If you are using Simian Spirit Guide, then Geier Reach Sanitarium might be able to work. One normal land and a guide lets you discard on turn two, and its a land so it avoids messing up Cascade.
I've been interested in Legacy for some time, and now that my gf and best friend are willing to jump in, I want to as well.
My main goal is to build a deck that both fits my playstyle, and has a fun, even matchup against their decks, Burn and Merfolk. I don't want to constantly win or lose to either of these decks if possible (If there isn't exactly a 50/50 deck, I'd rather be unfavored, but not drastically).
Cards I own: Modern BGx (Lilianas, Goyfs, Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Decay, Noble, fetches, etc), and URx (Snaps, Delver, Cliques, Bolts, K Commands, delve creatures, fetches, etc)
Cards that are appealing for me to play with that I don't own: Deathrite Shaman, JtMS, Leovold, Brainstorm, FoW, Hymn, Cabal Therapy, Strix, Flusterstorm, Daze, Wasteland,SFM, Stifle, etc. Similar to why I play BGx in Modern, I like forcing interesting and interactive games against any deck. I love Combo and Aggro decks, and seeing them work through a maze of disruption seems to create fun for both players
No real budget constraint. The duals are of course going to hurt the most, but they seem unavoidable due to wanting to play this style of deck. I would probably use Shocks until I can get them, and focus on the other pieces first, but I imagine this will be very bad against Merfolk, and especially burn (And makes Daze bad unless I have Island).
Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. I see a good half dozen decks that fit in the range of what I want to play, the tough part is figuring out their matchup against those two decks (Since I am new to Legacy, I can't really test myself, as it will take some time for me to play optimally with the deck).
Burn is definitely a good suggestion. I would also say to take a look at Bogles. Its not mono colored, but it is very straightforward. If you just slightly budget-ize the mana base (Run something instead of Horizon Canopy), its a very affordable deck too.
If Merfolk or Elves seem appealing... definitely proxy those first. They are more complex than they look, in my opinion.
After starting in Limited and using those cards to creep into standard, I think I'm ready to dip a toe into modern. What kind of deck would be good for a person basically starting from scratch? Not especially fond of control.
If I was in this situation, there are two things I would do.
1. Figure out a budget. This could be either an all-at-once or over time budget, but some ballpark would be good to have going into...
2. Look at each deck within that budget, proxy it, and play them against other Modern decks. A Modern deck is something you generally stick with for a while, so you want to make sure its something you enjoy.
Now, of course, this is what I would do, since I know I would want to build/build towards a competitive, known deck. If you want more specific suggestions here, then a price range and playstyle preference would be very helpful
Mystic Enforcer is definitely a new one to me too, though I recall seeing it back when Time Spiral was new. A 6/6 Flyer Pro-Black for 4 isn't too shabby though. Dodges pretty much all removal aside Path. Though if a removal-immune bomb is what you are looking for, I think Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Sigarda, Host of Herons are worth looking at too. I do like that Mystic seems to sit right in between these though (Easier to turn on than BB, a little more explosive than Sigarda).
Otherwise sweet list. The only thing I would miss are the Nobles, but I can see them not being needed in a slower meta. How have the 3 Siege Rhinos worked for you? I've never gone above two myself.
Do you expect the swords to spike a lot, or just move up a little bit? I know they are already popular casual cards, but I think only one of any given sword would be played in a SFM shell, right?
I would also consider what other decks you might be interested in that share similar cards with either UW/Esper or Grixis Control. If you have an eye for something like Delver, you basically own it by buying into Grixis Control.
What swords are most likely to see play/spike if SFM gets unbanned? I know Batterskull is the go-to, but iirc there is usually a sword or two in the package.
Some good points. I've tried testing Fulminator against Death's Shadow decks, and I found it to be just awful personally. Its not that it can't screw them, it definitely can, but so many things need to line up. With 8 discard spells, they basically get to choose whether they feel comfortable enough to let Ful stay in hand. If they play a discard spell and leave the mage in hand, I feel like I just lost two cards. Now of course, you could draw into it and really put the hurt on them, but most of the time it feels like I am giving them the choice, and that always feels subpar to me.
Valakut is a deck I am afraid of though, and I have not had a chance to test against it yet. If it shores up that match well enough, then I could see the small percentage points it gives in other matches making it an overall worthwhile slot. Looking at it on paper, and seeing how often those decks just win with Titan now, I'm still not convinced Fulminator will actually put us ahead, but I could be totally wrong and look forward to testing it out.
hi guys,
with tron being such a mad matchup, even post board, is it even worth running fulminators as they are pretty narrow and not that backbreaking against them.
is it worth conceding the matchup and bolstering the sideboard with cards against more decks
I've been testing this matchup quite a bit lately, and I feel like Stony Silence does more work (While being useful in other matchups). I feel like Fulminator just doesn't raise the win % enough to be worth the slot, when we can hedge other matches better with those slots.
It not only plays the sweetest black cards, but its highly competitive in just about any meta. It is also highly interactive! You don't draw a ton of cards, but you strip your opponent of all their cards, so drawing two a turn feels like a ton. The only downside is that it is pretty pricey. However, buying into Jund puts you a stones-throw away from Abzan as well, and with those two built, you will have the cards to play good, interactive magic in any meta!
I feel like running 6 copies of an effect is essentially telling my deck "I really want to see 2 of these, and I am fine seeing 3, but I'm cool off the 4th". Running 8 makes drawing the 4th copy too likely for me, and I feel like after 2-3 discard spells I should have the hand under control in most matches. That said, I don't think its necessarily wrong to play 8, and in a given meta I can even see it being strictly better, but in general I think 6 feels just right.
I've been doing a lot of thinking and testing regarding Grim Flayer vs Bob. I had been of a similar opinion of others here that Bob is preferred, but it bothered me that pretty much every list putting up results runs Flayer, and none that I could find run Bob. (Of course this could be due to people just copying lists, but it was at least alarming enough to warrant a deeper look I think.) So, I decided to take notes while testing, and put together a "Pros and Cons" list for each creature, directly relating to each other (So not noting things like their cmc or base power, since they are shared). Not sure if this will be of any use to anyone, but I figure its worth a look at least.
-Always cast able, great in multiples.
-Lets us dig 3 deep to set up draw steps, prevent dead draws, grows Tarmogoyf, synergy with Scavenging Ooze and Liliana, the Last Hope
-Discarding Lingering Souls to ability is effectively drawing .5 cards.
-Can be a 4/4, has trample.
-Allows more reason for mb artifacts, which benefits Tarmogoyf.
CONS
-Relies on gy, making gy hate more active against us than it already was.
-Has to deal damage to use ability.
-Requires Delirium to be more than a bear.
-Wants an additional card type mb.
-Draws a card every turn!
-Doesn't have to attack/deal damage to use ability
-Doesn't want additional card types.
-Great Synergy with Liliana of the Veil
CONS
-Not always cast able. Dead card in some matches, can be a dead draw in all matchups depending on game state.
-Almost always bad in multiples if the first isn't removed.
-Requires some build around, needs low cmc (Not a huge downside, our cmc is close to low enough anyways)
-Not as much potential to be a fast clock.
What I have noticed in general is that:
-In a match where Bob is good, its worst case is better than Flayer. Flayer's best case is better
-In a match where Bob is bad, Flayer is always better.
-Flayer seems better against Aggro decks, since Bob is risky. Also seems better against Big Mana decks, and decks in general where we need a clock
-Bob seems better in Midrange matches and Control.
-Both building restrictions are almost negligible, there are 1-2 card Bob doesn't want us running, and 1-2 that Flayer does. You would probably be fine not building around either (a single Tasigur, the Golden Fang with Bob, no Artifacts or Tribal cards with Flayer).
I'm still torn. Bob feels better to play, its effects are immediate and I just love drawing cards. However, testing against so many decks, I notice more and more the situations in which he is a terrible draw, and I think its possible that, though Flayer is less exciting to play with, that it might be correct. Hopefully the Flayer discussion isn't too overdone already, as I'd love to hear some more thoughts on it, and hopefully this wall of text wasn't too much
With a Tasigur and 3 Scavenging Ooze in the main, it might be worth running Nihil Spellbomb as a sideboard gy hate over relic, since you can benefit from leaving your own cards in your gy. It also doesn't require black mana, but lets you cantrip if you have it. Just a thought
I've been interested in Legacy for some time, and now that my gf and best friend are willing to jump in, I want to as well.
My main goal is to build a deck that both fits my playstyle, and has a fun, even matchup against their decks, Burn and Merfolk. I don't want to constantly win or lose to either of these decks if possible (If there isn't exactly a 50/50 deck, I'd rather be unfavored, but not drastically).
Cards I own: Modern BGx (Lilianas, Goyfs, Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Decay, Noble, fetches, etc), and URx (Snaps, Delver, Cliques, Bolts, K Commands, delve creatures, fetches, etc)
Cards that are appealing for me to play with that I don't own: Deathrite Shaman, JtMS, Leovold, Brainstorm, FoW, Hymn, Cabal Therapy, Strix, Flusterstorm, Daze, Wasteland,SFM, Stifle, etc. Similar to why I play BGx in Modern, I like forcing interesting and interactive games against any deck. I love Combo and Aggro decks, and seeing them work through a maze of disruption seems to create fun for both players
No real budget constraint. The duals are of course going to hurt the most, but they seem unavoidable due to wanting to play this style of deck. I would probably use Shocks until I can get them, and focus on the other pieces first, but I imagine this will be very bad against Merfolk, and especially burn (And makes Daze bad unless I have Island).
Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. I see a good half dozen decks that fit in the range of what I want to play, the tough part is figuring out their matchup against those two decks (Since I am new to Legacy, I can't really test myself, as it will take some time for me to play optimally with the deck).
Thanks in advance!
If Merfolk or Elves seem appealing... definitely proxy those first. They are more complex than they look, in my opinion.
If I was in this situation, there are two things I would do.
1. Figure out a budget. This could be either an all-at-once or over time budget, but some ballpark would be good to have going into...
2. Look at each deck within that budget, proxy it, and play them against other Modern decks. A Modern deck is something you generally stick with for a while, so you want to make sure its something you enjoy.
Now, of course, this is what I would do, since I know I would want to build/build towards a competitive, known deck. If you want more specific suggestions here, then a price range and playstyle preference would be very helpful
Otherwise sweet list. The only thing I would miss are the Nobles, but I can see them not being needed in a slower meta. How have the 3 Siege Rhinos worked for you? I've never gone above two myself.
Do you expect the swords to spike a lot, or just move up a little bit? I know they are already popular casual cards, but I think only one of any given sword would be played in a SFM shell, right?
Valakut is a deck I am afraid of though, and I have not had a chance to test against it yet. If it shores up that match well enough, then I could see the small percentage points it gives in other matches making it an overall worthwhile slot. Looking at it on paper, and seeing how often those decks just win with Titan now, I'm still not convinced Fulminator will actually put us ahead, but I could be totally wrong and look forward to testing it out.
1 more CB and/or 1 Kitchen Finks if you have a lot of Burn or aggro.
Another grindy card if you have a lot of midrange mirrors or control matches (Liliana TLH, Thrun, Blood Baron, Painful Truths, etc)
Not sure if you are on the 2 Nihil mb, if not I would have 2 gy hate cards in the side (Nihil or Cage), and if you have 1 mb maybe 1 sb?
Another piece of removal (Path assuming you run 3 mb, or another Pulse). I lean towards the 4th path here personally.
Just a few ideas, hopefully its helpful
Edit: haven't had time to test it yet, but Dromoka's Command seems like it could be sweet too.
I've been testing this matchup quite a bit lately, and I feel like Stony Silence does more work (While being useful in other matchups). I feel like Fulminator just doesn't raise the win % enough to be worth the slot, when we can hedge other matches better with those slots.
Just my personal opinion from testing, of course.
Dark Confidant
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Liliana of the Veil
It not only plays the sweetest black cards, but its highly competitive in just about any meta. It is also highly interactive! You don't draw a ton of cards, but you strip your opponent of all their cards, so drawing two a turn feels like a ton. The only downside is that it is pretty pricey. However, buying into Jund puts you a stones-throw away from Abzan as well, and with those two built, you will have the cards to play good, interactive magic in any meta!
Here is the primer, if you want to take a deeper look at the deck: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/770899-jund
I feel like running 6 copies of an effect is essentially telling my deck "I really want to see 2 of these, and I am fine seeing 3, but I'm cool off the 4th". Running 8 makes drawing the 4th copy too likely for me, and I feel like after 2-3 discard spells I should have the hand under control in most matches. That said, I don't think its necessarily wrong to play 8, and in a given meta I can even see it being strictly better, but in general I think 6 feels just right.
Grim Flayer
PROS
-Always cast able, great in multiples.
-Lets us dig 3 deep to set up draw steps, prevent dead draws, grows Tarmogoyf, synergy with Scavenging Ooze and Liliana, the Last Hope
-Discarding Lingering Souls to ability is effectively drawing .5 cards.
-Can be a 4/4, has trample.
-Allows more reason for mb artifacts, which benefits Tarmogoyf.
CONS
-Relies on gy, making gy hate more active against us than it already was.
-Has to deal damage to use ability.
-Requires Delirium to be more than a bear.
-Wants an additional card type mb.
Dark Confidant
PROS
-Draws a card every turn!
-Doesn't have to attack/deal damage to use ability
-Doesn't want additional card types.
-Great Synergy with Liliana of the Veil
CONS
-Not always cast able. Dead card in some matches, can be a dead draw in all matchups depending on game state.
-Almost always bad in multiples if the first isn't removed.
-Requires some build around, needs low cmc (Not a huge downside, our cmc is close to low enough anyways)
-Not as much potential to be a fast clock.
What I have noticed in general is that:
-In a match where Bob is good, its worst case is better than Flayer. Flayer's best case is better
-In a match where Bob is bad, Flayer is always better.
-Flayer seems better against Aggro decks, since Bob is risky. Also seems better against Big Mana decks, and decks in general where we need a clock
-Bob seems better in Midrange matches and Control.
-Both building restrictions are almost negligible, there are 1-2 card Bob doesn't want us running, and 1-2 that Flayer does. You would probably be fine not building around either (a single Tasigur, the Golden Fang with Bob, no Artifacts or Tribal cards with Flayer).
I'm still torn. Bob feels better to play, its effects are immediate and I just love drawing cards. However, testing against so many decks, I notice more and more the situations in which he is a terrible draw, and I think its possible that, though Flayer is less exciting to play with, that it might be correct. Hopefully the Flayer discussion isn't too overdone already, as I'd love to hear some more thoughts on it, and hopefully this wall of text wasn't too much