little? What I'm looking for is why you don't like leyline and what to use in it's place. Also, for that write up, abzan company is treated as a separate decks than jund/junk/bg midrange. Some of the same strategies will work but they're very different in other regards.
@Nzb2323, it looks like a worse version of junk. That doesn't mean it's necessarily bad but it won't be as good either. I see your lands coming into play tapped much of the time. Perhaps cut some thickets for stirring wildwood as I imagine you'll flood fairly often. I think fetchlands are the cost of admission in a full three color deck.
@Spiderspace/dnc, what are your thoughts about swapping quickling and selfless spirit for a set of arbiters? I have a feeling that I already know what dnc will say ( ) but thought I'd ask anyway.
Also, I'm not trying to revive the leyline debacle. Would anyone that does not care for it like to write a counterpoint to add to the anti-bgx tactica? Please pm me your entry. I'll be sure to credit you. I'd be happy to see it added to the leonin library if you collectively find it worthy.
Charonsobol posted this article around a week ago and I've tested it out. This is primarily focused towards wg players but may have something of value for others. I played the exact list with a different sideboard.
My observations are:
-23 lands with four manlands and four canopys is the way to go. It's hugely consistent and threat density is improved. The difference in speed is almost negligible. It made gearhulk easily playable. This is the only hint I'm certain of out of everything written in the article. I'm unsure if this applies to other splashes as their manlands are not as suitable as stirring wildwood.
-As a corollary, this could be a great place for eldrazi to play. Manabase has traditionally been the downside to that deck. But what about wasteland strangler? :Cries:
-Fleecemane lion is decent but it competes with voice of resurgence which is really, really good.
-The critique of the flickerwisp/restoration angel package is valid. Being able to leave your vial at two is a wonderful feeling. That's not to say that Green, the author, is correct but he's not wrong. Flickerwisp/resto rely on synergy and are not nearly as good in topdeck mode. It's also less consistent in that flickerwisp is almost always essential with vial or resto needed as a supplement. This is in comparison to the deck listed or a voice/smiter/liege package that relies only on drawing your relevant hate and some other creatures.
-Surrak, the hunt caller fulfills a similar wish for a hasty creature that wall of resurgence and reality smasher do. He's not as good in topdeck as wall but better in even a moderately established board. Reality smasher is a house but the eldrazi and taxes manabase is a mess. I think Surrak fits somewhere in between.
-Lodestone golem is better than you think. The taxing effect is less impactful at four cmc than it is at two but it does tax most creatures too. Three toughness isn't as big of a vulnerability to removal as one would initially think but it does make the golem fragile in combat which is where you want it. This card has been shunned for too long but doesn't deserve to be a staple like Thalia.
-I think that Thalia, heretic cathar could have a place in this shell. Normally, having her be one-for-oned is a bad thing but the threat density makes topdeck mode a good place to be.
Zealous could be orzhov pontiff which is better, especially with displacers. Unsure if anguished unmaking has a place. It's an excellent answer to planeswalkers.
A set of canopys is the correct number. With 23 lands and four mana dorks, they'll (collectovely) be tapped for mana perhaps twice over the course of the game before being cracked for draw. That typically happens when you have your fifth mana available which is practically guaranteed in any kind of grindy matchup. I've lost more games by being a card behind than a life or two behind.
Four copies of stirring wildwood among 23 lands allows for very consistent land drops and acts as terrific insurance against flood.
This gives extremely strong topdecks (~30-33 creatures and 4 draw cards) in a grindy meta while enabling you to consistently make land drops. 13 untapped green sources mean that you have a 92% of being able to cast a first turn hierarch.
My experience with oath is that you would need to use it to dig for lands early on when running 21
This wouldn't be bad in a blue deck which doesn't depend on tempo but stinks for us. This isn't to say that oath is bad but I don't think it has a home in a low to the ground build. This is my opinion and it's worth everything you payed for it.
@Darktutot, early arbiter and land destruction is powerful for any variant and more so for GW but it's not always in the cards. I find big Thalia to be too vulnerable to bolts to be playable at the moment.
4 path to exile
4 godless shrine
4 caves of koilos
4 ghost quarter
2 tectonic edge
4 concealed courtyard
2 plains
2 swamp
3 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
4 leonin arbiter
4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
4 selfless spirit
3 phyrexian revoker
2 pack rat
3 spellskite
This is an updated version of the same list.
Edit: that's not to say that mindcensor is bad. It might have a place in this deck but I have no idea what to cut for it.
I played in 10 man tourney tonight using a lightly modified spiderspace/dnc white blue list and went 3-0-1 against high quality opponents. This deck rocks! The addition of arbiters was a factor in every match and heavily so versus infect and scapeshift.
4 path to exile
4 aether vial
lands
3 adarkar wastes
3 hallowed fountain
4 seachrome coast
2 horizon canopy
4 ghost quarter
2 mutavault
1 moorland haunt
1 tectonic edge
2 plains
1 island
3 phyrexian revoker
3 spellstutter sprite
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 eldrazi displacer
4 flickerwisp
3 reflector mage
3 spell queller
1 vendilion clique
1 restoration angel
1 engineered explosives
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 sunlance
1 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
2 spellskite
1 detention sphere
2 ghostly prison
1 kira, great glass-spinner
Match one was versus an opponent of significantly higher skill playing infect. I was on the draw for the first game and locked him out with arbiter and land destruction. Spellstutter sprite protected arbiter from removal. I dropped arbiters, a flickerwisp and resto for two spellskites, two sunlances and two ghostly prisons. He was able to establish a board in game two but held at bay by my ghostly prison. He untapped with a blighted agent on board and drew. I tapped out for clique to make lethal and he responded with become immense for the win. I brought the arbiters back in on the play, dropping three revokers and a flickerwisp. I was rewarded by locking him out of the game again. I have long been a fan of having arbiters on the play versus infect but not on the draw. This just further confirmed my belief.
Match two was against a player of slightly higher skill level playing jeskai nahiri. Game one was a back and forth and drawn out slug match that saw him nahiri into emrakul. I was able to use arbiter to lock him out in game two. Game three was a stalemate as we went to turns and agreed to a draw.
Match three was versus a player of moderately higher skill playing blue white control. Game one was a back and forth that saw extremely high levels of play. On one occasion I spell quellered and ojutai's command to have him attempt to remove it. I responded with spellstutter sprite which was spell snared. I vialed in thalia. My sprite was countered and queller removed but he couldn't recast ojutai's command off queller due to the thalia tax. I was able to eke out a win in game one after using spellstutter sprite on an ancestrall knowledge off suspend. Knowing the opponent and this deck, I brought in two ghostly prisons, one Kira, one sword and two rest in peace. reflector mage and eldrazi displacer were sided out He was able to cast all four supreme verdicts in game two and grind me out with collonades. I locked him out of the game with arbiters and thalia in game three.
Game four was against a lower skilled player with scapeshift. I don't know how he made it to the finals. He played scapeshift and was able to combo off after I kept a questionable hand and was mana screwed in game one. I brought in two forge tenders and a surgical extraction in game two and was able to use arbiter to lock him out completely. Game three played much the same except he cast an anger of the gods into my spell queller and then tried to bolt it only to have spellstutter sprite save the day. He didn't understand arbiter and had to have it explained why he couldn't search on more than one occasion.
My impressions are as follows on mvps and cards that didn't pull their weight.
-Arbiter was fantastic and is the definite mvp tonight. Those that are in favor of playing revoker in place of arbiter should try playing them side by side.
-Revoker was a factor in almost half of the games I played. He turned off noble hierarch, nahiri, elspeth, and sakura tribe elder.
-Thalia performed better than ever with protection from sprite. They have an excellent synergy.
-Spellstutter sprite is very well placed in this meta where almost every single deck plays bolt or path to exile. The protection provided by this card was instrumental to my success tonight. It felt like home and proved to be exceedingly useful. The few points of airborne damage should also not be glossed over.
-Spell queller performed exactly as expected, counteracting almost all spells in this format. The interaction with Thalia should not be overlooked as well.
-Restoration angel was cast only once and performed admirably saving a wisp and enabling shenanigans. I think this deck should play two.Re
Cards that I'm unsure about.
-Reflector mage was cut in almost every match. This is a function of not playing against any aggro decks besides infect. I'm sure this is very good.
-Eldrazi displacer was used only once. It was necessary to hold up mana for answers rather than use the displacer. It should be noted that I didn't really play against any grindy decks where it could excel.
-Vendilion clique only factored in as a source of damage. I'm sure it's good versus combo and non-grindy decks.
Going forward I think two vensers and two restoration angels have a place in this deck. I'll be picking up the venser's out of this nights winnings. I wish there was room for another sprite and queller. The following changes seem strong:
-2 displacer
-1 clique
+1 resto
Thanks to spiderspace and dnc for this sweeet deck!
+2 vensers
@rothgar, Do you care to add anything? Also, good points for gutshot.
@Charonsobol, can you clean that up a little? What I'm looking for is why you don't like leyline and what to use in it's place. Also, for that write up, abzan company is treated as a separate decks than jund/junk/bg midrange. Some of the same strategies will work but they're very different in other regards.
Also, I'm not trying to revive the leyline debacle. Would anyone that does not care for it like to write a counterpoint to add to the anti-bgx tactica? Please pm me your entry. I'll be sure to credit you. I'd be happy to see it added to the leonin library if you collectively find it worthy.
My observations are:
-23 lands with four manlands and four canopys is the way to go. It's hugely consistent and threat density is improved. The difference in speed is almost negligible. It made gearhulk easily playable. This is the only hint I'm certain of out of everything written in the article. I'm unsure if this applies to other splashes as their manlands are not as suitable as stirring wildwood.
-As a corollary, this could be a great place for eldrazi to play. Manabase has traditionally been the downside to that deck. But what about wasteland strangler? :Cries:
-Fleecemane lion is decent but it competes with voice of resurgence which is really, really good.
-The critique of the flickerwisp/restoration angel package is valid. Being able to leave your vial at two is a wonderful feeling. That's not to say that Green, the author, is correct but he's not wrong. Flickerwisp/resto rely on synergy and are not nearly as good in topdeck mode. It's also less consistent in that flickerwisp is almost always essential with vial or resto needed as a supplement. This is in comparison to the deck listed or a voice/smiter/liege package that relies only on drawing your relevant hate and some other creatures.
-Surrak, the hunt caller fulfills a similar wish for a hasty creature that wall of resurgence and reality smasher do. He's not as good in topdeck as wall but better in even a moderately established board. Reality smasher is a house but the eldrazi and taxes manabase is a mess. I think Surrak fits somewhere in between.
-Lodestone golem is better than you think. The taxing effect is less impactful at four cmc than it is at two but it does tax most creatures too. Three toughness isn't as big of a vulnerability to removal as one would initially think but it does make the golem fragile in combat which is where you want it. This card has been shunned for too long but doesn't deserve to be a staple like Thalia.
-I think that Thalia, heretic cathar could have a place in this shell. Normally, having her be one-for-oned is a bad thing but the threat density makes topdeck mode a good place to be.