Before playing nevermore i'd go and play Meddling Mage...
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
Phantasmal Image is not nearly as good in spirits as it is in humans. Humans has lots of ETB effects (Lieutenant, Champ, Reflector Mage, Freebooter), so even when you're playing against heavily interactive decks it has an impact on the board even if it's going to die soon. Spirits relies on more static effects (ie. Lord pump effects) or "sacrifice spirit: do something to annoy your opponent" effects, so Image dying to spot removal is a lot worse for spirits. In spirits it's one of the weaker cards, so it makes sense to side it out when you know what sideboard cards you should be bringing in. I don't like Image much, but just because you're siding it out in most post-board games doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be in your maindeck - pre-board games are more about doing *your* thing as quickly as possible, whereas post-board games the focus will likely shift to stop-them-from-doing-their-thing-until-you-can-do-your-thing.
Geist of Saint Traft is a powerful individual card, but doesn't fit with the general "team spirit" of spirits that's all about a synergizing group of flyers. The more copies of Geist you have, the more likely you're going to draw that dead 2nd copy.
Has anyone tried traditional Abzan Company (ie. no druid/vizier combo - just the Anafenza/Melira combo) in this meta? I decided to try it out since the meta's gotten a lot grindier with the rise of UWx control, and at a recent SCG open it was Jund vs. Burn in the finals. So far it's been amazing in my limited testing - I've won almost all of my matches (outside of ones where I've punted). It doesn't have the nut draws that Counters Company has, but it still T4 combos consistently against limited interaction and can grind vs. midrange and control. Here's the list I've currently on.
Llanowar Elves is, obviously, the 9th dork, and could be something like an Eternal Witness but I've found that the games you start with a dork go so much better than the ones you don't (increases your chances to start with one from 65% to 70%, and having multiple dorks in play is also great vs. decks that aren't heavily interactive). Maindeck Eidolon of Rhetoric has been great in the matchups where it's good, and those matchups (ie. Storm, KCI, the new R/B Vengevine deck that's everywhere) are the kinds of decks that are traditionally very difficult for the deck to handle. Not sure about the 3/2 split between Chord of Calling and Eldritch Evolution, maybe should be 2/3 instead as it allows you to go a little faster (but opens up more 2-for-1's against grindy decks).
You'll notice no Tron hate - it's such a bad matchup I figure I'll just have to go-for broke with the combo and focus my sb on closer matchups.
I like the fact that people are tossing out ideas and suggestions - I'd forgotten about cloudfin raptor and hadn't thought of signal pest as a potential fit. As mentioned, they're both terrible topdecks, and probably not worth it, but may be worth a try. I was thinking about trying Bugler too - it's amazing in humans and soldier stompy. But yeah, 3-drop that doesn't fit the theme... :-(
I'm going to keep trying Topplegeist for now. I think the delirium is basically impossible pre-board, and still really hard to get post-board even if you're siding in Cast Out. We'll see how it goes as just a one-time tap effect.
So summing up, I'm going the 2x Kira route to protect my board instead of forcing the chances of landing Captain+ Image, and I'm giving up on the "extra copies of Wanderer" (which you first have to draw) to deal with combos through powerful cards like Deprive and Labyrinth which have an effect on their own, not needing for a second card to be already there.
I went through the same experience and process you did about phantasmal image- few ETB effects and a reliance on static effects makes it usually a very weak card in this shell (whereas it's a house in Humans due to the plethora of ETB effects). I also ended up on 2x Kira as she's so powerful against the decks we struggle against. Our current mb's are almost identical. Your sb is definitely different than mine and some of your sb tech looks very interesting - ie. the "combo" between Deprive in the sb and Irrigated Farmland in the main - very clever. I'm going to try out your sb list just to see what it's like.
For what it's worth, I've found tron basically unwinnable, so tried making as many of the spell lands into Field of Ruins. Guess what? The tron matchup felt slightly better... and it really hurt other matchups, like UW control and Mardu. Not worth it. Mutavault and Moorland Haunt are where it's at for Vial Spirits as far as utility lands go.
I think the real issue with the deck right now is the lack of good 1-drops to compliment Wanderer. I think if we get another playable 1-drop the deck becomes very good. The deck excels whenever we get out to a decent start, but games where our first play is Selfless Spirit or Supreme Phantom feel like an uphill battle every time. Even a Rattlechains start on the draw can be too slow.
I've off-and-on tried non-spirits in that slot, like Thraben Inspector, Opt, Serum Visions and Spell Pierce, all of which were okay but not great. Pierce was a house against combo decks and sometimes control decks, but very poor against creature decks and a bad topdeck late-game. Inspector was okay but pretty much just a chump blocker, which is not a great synergistic fit. The lack of being pumped by the Lords makes it not very good vs. combo or control. I may actually try Topplegiest as a 2-of, just to see if it's worth it (I doubt it but haven't tried it yet).
Anyone tried cast out as maindeck answer for ensnaring bridge ect.?
I forgot about that card! I've been playing Detention Sphere in the sb which has been decidedly okay. Cast Out is much more on-theme (flash) for the deck, as well as being cycle-able if you don't need it. I'm going to try that out.
Has anyone read the very recent Todd Anderson article on Starcity.com comparing Bant Spirits to Humans and can tell me what he said? I don't have premium so can't read it.
Right; I'd forgotten about Uncage, as I wanted to try it when it was spoiled. I agree with pokken that this appears to be more of a sideboard card due to it being a CMC 4 or 5 sorcery speed spell that don't affect the board. Sure seems powerful though, especially as a late-game top deck. I think it's more likely to succeed as a consistent value play that sometimes finds a combo due to its cost and slowness, but we'll see!
Playing wolf run helps the uw control matchup a lot; it's way better than gavony in top deck mode due to making every dude an instant threat, and each time they path one of your dudes the ramp makes subsequent activations better. Where wolf run falls flat sometimes is that its mana hungry and slow when your have to deal 10+ dmg - fortunately control decks give you lots of time!
I think this seems worse in theory than it actually is in practice, though Spreading seas hurts more than gq or tec edge because I don't have a way to answer it pre-board. Witness is great for recurring your most relevant card, and chord and coco help find witness or Knight. Running 4x KotR significantly increases the number of times I find one of my 2x wolf run or 1x township, and you can always search out or play a utility land from hand to use immediately for one activation even if they have a live gq or tec edge.
This goes back to the idea that if we're presenting a lot of must-answer threats (druid, duskwatch, Knight, wolf run) that if not addressed care of take over the game, it gives control a tough time because their answers have to line up well with our threats. Adding wolf run to the must answer threat base is great at stretching their answers. Post board they have to decide if they really need to keep seas, which generally isn't great, or go heavier on removal.
It definitely happens, but personally I've not had much of an issue with them keeping me off utility lands permanently. Granted my experience is anecdotal, and I mostly only play on cockatrice and at lgs's where the competition isn't as good as larger tournaments, but for me the matchup has been quite favorable.
Township has priority? Always thought it would be Canopy . . . good to know
Canopy is really painful in multiples, hence sticking at 3. Personally, I wouldn't use more than 3 utility lands (and one plains) in a deck with only 22 lands due to increasing your risk of having to mull due to no green source. Even with 18 green sources, if you want to have 2 or more lands in hand with at
least one of them being green, you're only going to see that 75% of the time on 7 cards.
From personal experience of what works with the deck, I've decided to look for hands that, against an unknown opponent, are solid mana-wise and get out of the gate fast - so my general rule for keeping a 7-card hand is 2+ lands and 1+ dork, otherwise I mulligan it. I've also just started testing 2x Oath of Nissa in the main to improve early mana consistency (with the added benefit of some digging for combo pieces as well).
On 7 cards:
With 22 lands, we should hit 2+ lands 81% of the time. (on 6 it's 72%, not including the scry)
With 10 mana dorks we should 1+ dork 74% of the time. (on 6 it's 68%, not including the scry)
This means that 60% of starting hands should contain 2+ lands and 1+ dorks. (on 6 it's 49%, not including the scry).
So this means that about 80% the time we'll see a 6 or 7 card hand with 2+ lands and 1+ dork (not including the scry), and that number goes up to 89% if we keep any hand with 2+ lands on 6, knowing we still have a scry.
Now, some small percentage of hands that meet this criteria will be unkeepable due to mana source flood, lack of a green source, or be something useless like 3 lands, 2 dorks, 2 viziers, that decreases the keepable percentage by a small amount, which I'm going to guesstimate is maybe 5%?? So mulling to 5, which is still sometimes winnable with this deck, should happen less than 15% of the time (and even less than that if, like me, your willing to keep the occasional risky one-landers because the rest of the hand is perfect).
On 7, the odds of seeing a Druid in our starting hand is 40%, which means that 32% of hands will have 1+ druid and 2+ lands (these are the hands I almost always snap keep vs. an unknown deck). If you were to *really* aggressively mulligan any hand that doesn't have this configuration, you're still likely to be okay.
On 6, this is 35% to see a druid, and 25% to have a hand with 1+ druid and 2+ lands (and again, 49% to have a dork + 2 lands, not including the scry).
This means that with *really* aggressive mulling, we're about 49% to have a 6 or 7 with druid + 2 lands if we use this strategy, so 45%+ that's good enough to keep (not including scry on 6) where we'll be can cast t2 druid just based on what we have in our starting hand.
What all these numbers say to me is show the numerical evidence for aggressively mulliganing your draws, particular as potential t3 kill draws appear to be about two or three times as common as the times we end up mulling to 5 and have to keep whatever we get. After all, this is also *not* including draws that have lands, dorks and chords/cocos to hit druid for a t4 kill.
Went 3-1 last night at LGS with Naya. Beat jeskai copy cat 2-0, d&t 2-0 and burn 2-0, and lost to burn in round two 2-1. Mirror entity and kor firewalker were the MVPs as I had very few combo kills. The good news was that I was still winning despite mostly poor draws and a lot of mulligans due to mana screw. The caveat to that is that my d&t and copy cat opponents both made punts in g2 that, while they may have lost anyway, handed me the game, and my Rd 4 burn opponent flooded both games.
Ultimately, despite a decent record, last night was not a good showcase for how the deck plays - other than showing it's very good when piloted decently at the LGS level. I definitely can see how pros can be down on the druid/vizier combo for it's inconsistencies, despite the through-the-roof power level, when they're facing down opponents who aren't going to punt games away when faced with novel situations and board states.
Another local guy who plays a similar list to mine plays 4x oath of Nissa in his build, and while I'm not about to do that, I'm considering playing 2x, swapping out the md crusader (still very hit or miss) and commune with nature (which actually has been pretty good as a one-of), to improve the decks consistency in hitting dorks and land drops early.
Re: non graveyard-based value options at CMC 2 or 3 -- thanks for the suggestions, but yeah, not many good options - courser, for instance, is basically in the same boat as tracker in that it's very hit or miss due to not often generating any instant value, and yeah, elvish visionary is just not good. I guess I'm looking at another finks or a voice - though if I guess if I cut the mb crusader I could put that in trackers place instead. I may try leap, but am somewhat reluctant to take the plunge given I'm already playing 4 non creature spells in the board.
Currently I'm running a 2nd scooze in the sb, and that has been solid but not spectacular. Any ideas about other graveyard hate cards that are coco hits in Naya (other than loaming shaman)?
Playing wolf run helps the uw control matchup a lot; it's way better than gavony in top deck mode due to making every dude an instant threat, and each time they path one of your dudes the ramp makes subsequent activations better. Where wolf run falls flat sometimes is that its mana hungry and slow when your have to deal 10+ dmg - fortunately control decks give you lots of time!
My current approach to DS is to try to lower the curve some and add more value - I side out chords for paths and viziers for value creatures (ie Fink's).
Speaking of that though, does anyone have a suggestion about 2 or 3 drops in Naya that add value that aren't graveyard-based? I'm looking to supplement witness and sb Fink's and replace tireless tracker (which is very hit and miss). Ideally this creature would have 3+ toughness to avoid flaying tendrils.
This is gonna sound condescending probably but you should get canopies to play this deck.
Main downside to entity is no trample but it's got a ton of upside
Well there's no doubt that canopy is a great card here, however I just can't bring myself to drop the same kind of money on 2-3 of them that I would a goyf or lilli when I already don't own playsets of those. It's a card that's only played in a few decks (this, hatebears/d&t, boggles), and I'm sure it'll get reprinted (soonish?) and lose a ton of value instantly. And I've done well without them... But it does force me to play the deck a little differently than others who have canopies.
A few things I've learned about the deck include:
- you need to focus on mana advantage (it's how we get ahead as well as gain value from our numerous mana sinks), meaning I mull 7 card hands against an unknown opponent unless I have at least 2 lands and a dork
- similarly, outside of dork-heavy hands, I need to hit my first 3 land-drops and preferably first 4, which means witness to re-buy a fetch is a good play
- you stand a chance in games you flood out in, and virtually no chance when you get mana screwed - this appears to be true of virtually every matchup
- we're faster than basically every deck in the meta, so just keep throwing dorks and combo pieces out there and threaten combo, make your opponent answer them rather than advancing their own gamelan (rather than look for slow coco hands or trying to be the midrange/control deck in the matchups)
You know, I'd temporarily forgotten about mirror entity when I switched to abzan then back to Naya; I think entity is better than Rhonas - it's cheaper to activate meaningfully and does more damage in the mid-to-late game when you don't have the combo. The only real downside I see to it is costing white, which sometimes will suck if you have no open white mana when you hit combo, and the fact that it dies to bolt (but generally speaking, the creature Rhonas is pumping does too).
I don't own any horizon canopies and have found renegade rallier too mediocre without them to run - part of the reason I play Knight of the reliquary instead. Game 1 I use knights of the reliquary as a sort of Swiss army creature - they're combo piece tutors (for red Manas or wolf run), a pseudo dork, and lightning rods for removal, with backup function that the can lay the beats if necessary.
I wouldn't say the druid combo is strictly better - it's not instant speed and vizier is a less useful card by itself than anafeza or even viscera seer (which I think is actually underrated for its scry ability in value creature decks). It's definitely less susceptible to hate though. I think there's probably metas, ones loaded with bolts and light on graveyard hate (ie pre-splinter-twin ban meta), where the traditional combo is better. That being said, since dredge showed up, the traditional combos been a bad place to be and I'd currently take druid/vizier as the better combo.
Went 2-2 with my Naya list last night, losing a close one 1-2 to Grixis Death's shadow, then beating the pseudo-mirror, then losing to Esper Mill (!?!?!) because both games I led off Birds into Knight of the Reliquary and he drew and cast one of 3 Crypt Incursions (gaining about 30 life) just before I could swing for lethal (I delt him about 40 dmg each game), and then beat Boggles very easily (first time playing the matchup, seems incredibly one-sided for us).
Oddly enough, I find decks that cast path against me to be favorable matchups - probably because path ramps, and the deck runs tons of ways to utilize extra mana. The times I find I struggle are when I can't get ahead on mana and my opponent lands big threats early and starts beating down -- ie. Death's shadow decks when their gameplan goes the way they want -- kill all dorks, discard/counter cocos, play out 2+ fatties. Overall, like Pokken, seems to me that I'm about 50% or around there vs. those decks (DSJ, BGx), however the loses themselves can feel really bad because they're so lopsided in appearance -
ie. when they have 2 fatties and all you have are a couple grizzly bears who have to chump at some point. To be fair, though, a lot of my wins vs. other decks are pretty lopsided... probably just means the druid/vizier combo leads to a lot of lopsided-looking games.
I can totaly agree on the arguments about the mindset you both have. Regarding results is Abzan the way to go. It has taking some places in top 8 and is mostly played.
Next to that, it is always good to think about the fundamentations of the deck. My 5 cents are that it is a combo deck with midrange beatdown possibility. Jack of all indeed, but not a master of one.
I agree with pokken on card choices, six one mana dorks and four druid's acopanied with four finks/knight.
I am going to test the value company build from Todd. Azusa, Excavator and Ghost Quarter in a deck with Knight seems bonkers.
Certainly true that Abzan Combo Company has more results than Naya (or Bant) versions, but I've also not really seen anyone else playing Naya other than Pokken and another guy in my area who's doing really well with it. I'm okay with that; I'm doing pretty well with it and happy to be flying below the radar. The list I played last week is below.
Still on the fence about the Crusader in the main - when it's good it's amazing, and having a silver bullet against GBx and Death's Shadow is great, and I've won several games on one Crusader alone. But it's not great against anything else. I may move that to the sb, have 2 sb Crusaders, and drop a Tracker instead. Maybe put a 3rd Heirarch in? Dunno.
Phantasmal Image is not nearly as good in spirits as it is in humans. Humans has lots of ETB effects (Lieutenant, Champ, Reflector Mage, Freebooter), so even when you're playing against heavily interactive decks it has an impact on the board even if it's going to die soon. Spirits relies on more static effects (ie. Lord pump effects) or "sacrifice spirit: do something to annoy your opponent" effects, so Image dying to spot removal is a lot worse for spirits. In spirits it's one of the weaker cards, so it makes sense to side it out when you know what sideboard cards you should be bringing in. I don't like Image much, but just because you're siding it out in most post-board games doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be in your maindeck - pre-board games are more about doing *your* thing as quickly as possible, whereas post-board games the focus will likely shift to stop-them-from-doing-their-thing-until-you-can-do-your-thing.
Geist of Saint Traft is a powerful individual card, but doesn't fit with the general "team spirit" of spirits that's all about a synergizing group of flyers. The more copies of Geist you have, the more likely you're going to draw that dead 2nd copy.
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Eternal Witness
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Militia Bugler
2 Spellskite
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Eldritch Evolution
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Llanowar Elves is, obviously, the 9th dork, and could be something like an Eternal Witness but I've found that the games you start with a dork go so much better than the ones you don't (increases your chances to start with one from 65% to 70%, and having multiple dorks in play is also great vs. decks that aren't heavily interactive). Maindeck Eidolon of Rhetoric has been great in the matchups where it's good, and those matchups (ie. Storm, KCI, the new R/B Vengevine deck that's everywhere) are the kinds of decks that are traditionally very difficult for the deck to handle. Not sure about the 3/2 split between Chord of Calling and Eldritch Evolution, maybe should be 2/3 instead as it allows you to go a little faster (but opens up more 2-for-1's against grindy decks).
You'll notice no Tron hate - it's such a bad matchup I figure I'll just have to go-for broke with the combo and focus my sb on closer matchups.
I'm going to keep trying Topplegeist for now. I think the delirium is basically impossible pre-board, and still really hard to get post-board even if you're siding in Cast Out. We'll see how it goes as just a one-time tap effect.
I went through the same experience and process you did about phantasmal image- few ETB effects and a reliance on static effects makes it usually a very weak card in this shell (whereas it's a house in Humans due to the plethora of ETB effects). I also ended up on 2x Kira as she's so powerful against the decks we struggle against. Our current mb's are almost identical. Your sb is definitely different than mine and some of your sb tech looks very interesting - ie. the "combo" between Deprive in the sb and Irrigated Farmland in the main - very clever. I'm going to try out your sb list just to see what it's like.
For what it's worth, I've found tron basically unwinnable, so tried making as many of the spell lands into Field of Ruins. Guess what? The tron matchup felt slightly better... and it really hurt other matchups, like UW control and Mardu. Not worth it. Mutavault and Moorland Haunt are where it's at for Vial Spirits as far as utility lands go.
I think the real issue with the deck right now is the lack of good 1-drops to compliment Wanderer. I think if we get another playable 1-drop the deck becomes very good. The deck excels whenever we get out to a decent start, but games where our first play is Selfless Spirit or Supreme Phantom feel like an uphill battle every time. Even a Rattlechains start on the draw can be too slow.
I've off-and-on tried non-spirits in that slot, like Thraben Inspector, Opt, Serum Visions and Spell Pierce, all of which were okay but not great. Pierce was a house against combo decks and sometimes control decks, but very poor against creature decks and a bad topdeck late-game. Inspector was okay but pretty much just a chump blocker, which is not a great synergistic fit. The lack of being pumped by the Lords makes it not very good vs. combo or control. I may actually try Topplegiest as a 2-of, just to see if it's worth it (I doubt it but haven't tried it yet).
I forgot about that card! I've been playing Detention Sphere in the sb which has been decidedly okay. Cast Out is much more on-theme (flash) for the deck, as well as being cycle-able if you don't need it. I'm going to try that out.
Has anyone read the very recent Todd Anderson article on Starcity.com comparing Bant Spirits to Humans and can tell me what he said? I don't have premium so can't read it.
I think this seems worse in theory than it actually is in practice, though Spreading seas hurts more than gq or tec edge because I don't have a way to answer it pre-board. Witness is great for recurring your most relevant card, and chord and coco help find witness or Knight. Running 4x KotR significantly increases the number of times I find one of my 2x wolf run or 1x township, and you can always search out or play a utility land from hand to use immediately for one activation even if they have a live gq or tec edge.
This goes back to the idea that if we're presenting a lot of must-answer threats (druid, duskwatch, Knight, wolf run) that if not addressed care of take over the game, it gives control a tough time because their answers have to line up well with our threats. Adding wolf run to the must answer threat base is great at stretching their answers. Post board they have to decide if they really need to keep seas, which generally isn't great, or go heavier on removal.
It definitely happens, but personally I've not had much of an issue with them keeping me off utility lands permanently. Granted my experience is anecdotal, and I mostly only play on cockatrice and at lgs's where the competition isn't as good as larger tournaments, but for me the matchup has been quite favorable.
Canopy is really painful in multiples, hence sticking at 3. Personally, I wouldn't use more than 3 utility lands (and one plains) in a deck with only 22 lands due to increasing your risk of having to mull due to no green source. Even with 18 green sources, if you want to have 2 or more lands in hand with at
least one of them being green, you're only going to see that 75% of the time on 7 cards.
Out of curiosity, I ran some numbers using a hypergeometric calculator - http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
On 7 cards:
With 22 lands, we should hit 2+ lands 81% of the time. (on 6 it's 72%, not including the scry)
With 10 mana dorks we should 1+ dork 74% of the time. (on 6 it's 68%, not including the scry)
This means that 60% of starting hands should contain 2+ lands and 1+ dorks. (on 6 it's 49%, not including the scry).
So this means that about 80% the time we'll see a 6 or 7 card hand with 2+ lands and 1+ dork (not including the scry), and that number goes up to 89% if we keep any hand with 2+ lands on 6, knowing we still have a scry.
Now, some small percentage of hands that meet this criteria will be unkeepable due to mana source flood, lack of a green source, or be something useless like 3 lands, 2 dorks, 2 viziers, that decreases the keepable percentage by a small amount, which I'm going to guesstimate is maybe 5%?? So mulling to 5, which is still sometimes winnable with this deck, should happen less than 15% of the time (and even less than that if, like me, your willing to keep the occasional risky one-landers because the rest of the hand is perfect).
On 7, the odds of seeing a Druid in our starting hand is 40%, which means that 32% of hands will have 1+ druid and 2+ lands (these are the hands I almost always snap keep vs. an unknown deck). If you were to *really* aggressively mulligan any hand that doesn't have this configuration, you're still likely to be okay.
On 6, this is 35% to see a druid, and 25% to have a hand with 1+ druid and 2+ lands (and again, 49% to have a dork + 2 lands, not including the scry).
This means that with *really* aggressive mulling, we're about 49% to have a 6 or 7 with druid + 2 lands if we use this strategy, so 45%+ that's good enough to keep (not including scry on 6) where we'll be can cast t2 druid just based on what we have in our starting hand.
What all these numbers say to me is show the numerical evidence for aggressively mulliganing your draws, particular as potential t3 kill draws appear to be about two or three times as common as the times we end up mulling to 5 and have to keep whatever we get. After all, this is also *not* including draws that have lands, dorks and chords/cocos to hit druid for a t4 kill.
Ultimately, despite a decent record, last night was not a good showcase for how the deck plays - other than showing it's very good when piloted decently at the LGS level. I definitely can see how pros can be down on the druid/vizier combo for it's inconsistencies, despite the through-the-roof power level, when they're facing down opponents who aren't going to punt games away when faced with novel situations and board states.
Another local guy who plays a similar list to mine plays 4x oath of Nissa in his build, and while I'm not about to do that, I'm considering playing 2x, swapping out the md crusader (still very hit or miss) and commune with nature (which actually has been pretty good as a one-of), to improve the decks consistency in hitting dorks and land drops early.
Re: non graveyard-based value options at CMC 2 or 3 -- thanks for the suggestions, but yeah, not many good options - courser, for instance, is basically in the same boat as tracker in that it's very hit or miss due to not often generating any instant value, and yeah, elvish visionary is just not good. I guess I'm looking at another finks or a voice - though if I guess if I cut the mb crusader I could put that in trackers place instead. I may try leap, but am somewhat reluctant to take the plunge given I'm already playing 4 non creature spells in the board.
Currently I'm running a 2nd scooze in the sb, and that has been solid but not spectacular. Any ideas about other graveyard hate cards that are coco hits in Naya (other than loaming shaman)?
My current approach to DS is to try to lower the curve some and add more value - I side out chords for paths and viziers for value creatures (ie Fink's).
Speaking of that though, does anyone have a suggestion about 2 or 3 drops in Naya that add value that aren't graveyard-based? I'm looking to supplement witness and sb Fink's and replace tireless tracker (which is very hit and miss). Ideally this creature would have 3+ toughness to avoid flaying tendrils.
Well there's no doubt that canopy is a great card here, however I just can't bring myself to drop the same kind of money on 2-3 of them that I would a goyf or lilli when I already don't own playsets of those. It's a card that's only played in a few decks (this, hatebears/d&t, boggles), and I'm sure it'll get reprinted (soonish?) and lose a ton of value instantly. And I've done well without them... But it does force me to play the deck a little differently than others who have canopies.
A few things I've learned about the deck include:
- you need to focus on mana advantage (it's how we get ahead as well as gain value from our numerous mana sinks), meaning I mull 7 card hands against an unknown opponent unless I have at least 2 lands and a dork
- similarly, outside of dork-heavy hands, I need to hit my first 3 land-drops and preferably first 4, which means witness to re-buy a fetch is a good play
- you stand a chance in games you flood out in, and virtually no chance when you get mana screwed - this appears to be true of virtually every matchup
- we're faster than basically every deck in the meta, so just keep throwing dorks and combo pieces out there and threaten combo, make your opponent answer them rather than advancing their own gamelan (rather than look for slow coco hands or trying to be the midrange/control deck in the matchups)
I don't own any horizon canopies and have found renegade rallier too mediocre without them to run - part of the reason I play Knight of the reliquary instead. Game 1 I use knights of the reliquary as a sort of Swiss army creature - they're combo piece tutors (for red Manas or wolf run), a pseudo dork, and lightning rods for removal, with backup function that the can lay the beats if necessary.
Oddly enough, I find decks that cast path against me to be favorable matchups - probably because path ramps, and the deck runs tons of ways to utilize extra mana. The times I find I struggle are when I can't get ahead on mana and my opponent lands big threats early and starts beating down -- ie. Death's shadow decks when their gameplan goes the way they want -- kill all dorks, discard/counter cocos, play out 2+ fatties. Overall, like Pokken, seems to me that I'm about 50% or around there vs. those decks (DSJ, BGx), however the loses themselves can feel really bad because they're so lopsided in appearance -
ie. when they have 2 fatties and all you have are a couple grizzly bears who have to chump at some point. To be fair, though, a lot of my wins vs. other decks are pretty lopsided... probably just means the druid/vizier combo leads to a lot of lopsided-looking games.
Certainly true that Abzan Combo Company has more results than Naya (or Bant) versions, but I've also not really seen anyone else playing Naya other than Pokken and another guy in my area who's doing really well with it. I'm okay with that; I'm doing pretty well with it and happy to be flying below the radar. The list I played last week is below.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
3 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
2 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gavony Township
Sorcery
1 Commune with Nature
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Lone Missionary
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
Still on the fence about the Crusader in the main - when it's good it's amazing, and having a silver bullet against GBx and Death's Shadow is great, and I've won several games on one Crusader alone. But it's not great against anything else. I may move that to the sb, have 2 sb Crusaders, and drop a Tracker instead. Maybe put a 3rd Heirarch in? Dunno.