Been struggling online vs Grixis Shadow, 0-3 in matches so far recently on MTGO against it.
I side out 4x bolt, 3x inquisition of kozilek and add 3x fulminator, 1 push,1 EE, 2 Nihil Spellbomb and it seems like most games starts wit them using IOK/TS to strip away a goyf/removal spell, land an angler and by the time i deal with it( i have 3x LOTV and 3x Assassin's Trophy)they can protect it or just deploy multiple shadows. I don't seem to be able to keep up with their sources of card advantage like multiple baubles and wraiths, plus snapcaster on fatal push for goyfs/bobs is awful. It says GBx is supposed to be favored overall in the matchup but I don't feel that way. Would love some advice for the matchup. I try and take delve threats/shadow with discard pre-board but postboard i take out discard for more threats but it doesn't seem to work well.
Your SB plan is alright, you could maybe cut 1 Ooze and leave in one more IoK instead if you want as Ooze is often understated and only stops Snapcaster. However, I think your plan is good. Just to mention, card advantage is only Snapcaster from the ones you listed. Baubles and Wraiths only cycle and don't generate CA.
It can be tough if it happens, but maybe your sequencing needs work in that matchup. Also, the scenarios you are describing is also pretty close to nut draw from them, which could also indicate that you have had bad luck. I would simply play that matchup a little more, you will then figure out how to effectively play around their disruption.
Do you guys really want to play Manamorphose when Humans is still around? Not a great BBE target, you don't need the color fixing, you aren't really filling the yard to help Goyf out.
Good points, Thalia and BBE makes Manamorphose also quite bad.
Is everyone mostly on 24-land lists? I just noticed that Jaberwocki had two different 24-land list hit a 5-0 on MTGO lately. They both have a few significant differences in the main and sideboard. It just makes me wonder if we're supposed to abandon 25-land lists.
Whenever the mana curve allows it, I am playing 24 lands. Jaberwocki does play many one drops (twelve I believe?) which is good, but I think 4 BBE and 7-8 three drops are pretty questionable for a 24 landbase. But maybe he just accepts that and wants to be on the risky side. What does help, when you have many 1 drops, that you are more fine with operatating on 3 or 4 lands only, as you are still very likely to double spell then.
Has anyone thought about Manamorphose for card draw? It is obviously an incredibly powerful card that can fix our mana for double black, and essentially makes our deck 56 cards allowing us to see the answers we need. Just trying to brainstorm for us all.
The problem with that card is you preemptively commit to use at least 2 mana if you cycle it. It doesn't work well with reactive cards. In that case its sometimes very awkward. In general though, I am not against experimenting with it. How would you incoorporate it inot the deck?
I look at manamorphose like a free card to cycle. If it get's countered then I feel like the spell you would've played in it's place would probably have been countered as well. I could see the issue of deciding what mana to create with it be an issue though. I would start by cutting 1 LotV, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Assassin's Trophy, and 1 Inquisition of Kozilek. Picking those cards just because they are more limited in what they can do. Not entirely sure what to pick other than saying our four worst or most narrow cards though. Again just throwing out ideas for any way to improve the deck. Perhaps the best answer is to just be as good as Reid Duke, though that seems like quite a long shot for me.
I didn't mean that Manamorphose gets coutnered, I mean it doesnt work well with our own reactive cards. You cant play Manamorphose on turn 2 to dig for a goyf/bob when you might end up not being able to hold up Push. And that makes it awkward to some extent, as you kinda have to wait for it until you are going to cast a spell anyway. At least in the early game.
Has anyone thought about Manamorphose for card draw? It is obviously an incredibly powerful card that can fix our mana for double black, and essentially makes our deck 56 cards allowing us to see the answers we need. Just trying to brainstorm for us all.
The problem with that card is you preemptively commit to use at least 2 mana if you cycle it. It doesn't work well with reactive cards. In that case its sometimes very awkward. In general though, I am not against experimenting with it. How would you incoorporate it inot the deck?
Hey FlyingDelver I was wondering if you were gonna add a matchup guide for hardened scales affinity in the primer? I've been struggling with it, I don't run any leyline of the void in my sideboard to shut off the modular triggers. I trim LOTV and thoughtseize.
I try not to think of Looting like this. Or any looting effect really. It's a bit of a trap. If you're happy with the cards in your hand, you don't have to cast it. Maybe that means what you cut for it is better in that moment, but maybe not. Additionally, treat the top 2 cards of your deck as if they're random, even after you draw them. If they're not clearly better in your current situation than what you already have, they're the ones that get binned. Don't think about what they are. Treat it like "R: Mill 2". Although I may have just talked myself out of this, since "R: Mill 2" sounds absolutely terrible.
I didnt mean to cast looting on occasion either. If you are happy with the cards you have then surely you should never cast looting. however, lets say you happen to face a problem where you need to dig for specific asnwers, you do it, and discard other cards which still might be relevant in the matchup, but just aren't now. If you deal with the problem then and the situation comes up where you would have needed the discarded card then, its pretty counterproductive in a way. And thats the problem. You cant predict the future and can only make guesses of which cards you might need. Of coruse there are situations where you can just judge based on what would be most devastating and play around that. The problem here is that the linear decks not only demand specific answer to dig for, but also many many answers. We might solve the issue of the quality of what to find with looting, but certainly not the quantity.
Hello all, I've been through this thread for a long time, but without any comments. I'm on Jund boat since I got my Goyfs few years ago (old POD player, but we know, where the pod is...) I've read all the debates about 24 or 25 land manabase and ideal count of spells and so on. I may have some heretical thoughts, which I would like to share, hoping I'll not end burning at the stake
I know, we are heavily mana dependant and for consistency we need bunch of lands, but for what? To be able to attack on T5 with ravine? Honestly, many of my last games, I was almost upset, when I had to play ravine. What do we want? T1 discard or mana open to push or bolt, T2 play Bob or Goyf, T3 LotV or some removal + discard, T4 BBE. Where the hell is the option to T5 attack with ravine?
From my experience, every turn I didn't play something, I lost, or was very close to losing. There are situations, where you can stick tapped ravine on T1 and be happy with that, but they are rare.
For the filtering, there is not much options for us to filter our card draw, excpet for Grim Flayer and even with filtering we do what? Cast looting and maybe something, spend one turn doing nothiing, just filtering our cards, it simply doesn't seem right.
So my heretical ideas are - completely cut all ravines, therefore we shouldn't need 25 lands to support them.
Go down to 22 or 21 land build.
Fill new slots with handy creatures or disruption.
We are too slow to be aggro, but not slow and strong enough to be control. We want to play the long game, but unfortunately, we run out of gas as aggro deck used to do. So maybe we should try how to speed up our game plan a bit? Except the way that Jund DS goes.
I've always been the rebelling one so don't judge me too harsh
The problem with that is that you don't need the 24-25 lands due to ravine mainly. Its just the coloured sources which needs the high land count and the ability to hit landdrop 3 and 4 on time. If you decrease the landcount to 21 from 24, you are loosing an incredible 10 % of chance to consistantly hit landdrop number 4. So you could play no 4 drops then. However, the next issue is then that you also want to not play too many 2 drops. Why? Because we want to consistantly be able to do 2 things on a given turn (double spelling) and if you have many 2 drops, then you want to cast 2 of them on a given turn for sure. So you would need to focus on mainly one drops, some 2 drops and then some 3 drops in order to do that. The thing is, if you play 21-22 lands only, then it statistically means you are subscribing to the fact that you will have 2 lands on turn 2 often, but don't heavily rely on land 3 that much. If that is fine with your curve and the plan you have, then sure, I am not against it. In fact I am curous on how you would build the deck in that case then. So if you have got specific ideas don't hesitate to throw them at us
Olivia unforuntaley dies to the most played removal spell in the format: Bolt. At 4 Mana, I need a little bit of resistance against Bolt I think. Otherwise the tempo loss is too extreme. And wating until turn 6 in order to play around it is crazy of course.
Why the need to go "all-in" on Looting if you're looking to include it? Why not just jam 3 copies into a stock list and make sure you're also playing 3-4 K-Command? Helps a tad with card velocity, helps filter the "wrong half" of the deck, and is an easy 3-of to side out in games 2 and 3 of almost every match. I'd treat it as a game 1 only boost.
I mean I tried that, but often times you really have the case where you are actually unhappy to loot, as there are many matchups where cards in your hand could become relevant in a later point of the game but aren't right now. At that point you have to decide to either ditch those cards into the bin or start binning lands, which is also not the thing you want to do ideally. If there would be some safe card to discard, like Souls provides in Mardu, then it works better. This is of course meaning the front side of Looting here. I think the backside is especially strong and usually doesn't require deckbuilding as in the lategame you can just ditch topdecked lands for sure.
I can respect that. I was living a hypothetical dream for a moment. It just seems that Modern is more interactive than Legacy, and for some reason, they want to make creatures matter in Legacy all of a sudden. Maybe this isn't forum for ban list talk. I think I was warned about that once.
I think Legacy is more interactive than modern. At least right now.
Cutting BBE is certainly not off the table and might be the correct move. At least one copy should be exchanged by Kalitas for sure. About Huntmaster, I think this card slowly gets in the unplayable category for me. The fact that he hardly does something to help against the opposing flying creatures is a real problem for me. The same thing goes for Finks lately. I don't want a 4 mana or 3 mana gain 2 life and then do nothing more really.
I personally am liking Pia and Kiran Nalaar quite a bit. It actually does something as it blocks opposing flyers, and can serve as extra removals which we need. Also works well with LtLH and KCommand.
I disagree about delirium being easily activated. Grim Flayer is in general a card that works pretty well when you are ahead, but is incredibly bad when you are behind and dont have delirium. I think one can be really biased on Flayer depending on the personal experience. But I wouldnt count on him as an active filtering tool for our deck, as its too inconsistant.
Grim Flayer is just way to unrealiable and bad to be played imo. It gets blocked by almost anything and you don't want to be attacking when you want to defend against aggro on average. This in combination with the fact that delirium is just way to hard to consistantly have active, this is a hard pass for me.
Going to a Mardu list and replacing Souls with GOyf unfortunaltey doesnt work. I have tried it actually. You need some kind of payoff in order to make the front side of Looting appealing. And when thats missing often thats a big liability.
I think right now the only option to have is just looting. But this kinda means we need to cut Bob. We would want to play delve threats or Bedlam Reveler. Discovery is a nice cards as its a preordain in our colours, but 2 mana is just way to much. Its hard to compete on the long term without help.
For me there are 3 strong categories which are essentially the best decks in the modern format, and all those evolve around one of 3 cards: Ancient Stirrings, Looting and Noble Hierarch.
What we would need imo is strong card selection spells which lets us keep up with opponents and doesnt require specific deckbuilding like looting. We need more consistancy and more ways to reduce our wrong answers or to late answers problem.
I agree with that. Thats observation about modern is what I am also always arguing about when it comes down to talking consistancy in our deck. Thats the reason I am a big advocate for being as much consistant as possible.
This trend certainly has gotten true when probe was banned and push was printed. And it will continue like that. That being said, I think we as a fair deck have a chance if we abuse metagaming to max value, or if proper cards are printed. In a format like legacy, where crazy degenerate things are possible, we see that fair decks can stll be good. However, the way wizards prints cards, we wont get help as they dont like to print individual powerful cards. They are printing more synergy driven cards. And that will eventually make it really tough for us.
Right now tough, i am personally still fine with humans and spirits. I am yet happy to face it as my deck feels strong against them (still). But I am not sure how long it will take until that changes.
Thanks so much the Primer! Just getting into the Rock scene here and have found it to be quite helpful. Going to give it a shot at my LGS this week.
Question about your s/b guide for Runaway Red... Would you consider Damping Sphere in this MU to limit their ability to cast the spells required to get back Phoenix?
Also - would cutting LOTV be advisable on account of Fiery Temper?
Cheers
I think LoTV is strong enough to keep, despite Fiery Temper. And yeah, Damping Sphere seems like a good card against them, haven't thought about that yet.
Hey guys, I have been lurking here for several years now. I just thought I would finally post because I feel that I have enough games of Jund to actually be somewhat knowledgeable.
The deck is extremely difficult to pilot. My girlfriend plays Burn, so she finishes her games quickly and easily. With this deck, no game is easy I have found. This deck also seems to have wild swings of power and despair. I'll finish a league 4-1 or 5-0. Then the next league, I'll finish 0-5. Very odd. I seem to struggle the most with lands. I run the 24 land build, and I either flood out, or have a major mana drought. It is very frustrating to lose constantly due to lack of spells/mana. I have considered going to 22 lands or something because I rarely drought but mostly flood, even though in the back of my mind, I know that is insane.
I recently went 5-0 in a competitive league. I bested Mono G Tron, Grixis Death Shadow, Mono G Tron, Merfolk, and Humans. All games were difficult. I was very proud of my achievement. Then the very next league, I go 0-5, losing to Death Shadow and Mono G Tron 4 straight times!
Anyways, sorry for the rant/whatever I just posted lol. Keep up the good discussion and I would like to thank FlyingDelver in particular. You're match up analysis is very accurate and I study it everyday, it has made the Jund game much more clearer for me.
If you guys could give me any heads up or tips, I would greatly appreciate it. I am in the process of trying to find a locals around me that plays Modern format that actually fits my schedule. I think I finally found a place that my girlfriend and I can go to a couple of times a month and we are excited.
Jund em out fellas!
Great to have you here, and nice on the 5-0 finish! Don't worry about the 0-5, that happens. Since we play fair magic, we are signing up for that kind of variance naturally. The best thing to do is focus on your overall win% record among all matches you play, that is more accurate of how the deck will on average perform. Having a spreadsheet with all data in it helps for that.
If you are interested in an compact SB guide, the link is in the primer, which you can download and use on the fly.
Your SB plan is alright, you could maybe cut 1 Ooze and leave in one more IoK instead if you want as Ooze is often understated and only stops Snapcaster. However, I think your plan is good. Just to mention, card advantage is only Snapcaster from the ones you listed. Baubles and Wraiths only cycle and don't generate CA.
It can be tough if it happens, but maybe your sequencing needs work in that matchup. Also, the scenarios you are describing is also pretty close to nut draw from them, which could also indicate that you have had bad luck. I would simply play that matchup a little more, you will then figure out how to effectively play around their disruption.
Good points, Thalia and BBE makes Manamorphose also quite bad.
Whenever the mana curve allows it, I am playing 24 lands. Jaberwocki does play many one drops (twelve I believe?) which is good, but I think 4 BBE and 7-8 three drops are pretty questionable for a 24 landbase. But maybe he just accepts that and wants to be on the risky side. What does help, when you have many 1 drops, that you are more fine with operatating on 3 or 4 lands only, as you are still very likely to double spell then.
I didn't mean that Manamorphose gets coutnered, I mean it doesnt work well with our own reactive cards. You cant play Manamorphose on turn 2 to dig for a goyf/bob when you might end up not being able to hold up Push. And that makes it awkward to some extent, as you kinda have to wait for it until you are going to cast a spell anyway. At least in the early game.
The problem with that card is you preemptively commit to use at least 2 mana if you cycle it. It doesn't work well with reactive cards. In that case its sometimes very awkward. In general though, I am not against experimenting with it. How would you incoorporate it inot the deck?
Yeah I will add the matchup!
I didnt mean to cast looting on occasion either. If you are happy with the cards you have then surely you should never cast looting. however, lets say you happen to face a problem where you need to dig for specific asnwers, you do it, and discard other cards which still might be relevant in the matchup, but just aren't now. If you deal with the problem then and the situation comes up where you would have needed the discarded card then, its pretty counterproductive in a way. And thats the problem. You cant predict the future and can only make guesses of which cards you might need. Of coruse there are situations where you can just judge based on what would be most devastating and play around that. The problem here is that the linear decks not only demand specific answer to dig for, but also many many answers. We might solve the issue of the quality of what to find with looting, but certainly not the quantity.
The problem with that is that you don't need the 24-25 lands due to ravine mainly. Its just the coloured sources which needs the high land count and the ability to hit landdrop 3 and 4 on time. If you decrease the landcount to 21 from 24, you are loosing an incredible 10 % of chance to consistantly hit landdrop number 4. So you could play no 4 drops then. However, the next issue is then that you also want to not play too many 2 drops. Why? Because we want to consistantly be able to do 2 things on a given turn (double spelling) and if you have many 2 drops, then you want to cast 2 of them on a given turn for sure. So you would need to focus on mainly one drops, some 2 drops and then some 3 drops in order to do that. The thing is, if you play 21-22 lands only, then it statistically means you are subscribing to the fact that you will have 2 lands on turn 2 often, but don't heavily rely on land 3 that much. If that is fine with your curve and the plan you have, then sure, I am not against it. In fact I am curous on how you would build the deck in that case then. So if you have got specific ideas don't hesitate to throw them at us
Olivia unforuntaley dies to the most played removal spell in the format: Bolt. At 4 Mana, I need a little bit of resistance against Bolt I think. Otherwise the tempo loss is too extreme. And wating until turn 6 in order to play around it is crazy of course.
I mean I tried that, but often times you really have the case where you are actually unhappy to loot, as there are many matchups where cards in your hand could become relevant in a later point of the game but aren't right now. At that point you have to decide to either ditch those cards into the bin or start binning lands, which is also not the thing you want to do ideally. If there would be some safe card to discard, like Souls provides in Mardu, then it works better. This is of course meaning the front side of Looting here. I think the backside is especially strong and usually doesn't require deckbuilding as in the lategame you can just ditch topdecked lands for sure.
I think Legacy is more interactive than modern. At least right now.
Cutting BBE is certainly not off the table and might be the correct move. At least one copy should be exchanged by Kalitas for sure. About Huntmaster, I think this card slowly gets in the unplayable category for me. The fact that he hardly does something to help against the opposing flying creatures is a real problem for me. The same thing goes for Finks lately. I don't want a 4 mana or 3 mana gain 2 life and then do nothing more really.
I personally am liking Pia and Kiran Nalaar quite a bit. It actually does something as it blocks opposing flyers, and can serve as extra removals which we need. Also works well with LtLH and KCommand.
I disagree about delirium being easily activated. Grim Flayer is in general a card that works pretty well when you are ahead, but is incredibly bad when you are behind and dont have delirium. I think one can be really biased on Flayer depending on the personal experience. But I wouldnt count on him as an active filtering tool for our deck, as its too inconsistant.
Going to a Mardu list and replacing Souls with GOyf unfortunaltey doesnt work. I have tried it actually. You need some kind of payoff in order to make the front side of Looting appealing. And when thats missing often thats a big liability.
For me there are 3 strong categories which are essentially the best decks in the modern format, and all those evolve around one of 3 cards: Ancient Stirrings, Looting and Noble Hierarch.
Stirrings: Tron, KCI, Scales
Looting: Dredge, Hollow One, Phoenix decks
Noble: Spirits, Humans
This trend certainly has gotten true when probe was banned and push was printed. And it will continue like that. That being said, I think we as a fair deck have a chance if we abuse metagaming to max value, or if proper cards are printed. In a format like legacy, where crazy degenerate things are possible, we see that fair decks can stll be good. However, the way wizards prints cards, we wont get help as they dont like to print individual powerful cards. They are printing more synergy driven cards. And that will eventually make it really tough for us.
Right now tough, i am personally still fine with humans and spirits. I am yet happy to face it as my deck feels strong against them (still). But I am not sure how long it will take until that changes.
I think LoTV is strong enough to keep, despite Fiery Temper. And yeah, Damping Sphere seems like a good card against them, haven't thought about that yet.
Great to have you here, and nice on the 5-0 finish! Don't worry about the 0-5, that happens. Since we play fair magic, we are signing up for that kind of variance naturally. The best thing to do is focus on your overall win% record among all matches you play, that is more accurate of how the deck will on average perform. Having a spreadsheet with all data in it helps for that.
If you are interested in an compact SB guide, the link is in the primer, which you can download and use on the fly.