If we can combine this somehow with Sage of Hours and Vorel of the Hull Clade, we could get infinite turns/mana. Since the deck would need to put counters on Sage to begin with, it could put counters on any creature, so even without infinite turns, you could get infinitely large critter. Hero of Leina Tower would work well even without Vorel. Those would have to be your only green creatures, though, to get to 6 blue devotion.
Satyr will be a staple. Control and midrange decks want a cheap fattie to block aggro and give them time to stabilize. Forcing the opponent to waste a burn spell to clear the way is an acceptable tradeoff of defense vs getting burned to the head late game. Now, the burn spell still hits you in the head AND your blocker is swept away. Early game, this is a huge gain for the aggro deck. Having him be bigger than a 1/1 would have been broken.
These are all turn 3 answers to Kiora in Standard and we still don't have BOG out yet. Yeah...she isn't looking so hot for standard. She is basically a 4 mana cost version Azorius Ploy that doesn't let you target two different creatures and is mythic....
Lol, almost all of those are T3 answers to JTMS as well. I'm sure if they reprinted that card you'd be using this argument to say he wasn't looking so hot for standard.
The reason "doing 4 damage turn 2" is a "bad thing" for this deck (Mono-Black Devotion) is it takes away a lot of the game plan that this deck revolves around. We don't need to end games fast. We have a very tuned list that can deal with almost every deck in the meta. An aggro version is pretty much an entirely different deck at this point, because the amount of development and discussion that has gone into this list has made it very solid.
Here's the thing: This is the "Black Devotion" thread. Until it earns it's own forum space, where there can be discussion threads started, such as "Black Devotion Aggro", then there is no "This deck" discussion going on in this thread: ie, no "one" deck owns this thread. Discussion of variants of Black Devotion belong here until/if such time as the mods open up its own forum space and variants can be separated into their own threads.
So his discussion of aggro variants belongs here. Your version of Black Devotion isn't exclusive. It may - or may not - prove to be a better deck, but discussion is not limited to just the version the most work fine tuning has gone into.
T1: Cackler
T2: BTE, BTE, Firefist Striker, swing for 2.
T3: Chandra's Phoenix. If Firefist is not dead, ignore a blocker. Swing for up to ten!
T4: Fanatic of Moglis. If all of the above creatures are alive, they take nine damage and are now dead. If they aren't, you can still swing for ten again, then fourteen next turn, and that's after you play any other haste creatures or burn spells.
RDW has tons of haste creatures, can spew out several creatures on T2 with Burning-Tree Emissary which also makes it harder to slow down, has reach in the form of burn, and can bring back Chandra's Phoenix over and over again with that burn (or Chandra, Pyromaster). What can you do that RDW can't? Given an exact same situation, where do you succeed where RDW fails?
You're comparing apples to oranges - and I haven't even seen the guys aggro black devotion list!!!
His critters have black, don't need red mana sources. The rdw scenario you give doesn't have a removal option. If one did remove something, say T3, at best rdw could use lightning strike, which won't help vs DD will it? Black Devotion aggro, however, could use Devour Flesh as one of several options.
What else could - let's call it BDW (Black Deck Wins) - do that RDW can't? Draw. The primary failing of RDW is it shoots its load and then it's done. BDW has draw. BDW had Whip, which is a form of card advantage, making all your critters a one time Chandra's Phoenix and helping you reuse your Gray Sage.
So discuss the virtues and failings of BDW on its own merits, not on the merits of RDW. You're just being constipated in the head.
I would put a set of these lands on my deck just to make sure I'll get the best odds early or late game, when necessary. Best 100% ETB tapped lands ever other than Worldwake's allied manlands.
Pros
Early game, to put on the bottom nonland cards to increase the probability of getting a land.
Late game, to put on the bottom the land card to increase the probability of getting an answer.
Cons
Enters the battlefield tapped, who cares about that other than Aggro Decks.
Wizards decided not to make it Scry 2, that would make these lands very powerful. Preordain without a draw in a land is such ridiculous.
Who care about cipt other than aggro? Aggro cares Least about that because aggro wouldn't be stupid enough to PLAY these piles of dung. CONTROL gets screwed by a card that cipt. You can't miss a land drop in control because you have to be able to play your answers. Cipt is like being one turn behind the aggro deck that's putting on pressure.
And guess who needs dual lands the most? Control. Ever see a mono control deck much? Uh, uh, didn't think so.
Magic is getting so dumbed down for the masses that it makes me sick.
While Ashiok is a little slower than most cards in the deck, it does seem good against aggro decks. Imagine playing augur of bolas turn two and then turn three playing Ashiok. Your opponent can continue smashing your face in while you mill them more and more or they can try to deal with your walker while your augur blocks 2/x creatures which makes for good stalling. Then you can create more blockers using Ashiok's -X.
Ashiok isn't a good mill card. If you use him for that you not only aren't using him correctly, you're wasting the slot that would be better suited for Jace in that role.
Everyone going on about using Ashiok to mill should just stop. His first ability is for the sole purpose of setting up his second ability and his playability is entirely dependent upon you being able to protect him for at least one turn and the value of having him soak up damage.
This PW is only as good as the card your opponent is playing, with no guarantee of quality it seems pretty weak.
Against mid range it likely gets humped by an angel or dragon, keeping in mind they don't actually have to kill it for it do nothing (good luck getting a voice into play with 1 counter on it.)
Unlike other planeswalkers that have a durdly + but a very powerful - (JAoT, Vraska) this one has no way to "dissuade" the odd snipe to keep it checked, which becomes a problem vs mid range as their creatures usually hit hard and they can afford to send one 3/x at it just to keep it low.
Control seems like it could be good, but with them printing a hard counter for it and the advent of detention sphere we shall see.
If your opponent isn't playing good cards what are you worried about?
It doesn't "likely" get humped by anything because you're playing control (UB) vs midrange. It might get hit, but then, it's buying you time, which is also important. If you can't keep it alive vs midrange in the first place, obviously you can't keep yourself alive either and you'd rather they wasted time hitting him than hitting you.
The ultimate is pretty irrelevant, which seems to be a trend in planeswalkers recently. But let's face it, many planeswalkers ultimates are just gravy to begin with.
Your vs control argument is the typical "dies to removal" argument. Sure, they can counter it or DSphere it. Guess you should not play Aetherling cuz they can counter it or anything else cuz they can DSphere it.
With Aristocrats rotating that King is a bit lonely, not being able to shock creatures knocks him down imo.
That Dimir walker looks like oodles of fun, I also think he is underrated, dropping that on turn 3 with 5 loyalty is going to cause a lot of decks some hard decisions!
That's what people aren't getting. "Aggro deck will just kill it". Uh huh, and that FIVE damage didn't go to your face. That's huge. That's time to build your manabase. They don't kill it? Next turn it grabs a cheap weenie from the aggro deck to block and slow them down while you now have mana to deal with the others. whether they kill it or not, that's on the road to stabilizing.
Now what happens vs a mid range deck? Control has less threats to deal with, meaning you can protect it better, meaning you have time to grab some nasty midrange critters and at +2, that will happen fairly quickly and fairly large critters.
Vs control? It has plenty of time to dig through and grab an uncounterable Aetherling, etc. All the while screwing with Scry. And that's the one matchup where its ultimate can come in handy.
Its graveyard exiling seems the weakest to me. It's ultimate is only narrowly useful, but its first two abilities are very interesting and I think will make it very playable.
I don't know if it will find a home in a UB constructed playable deck, mostly because GR is going to rule standard and who knows if UB will be even playable or in what form. But in a vacuum, it looks decently playable. Better than most people are giving it credit for.
What exactly are you acceling into? He only gives you mana if you have creatures in play, and the decks that play 1-3 drops don't have high costing stuff.
That being said, a 2/2 haster every turn is very appealing.
yeah, cuz mana dorks in an accel deck aren't a thing and the other Satyr isn't a card, there aren't any cheap Monstrous dudes and you can't build a deck with large AND small critters.
IMO, combo decks are the whole point of Magic and control being able to stop combo decks the whole point of control and aggro being able to bumrush control the whole point of aggro, and combo being able to beat out aggro making it the perfect game.
Until, of course, they decided all they want to pander to are guys who like to tap cardboard and swing.
If we can combine this somehow with Sage of Hours and Vorel of the Hull Clade, we could get infinite turns/mana. Since the deck would need to put counters on Sage to begin with, it could put counters on any creature, so even without infinite turns, you could get infinitely large critter. Hero of Leina Tower would work well even without Vorel. Those would have to be your only green creatures, though, to get to 6 blue devotion.
Lol, almost all of those are T3 answers to JTMS as well. I'm sure if they reprinted that card you'd be using this argument to say he wasn't looking so hot for standard.
Here's the thing: This is the "Black Devotion" thread. Until it earns it's own forum space, where there can be discussion threads started, such as "Black Devotion Aggro", then there is no "This deck" discussion going on in this thread: ie, no "one" deck owns this thread. Discussion of variants of Black Devotion belong here until/if such time as the mods open up its own forum space and variants can be separated into their own threads.
So his discussion of aggro variants belongs here. Your version of Black Devotion isn't exclusive. It may - or may not - prove to be a better deck, but discussion is not limited to just the version the most work fine tuning has gone into.
You're comparing apples to oranges - and I haven't even seen the guys aggro black devotion list!!!
His critters have black, don't need red mana sources. The rdw scenario you give doesn't have a removal option. If one did remove something, say T3, at best rdw could use lightning strike, which won't help vs DD will it? Black Devotion aggro, however, could use Devour Flesh as one of several options.
What else could - let's call it BDW (Black Deck Wins) - do that RDW can't? Draw. The primary failing of RDW is it shoots its load and then it's done. BDW has draw. BDW had Whip, which is a form of card advantage, making all your critters a one time Chandra's Phoenix and helping you reuse your Gray Sage.
So discuss the virtues and failings of BDW on its own merits, not on the merits of RDW. You're just being constipated in the head.
Who care about cipt other than aggro? Aggro cares Least about that because aggro wouldn't be stupid enough to PLAY these piles of dung. CONTROL gets screwed by a card that cipt. You can't miss a land drop in control because you have to be able to play your answers. Cipt is like being one turn behind the aggro deck that's putting on pressure.
And guess who needs dual lands the most? Control. Ever see a mono control deck much? Uh, uh, didn't think so.
Magic is getting so dumbed down for the masses that it makes me sick.
Ashiok isn't a good mill card. If you use him for that you not only aren't using him correctly, you're wasting the slot that would be better suited for Jace in that role.
Everyone going on about using Ashiok to mill should just stop. His first ability is for the sole purpose of setting up his second ability and his playability is entirely dependent upon you being able to protect him for at least one turn and the value of having him soak up damage.
If your opponent isn't playing good cards what are you worried about?
It doesn't "likely" get humped by anything because you're playing control (UB) vs midrange. It might get hit, but then, it's buying you time, which is also important. If you can't keep it alive vs midrange in the first place, obviously you can't keep yourself alive either and you'd rather they wasted time hitting him than hitting you.
The ultimate is pretty irrelevant, which seems to be a trend in planeswalkers recently. But let's face it, many planeswalkers ultimates are just gravy to begin with.
Your vs control argument is the typical "dies to removal" argument. Sure, they can counter it or DSphere it. Guess you should not play Aetherling cuz they can counter it or anything else cuz they can DSphere it.
That's what people aren't getting. "Aggro deck will just kill it". Uh huh, and that FIVE damage didn't go to your face. That's huge. That's time to build your manabase. They don't kill it? Next turn it grabs a cheap weenie from the aggro deck to block and slow them down while you now have mana to deal with the others. whether they kill it or not, that's on the road to stabilizing.
Now what happens vs a mid range deck? Control has less threats to deal with, meaning you can protect it better, meaning you have time to grab some nasty midrange critters and at +2, that will happen fairly quickly and fairly large critters.
Vs control? It has plenty of time to dig through and grab an uncounterable Aetherling, etc. All the while screwing with Scry. And that's the one matchup where its ultimate can come in handy.
Its graveyard exiling seems the weakest to me. It's ultimate is only narrowly useful, but its first two abilities are very interesting and I think will make it very playable.
I don't know if it will find a home in a UB constructed playable deck, mostly because GR is going to rule standard and who knows if UB will be even playable or in what form. But in a vacuum, it looks decently playable. Better than most people are giving it credit for.
yeah, cuz mana dorks in an accel deck aren't a thing and the other Satyr isn't a card, there aren't any cheap Monstrous dudes and you can't build a deck with large AND small critters.
Until, of course, they decided all they want to pander to are guys who like to tap cardboard and swing.