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  • 1

    posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    Sorin, lord of innistrad. Sorry for the confusion. I chose lord of innistrad over solemn visitor due to the fact that token generation is a + ability and thus allows for stalling a disadvantaged board state while being equally good in a neutral or advantageous board state due to being able to create an emblem for only two loyalty.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    I have a screenshot but it’s with my phone and not the best quality. I played an almost identical list last night and wasn’t particularly impressed. I missed wall of omens badly. The first rule of control decks is preserve your life total and wall does that well. I’m trying a 3/1 split with wall and arguel’s blood fast.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • 4

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Hi everybody.

    It’s been awhile since I’ve been on the mtgsalvation forum and in that time there are a bunch of new people here. Allow me to introduce myself for those that don’t know me. I’m dsmonsta. I’ve been playing Magic on and off since the dark days of 4th edition when cards were either broken beyond belief or gimped by modern standards but didn’t play beyond kitchen table until the summer of 2015 or grixis summer as it’s lovingly referred to. This was a time when eldrazi were a punchline and splinter twin made up over ten percent of the meta. DNT has been my go to deck and modern my go to format since then. I’m a player and deckbuilder of unimpressive skill but I can craft a manabase like no one’s business. For what it’s worth I primarily play white/green or straight white. These are my areas of expertise although I’m familiar with the rest of the deck.

    I wrote the original DNT manabase primer in April of 2016 and I think it still is useful but the format is much changed since then and my own views have matured as well. The original post can be found here for reference. It is based in large part on Frank Karsten’s superb article regarding manabase construction which is available here and the birds of paradise mana failure table which can be found here . READ THESE! It should be noted that Karsten’s math is more complex than the raw tables and includes a hand selection bias in the math and the tables appear to be more restrictive. This is for good reason. The raw tables are just that, raw.


    In general, I like to define the threshold of success of any uncertain task that I set out on before I set out on it in order to temper my own expectations and root them in reality. This prevents me from throwing the towel prematurely if things go rougher than expected or declaring victory when it’s unearned.

    1. Reliably casting our spells on the curve.
    This is the most important thing that we need mana for and lands are our mana producers. Yes, we have aether vial and green splashes would be remiss to not play a set of noble hierarch but most of our spells will be cast with mana produced by lands. This does not necessarily mean that we need to hit every land drop but we depend on advancing to the middle and late portion of the games while our opponents resources are tied up and they are unable to progress a board state beyond the early game. This is more important now than ever before with a plethora of unfair and quasi-fair decks making up tier one.

    2. Provide land destruction
    DNT is one of the only decks in format that plays four or more lands that have a primary use that is not producing mana or getting lands that produce mana. Let us start with the obvious. Every iteration of this deck plays four ghost quarters. This is a hard and fast rule. The number of Thalias and arbiters played is flexible but ghost quarter is a four of automatically. Sadly WOTC says we have to play by the same rules as everyone else and four is the limit. Many DNT variants will run tectonic edges supplementally. This is a cornerstone of the deck.

    3. Provide additional utility
    Nobody likes topdecking a land when the board state is stalled and a land that just taps for mana that you already have nothing to do with is even worse. This is why we run utility lands and it’s fairly unique in format to run more than one or two of these utility lands. These range from man lands that put power on the board, dodge sweepers and can’t be countered to card draw or even stranger. We must eke every benefit possible out of our lands due to the fact we run very few non-creature spells.


    This question is almost always asked regarding noble hierarch and for good reason. A first turn hierarch that survives to make mana can enable some tremendously mean plays that shift the percentage for wins in our favor. My favorite is turn two arbiter and ghost quarter but aven mindcensor and Thalia, heretic cathar are very strong as well.

    To answer the question though we must know what turn we want to cast these spells on. Consulting Karsten’s tables we see that the answer for the first turn noble hierarch is 14 untapped green sources which is simple enough. Do we really need to cast hierarch on turn one though? It enables strong plays and all but is much less likely to survive until turn two than an aether vial. Every time both are in my opener I have trouble deciding which to play.

    On the other hand let us say that we want to be able to cast a card that costs 1W on turn two. The same table says 13 lands are necessary for that to happen with reliability. Lately, I’ve been running a greedier manabases than previously to squeeze every bit of utility out of my cards and have the best top decks possible.


    Twenty three. Probably. This has been the popular answer for much of the history of this deck in the modern format and for good reason. We sacrifice our own lands all the time and still need to draw them as vial won’t be seen in nearly half of our games.

    The main exception to playing 23 lands is that green splashes have access to noble hierarch which is awesome. This is very well supported in results and 22 is the default answer for green splashses but is not by any means authoritative. I’ve personally run 23 lands in green splashes to use a set of stirring wildwood but that was before fatal push was around and I won’t be doing that at the moment. Some claim that ramp sources let us run a lower land count as they produce more mana. My response is that we still need to draw them and 22 is lower than the 26 draws that can power a green splash while only actually playing 22 lands.


    Fetchlands are a staple of every format where they’re legal and for good reason. They provide outstanding reliability in manabase construction as well as deck thinning for a negligible cost in life. Any three color and most two color decks will play at least a set with up to 10 being average. We prey on this with leonin arbiter and aven mindcensor to at least steal tempo and force removal and at most lock opponents out of the game.

    We can run fetchlands too and play around our own arbiter. The spider knows what part of the web is sticky. The advanatage of this aside from mana fixing is that we can turn on revolt for renegade rallier and fatal push, take advantage of deck thinning (it’s overrated by most but over the course of a few days it will matter and something is better than nothing) and fetch basics to nullify a blood moon type effect. The disadvantages are that eventually you will get caught by your own arbiter and hatebears/dnt makes up ~5% of the metagame as of this writing so it is not something to be embarked upon lightly. Have a good reason to play fetches if you choose to.


    Four. Almost always and no; you won’t auto-lose to burn. You’ll give up a few percentage points against burn and decks of it’s ilk which make up ~7% of the meta as of this writing but improve your chances with almost everything else and besides, we have a solid match against burn already.
    Yes. Horizon canopy is expensive (as of this writing SCG is sold out at $100) and the second line of text may as well read “1, tap, sac: draw another land.” but that’s one card closer to what will win you the game and you need a compelling reason to not run four. Here are some good reasons: “I can’t afford them.” “I’m playing a splash that isn’t green.” “My meta is nothing but burn.”

    Please note that this is my opinion and it’s a fairly contentious one even among those that have contributed a great amount to this thread and also the development of the deck. I will point out that every pro player that has top eighted a GP with this deck has played a set of canopys though.

    The short answer to this question is that you should be able to cast every card in your deck off of nothing but your basic lands. Blood moon exists and shouldn’t be discounted but the primary reason why we run basics is so that we don’t make our opponent’s ghost quarters and path to exiles better. This is a concern as they are the number one and two most commonly played cards in format as of this writing. We also use our own cards for emergency mana fixing. White/green tends to have a greedier (in terms of basics) manabase and I have been known to play two forests and one plains rather than two plains. This is compromise for casting noble hierarch reliably on the first turn.

    I like to have half my lands have some other ability besides making mana as this contributes to a higher percentage of live draws when the board is stalemated or we’re behind. This will typically be 4 ghost quarters, 4 horizon canopys, 2 manlands and 1-2 other lands.

    Since fatal push emerged on the scene and the meta included more and more ghost quarters I’ve had less and less luck with manlands (looking in your direction stirring wildwood) which had previously been real winners. This is in part due to the fact that spending 1GW to activate it and having it die to one mana worth of tempo in either case is bad trade when previously it survived lightning bolt and abrupt decay; the two best removal spells in format. For this reason I don’t encourage the wholesale use of more than a couple manlands unless they’re low investment types like mutavault that opponents will be less likely to spend removal on and it’s not a huge tempo loss if they do.

    The Innistrad cycle utility lands are by and large great. [card[Gavony township[/card] is widely used and for very good reason as it can put a tremendous amount of power on the board. Less utilized lands are moorland haunt and slayer’s stronghold. I’d like to think that this is due to blue and red being less popular splashes. Last but not least is {card]vault of the archangel[/card] which has a tremendous amount of potential but is infrequently played due to WB eldrazi and taxes having a ridiculously tight manabase already.

    The Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation cycle of desert lands are something that I think has great potential. Thread contributors and streamers extroardinare Deathandcatmix and Spiderspace have both used shefet dunes to good result on stream and I use them in Wc eldrazi and taxes but the one that I believe has the most potential is scavenger grounds as it allows non-green decks to pack graveyard hate in the main deck. Furthermore this happens at time when grave hate, especially fast and reasonably costed graveyard hate is very important in the meta. I think hashep oasis has playability. This is primarily due to the fact that it can giant growth a mirran crusader for tremendous offensive potential. Lastly, ifnir deadlands seems useable as it provides removal that is land based.

    Here are some sample manabases. Each is on the conservative side.





    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 1

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Hey gang. Manabase primer 2.0 is in writing.

    Are there any questions that you'd like to see addressed? So far the only one I've gotten was the inclusion of deserts which I'll be happy to oblige.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 2

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Hey gang. The manabase primer is pretty dated and I'm going to be writing a new one. Are there specific issues that anyone wants to see addressed? Also, does anyone have access to hypergeometric distribution charts besides the old bopmtg ones?
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 2

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    @Laughingpeluso, vial comes out in games where threat density is critical and artifact hate is in the main or sideboard. Jund and junk are great examples of these types of matches. Noble hierarch can be safely sided out in long games where super efficient removal like electrolyze, izzet staticasters and sweepers will be in play. The quick mana acceleration is unlikely to be impactful in these games.

    Fwiw, these are my opinions and by no means the conventional wisdom of the hive mind. Others would suggest not siding out vial against jund citing that it allows flickerwisp to be played at instant speed. Your mileage may vary.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 1

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Been super busy lately and haven't gotten a chance to check in. Lots of cool developments that I've missed.

    Dnc, congrats on the 5-0. I caught the very end of it.

    Charons & spiderspace, I really enjoyed the GW and bant streams. Think geist is good against both aggressive decks and controlling/combo decks as it doubles as deterrent and clock while requiring a sweeper to remove at parity. Would like to see room for scooze in the deck as it's at least good and often great against fair decks. Very mana hungry though.

    Keep up the good work, gang.

    Ps. Haven't forgotten about the infect tactica.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 2

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Hey gang.

    I played in 10 man tourney tonight using a lightly modified spiderspace/dnc white blue list and went 3-0-1 against high quality opponents. This deck rocks! The addition of arbiters was a factor in every match and heavily so versus infect and scapeshift.



    Match one was versus an opponent of significantly higher skill playing infect. I was on the draw for the first game and locked him out with arbiter and land destruction. Spellstutter sprite protected arbiter from removal. I dropped arbiters, a flickerwisp and resto for two spellskites, two sunlances and two ghostly prisons. He was able to establish a board in game two but held at bay by my ghostly prison. He untapped with a blighted agent on board and drew. I tapped out for clique to make lethal and he responded with become immense for the win. I brought the arbiters back in on the play, dropping three revokers and a flickerwisp. I was rewarded by locking him out of the game again. I have long been a fan of having arbiters on the play versus infect but not on the draw. This just further confirmed my belief.

    Match two was against a player of slightly higher skill level playing jeskai nahiri. Game one was a back and forth and drawn out slug match that saw him nahiri into emrakul. I was able to use arbiter to lock him out in game two. Game three was a stalemate as we went to turns and agreed to a draw.

    Match three was versus a player of moderately higher skill playing blue white control. Game one was a back and forth that saw extremely high levels of play. On one occasion I spell quellered and ojutai's command to have him attempt to remove it. I responded with spellstutter sprite which was spell snared. I vialed in thalia. My sprite was countered and queller removed but he couldn't recast ojutai's command off queller due to the thalia tax. I was able to eke out a win in game one after using spellstutter sprite on an ancestrall knowledge off suspend. Knowing the opponent and this deck, I brought in two ghostly prisons, one Kira, one sword and two rest in peace. reflector mage and eldrazi displacer were sided out He was able to cast all four supreme verdicts in game two and grind me out with collonades. I locked him out of the game with arbiters and thalia in game three.

    Game four was against a lower skilled player with scapeshift. I don't know how he made it to the finals. He played scapeshift and was able to combo off after I kept a questionable hand and was mana screwed in game one. I brought in two forge tenders and a surgical extraction in game two and was able to use arbiter to lock him out completely. Game three played much the same except he cast an anger of the gods into my spell queller and then tried to bolt it only to have spellstutter sprite save the day. He didn't understand arbiter and had to have it explained why he couldn't search on more than one occasion.

    My impressions are as follows on mvps and cards that didn't pull their weight.

    -Arbiter was fantastic and is the definite mvp tonight. Those that are in favor of playing revoker in place of arbiter should try playing them side by side.
    -Revoker was a factor in almost half of the games I played. He turned off noble hierarch, nahiri, elspeth, and sakura tribe elder.
    -Thalia performed better than ever with protection from sprite. They have an excellent synergy.
    -Spellstutter sprite is very well placed in this meta where almost every single deck plays bolt or path to exile. The protection provided by this card was instrumental to my success tonight. It felt like home and proved to be exceedingly useful. The few points of airborne damage should also not be glossed over.
    -Spell queller performed exactly as expected, counteracting almost all spells in this format. The interaction with Thalia should not be overlooked as well.
    -Restoration angel was cast only once and performed admirably saving a wisp and enabling shenanigans. I think this deck should play two.Re

    Cards that I'm unsure about.
    -Reflector mage was cut in almost every match. This is a function of not playing against any aggro decks besides infect. I'm sure this is very good.
    -Eldrazi displacer was used only once. It was necessary to hold up mana for answers rather than use the displacer. It should be noted that I didn't really play against any grindy decks where it could excel.
    -Vendilion clique only factored in as a source of damage. I'm sure it's good versus combo and non-grindy decks.

    Going forward I think two vensers and two restoration angels have a place in this deck. I'll be picking up the venser's out of this nights winnings. I wish there was room for another sprite and queller. The following changes seem strong:
    -2 displacer
    -1 clique
    +1 resto

    Thanks to spiderspace and dnc for this sweeet deck!
    +2 vensers
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 1

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    @Spiderspace, gutshot is mostly a downgrade from sunlance. It's good versus grim lavamancer, dark confidant and mana dorks but is ineffective against almost all of burn and even a naked scooze.

    @Charonsobol, can you clean that up a little? What I'm looking for is why you don't like leyline and what to use in it's place. Also, for that write up, abzan company is treated as a separate decks than jund/junk/bg midrange. Some of the same strategies will work but they're very different in other regards.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • 3

    posted a message on Death And Taxes
    So you want to beat jund...


    The Rock/Jund/Junk (henceforth known as bgx) is a black, green and maybe something else aggro-control deck that is one of the most popular decks in the modern format due to ease of play and raw power of the cards in the deck. A novice can take a bgx deck and do well while an expert will be suitably rewarded with the same deck.

    This piece is written from the perspective of a wg player. Wg has excellent answers to bgx and is likely the best dnt/hatebears deck against them. This isn't to say that other decks are incapable but rather that's just how the cards line up. Straight-white has the capability of stomping bgx into the ground as well but requires using cards that can make less sense in other matchups. I'll add tech for bw/uw players as I can. For what it's worth, I don't claim expertise that other contributors to this thread have in those splashes. I will add notes regarding them to this post so it can be added to the collective knowledge base in one place for ease of access. Don't be afraid to speak up.

    A bgx pilot has three objectives. First, use low cost targeted discard spells (Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoghtseize) to remove threatening cards or disrupt the tempo of the next play while gaining knowledge of our game. Second, destroy every nonland permanent that the opponent plays to have a battle of top decks. Third, win the battle of top decks with Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer/Tasigur.

    Let's examine each objective and how we counteract it.

    Discard is probably the most insidious weapon that bgx has against us. For the cost of one black mana and perhaps two life, a bgx player can know our strategy, disrupt our tempo, and take our most disruptive card. DNT/hatebears is a deck that thrives on subtle synergies and this hurts greatly.

    In terms of main deck playability our best card is eternal witness as it gets back whatever was taken and acts as a chump blocker or even a source of some damage. Uncommon choices that are good here are Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege as they're put into play rather than the graveyard. It's sad but wg has the best main deck answers here.

    Once we open up the sideboard we find leyline of sanctity that nullifies discard and turns inquisition/thoughtseize into dead cards. This is the reason I play three in my sideboard. The fact that it shuts off many oddball decks is just gravy.

    Heavy removal is where the control elements of bgx come in. Abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse are two of the best removal cards printed and four or more copies will fit into every deck of this type. Lightning bolt, terminate, and path to exile round out the targeted removal spells. I'd be remiss if I left out kolaghan's command and the Lillianas. Command will almost always be a two for one in whatever modes are chosen and the Lillianas offer repeatable removal.

    The answer to this is value and threat density which we have innately. This may be in the form of blade splicer, kitchen finks, voice of resurgence, eternal witness, wall of resurgence, or wasteland strangler. These creatures enter or leave the battlefield with a trigger that advances our board state so we' re ahead even if they're removed. This incremental advantage is absolutely vital to beating bgx.

    Another important aspect of threat density is the playing of utility and manlands. This is a luxury that we have and most decks do not. Practically every version of dnt/hatebears runs two or more man-lands, up to four horizon canopys and at least one utility land. The mixture is almost always dictated by color. Once again white/green has the easiest time of this as canopy is the best draw card available to this deck, stirring wildwood dodges almost all removal while having reach and gavony township gains two power from an intact blade splicer, resets kitchen finks, and enable hierarchs to swing for damage. This isn't to discount vault of the archangel or moorland haunt. Both are excellent cards in this matchup and otherwise, but the realities of manabase construction dictate that canopy is greedy while wb/wu manlands are either not as good as wildwood or wildly expensive to activate respectively. It should be noted that straight-white is not in a bad spot in this aspect. Mutavault is excellent and seagate wreckage is likely to keep you ahead in terms of cards. Blinkmoth nexus is brutally strong when used in conjunction with wall of resurgence.

    The final aspect that we should consider when it comes to our creatures is that of resilience. Having their removal miss our creatures altogether or forcing the opponent to use two cards to get rid of one creature lets us advance or keep our board position. Examples of these cards are Brimaz, thought -knot seer, loxodon smiter, wilt-leaf liege, and mirran crusader. These evade removal by nature of their toughness or protection. It doesn't really matter though. They make life miserable for our opponents. Wall of resurgence is an excellent card in this instance as it is both resilient and provides additional value. [u]It is an absolute nightmare for bgx. [\u]

    Note: I specifically did not mention using wisp and resto to blink your creatures and dodge removal as this is a corner play that really can't be taken for granted in a removal heavy deck like bgx.

    All of the cards that have been mentioned in this section are mainboard cards. When it comes to sideboard we're still in a good spot. Mark of asylum prevents non-combat damage to our creatures while spellskite is an excellent answer to path to exile and kolaghan's command. The aforementioned leyline also turns off Lilliana's sac ability. I'm a proponent of siding out aether vial in this match. This lets us play over thirty proper creatures and with the lands that were mentioned earlier, we have an excellent chance of drawing more threats than the bgx player can deal with.

    Third, the bgx player will hope to overwhelm the opposition with big beaters or card advantage. This takes the form of goyfs and scoozes that are fat on graveyards or dark confidants and Liliana, the last hope that can secure extra cards as well as remove our weenies. Grim flayer acts as card filtering when it deals combat damage to an opponent. It has a good chance of doing so. The final threat they pose is with fat beaters which can swing the board state on their own. These are kalitas, traitor of ghet, siege rhino, and Tasigur. These are our biggest threats as they outsize our creatures and effect the board otherwise. It should be noted that junk plays a set of lingering souls mainboard. These are hellish for us as a single token trades with a flickerwisp.

    The best mainboard solution to goyf, scooze and Lili the last hope are.... Your own scooze! We should have easier access to green mana than the bgx player and don't need to choose between it and casting other spells. Loxodon smiter answers Lili of the veil well. Dark Confidants are troublesome as a path to exile is poorly spent on it. The correct answer is to block off the ground and pressure the opposition with flyers. Black splashes have an excellent target for wasteland strangler. Lingering souls is troublesome as one token trades with a flickerwisp which is part of our win condition. Our best card here is Serra avenger, but that's not a great card in this matchup otherwise. It should be noted that stirring wildwood can block tokens. This is true, but spending three plus one mana to block 25% of a card is inherently inefficient. Forcing them into positions of chump blocking with the tokens keeps them from beating our face in. This is made easier by the fact that junk has less removal than jund.

    Post-board we have access to powerful graveyard hate that shuts down goyf and scooze like rest in peace (kill shot), relic of progenitus (cantrip), and jotun grunt (beater). These cards also shut down the most troubling aspect of Liliana, the last hope. This is also how we should oppose lingering souls. Two tokens from one card is much more manageable than four tokens from one card.

    Have I pimped leyline of sanctity enough? No? It turns Liliana of the veil into a card disadvantage engine rather than a card advantage engine. It's great against bgx.

    The worst threat of bgx are the 4+ cmc creatures that compare favorably to ours and have a secondary ability. Again, save a path to exile for them.

    This covers beating their game. This is more than half the battle being as we play a meta deck. That said, we must attack their weakness while nullifying their strength to win. Bgx has two primary weaknesses that we're in a position to take advantage of.

    First, garden variety bgx plays with no flyers and counts on removal to deal with yours. This is another reason that lingering souls is so good against them. It should be noted that junk has lingering souls of their own so this part doesn't apply to them.

    Second, the bgx manabase is weak and greedy; jund particularly so. They play many fetchlands and no basic mountains. Color screwing them off red eliminates half of their removal and makes it a much more even game. Keeping them off two black mana or two green mana is more difficult, but still doable. This turns off Liliana and damnation. Their own scoozes become much more manageable when starved.

    Hope you've enjoyed the read and good luck versus bgx. It should be a practically free win for us. Please comment and I'll add to this post.

    Sample decks



    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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