Tested a few today, Jace is really great! Favourite plays of the day:
1. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Jace
2. Footsteps Lark for Jace + Body Double, copying Lark
Is Darkblast good? If so, I may cut the Lightning Axe for it. (Though deck becomes weaker vs Scavenging Ooze).
Just sleeved up Jace, will take it to the test tomorrow.
Though I did not test, I don't see Breaking // Entering in a build with Simian Spirit Guide. I would prefer the 20th land and cantrips (Sleight of Hands) instead of card disadvantage dig spells (Taigam's Scheming). Otherwise, stick with Glimpse the Unthinkable.
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You still need discard outlet to get the dredge cards into the yard.
I like the Thougthseize+Jace combo. I don't like the life loss against some decks though. If we employ Jace, we may have to tune the manabase (Darkslick Shores and stuff?)
A notable omission is Serum Visions though.. not sure if it's correct
Played a few games with Sleight of Hand, didn't like it. I'm only playing 2 Makeshift Mannequin but I feel we have a lot of redundancy in reanimation spells already. Most of the time I just need Hulk.
Finally I got some time to do some serious testing. As you guys wrote first, the biggest problem is finding Hulk. I got a plenty of games with a decent hand (Reanimatorspell+Dig) and there is no Hulk in the top 25 cards. Thats the reason I start playing Glimpse the Unthinkable. I think its a huge improvement to find Hulk. I tried it in combination with Noxious Revival and it felt ok. Did anybody consider playing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? On paper he looks amazing, especially with Glimpse the Unthinkable. The discard effect is nice (maybe we can play Summoners Pact), he flips really fast, the -3 ability is awesome in this deck and even the +1 ability can target for the mannequin. Biggest downside is that they can use their removal, and of course he costs like $50. However I will try it out.
It's not faster on average than Amulet Bloom or Grishoalbrand. It's more consistent than either if it can go off, but feels marginally less consistent than either in terms of being able to get to that combo.
I don't think this is particularly the case. It may be true that our nut draw is slower than Amulet's or Grishoalbrand's nut draws, but in my experience our deck goldfish faster on average. Amulet and Grishoalbrand consistently achieve their "pseudokill" turn 3. A turn 2/3 titan does not kill you on the spot. Griselbrand can draw a bunch of cards and discard to set up a hand of 2x Goryo's Vengeance+5 lands+Borborygmos Enraged in the yard to kill you next untap step. Through the BreachWorldspine Wurm leaves you almost dead, but not if you can combo kill before their next combat.
One of the upside of Hulk over Griselbrand is that we can afford to play maindeck Pact of Negation, whereas Grishoalbrand is quite reliant on the combat step. This gives us a huge equity in game 1. That being said, I agree that we are weaker in sideboarded games whereas Grishoalbrand is more difficult to hate.
2.
Hulk needs to address two problems:
A. Ways to find Protean Hulk. If we have only 4 Hulks, 5.6% of the time (2.5 games out of a 15 round GP) all 4 Hulks are at the bottom half of our library. While the deck is possible to win without Hulk, that is still a little too much for us to bear.
Solutions: Dig deeper (where is Dig Through Time?), Tutor effects (Summoner's Pact, Dark Petition, Gifts Ungiven), a more control-ish game plan to stall the game.
B. Resilience to hate. Grishoalbrand utilizes Through the Breach a lot better. Even if they got Rest in Peaceed, they can still Breach Griselbrand, draw a bunch, and untap Breach Borborygmos for the kill.
Solutions: Alternate win conditions, protection spells
3.
I'm quite disappointed with Taigam's Scheming in sideboarded games as its sorcery speed requires you to tap out on turn 2 and leave up a window for opponent to land Relic, RIP or Scavenging Ooze. I board them out a lot as I cannot afford to play the "all-in dig for combo" game plan. I also prefer Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce (techs from Affinity to battle Stony Silence) over something like Swan Song.
What decks play Leyline of Sanctity in their sideboard? In what situation is pinging their whole board repeatedly at any time not good enough (and you should have all creatures on board)? I can think of only Bogles (which is very very bad with Suppression Field, Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity). The sideboard is so tight that we shouldn't play unnecessary sideboard cards that relies on the graveyard loop.
Thopter Engineer may be a decent blocker in the burn matchup, but other than that, I can't see how any of the other choices is better than Venser, Shaper Savant
I agree that the sisters are definitely the weakest part of the deck. I'm still figuring out what we should do with them.
But before you remove them, think through all their functions in our deck.
What the sisters can do:
1. Triggers Champion of the Parish on turn 2
2. Gain a bunch of life so we have time set up the Norin+Genesis Chamber combo
3. Make Splinter Twin and burn free wins
Going further, I may try the black splash for Zealous Persecution, Dark Confidant and Lingering Souls (all of them synergizes with the sisters). This way I will have a significantly better Affinity matchup. The black splash also gives us more options in the sideboard (mainly Thoughtseize for combo).
1 Slaughter Pact over 3rd Pact of Negation seems fine to me. Zac has cut the 3rd maindeck Pact of Negation in favor of Swan Song in his latest article. So I think this is the slot that you can most easily cut.
The Slaughter Pact is mostly a metacall, whether you expect more blue decks or green decks (Scavenging Ooze). It killing Hulk is a great plus too.
The problem with the "sufficiently large" combo is that it is often insufficient.
Compare this with Scapeshift, where you can combo at 7 lands for 18 or 8 lands for 36, and every subsequent mountain are good followups to the combo as well.
In the Blood Artist version, if you draw 2 Blood Artists you can only combo for 16. 16 is not enough in many matchups, and you have little follow up after that.
The Blood Artist deck that also have some fundamental difference with traditional Flash Hulk:
1) Flash is an instant. That allows you to combo off at instant speed if the combo has enough damage.
2) Being able to combo at turn 1/2 minimizes the number of draw steps that screws you up.
3) Hulk dies immediately, not at the end step. That means you can follow up with the 0 cost creatures in your hand immediately if you Flash in your main phase.
4) You can fetch for 4 Disciple of the Vaults, but only 3 Blood Artists.
5) Brainstorm, putting Disciples back to the library.
The alternate beatdown plan cannot beat a single Tarmogoyf. I don't see it relevant enough to be considered an upside over Reveillark. You can definitely win more games with Double Reveillark beatdown than with Hangarback Walker.
There is no specific reason to go the multiple combo ways, in fact I started with the Enchanted Evening Combo, then went the Collected Company way with Viscera, Melira, Finks then decide to add Protean Hulk package with Body Double, Reveillark...it's not true that it is non-complimentary combo, Enchanted Evening combo/synergy with Protean Hulk and/or Reveillark quite well
Also Patrician's Scorn can be useful as a defense against some decks and Melira main deck isn't that bad against Infect.
You are also dodging Surgical Extraction by having 2 differents creatures packages (Finks+Seer+Melira and Reveillark+Body Double+Fanatic+Seer)...only Viscera Seer need to be protected...in the past I use a singleton Blasting Station to avoid losing to Extraction ability but now with the second combo (Enchanted Evening+Patrician's Scorn+any recursion), I don't need to
In fact, my main goal was to diversify the combos oppurtunities to make it less boring with time but I guess it weakeened the deck quite a bit in competitive play...
Enchanted Evening+Patrician's Scorn is a turn 5 combo which is too slow for competitive play.
The problem with Finks+Seer+Melira is that it is easily disrupted. In the Lark+Body Double build, you can search for and reanimate multiple Seer so it is much more resilient.
Also Collected Company doesnt fit. Google "Frank Karsten Collected Company" for more information.
1. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Jace
2. Footsteps Lark for Jace + Body Double, copying Lark
Is Darkblast good? If so, I may cut the Lightning Axe for it. (Though deck becomes weaker vs Scavenging Ooze).
Currently:
4 Protean Hulk
2 Reveillark
2 Body Double
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Viscera Seer
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
3 Izzet Charm
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Pact of Negation
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Murderous Cut
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Though I did not test, I don't see Breaking // Entering in a build with Simian Spirit Guide. I would prefer the 20th land and cantrips (Sleight of Hands) instead of card disadvantage dig spells (Taigam's Scheming). Otherwise, stick with Glimpse the Unthinkable.
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Infect does kill you without creatures. It can kill you with a land.
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Possible Insights from our Grishoalbrand friend?
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/50-shades-of-griselbrand/
We are a worse Jace deck as we don't have Goryo's Vengeance.
Sideboard Painful Truth against BGx looks good though.
I like the Thougthseize+Jace combo. I don't like the life loss against some decks though. If we employ Jace, we may have to tune the manabase (Darkslick Shores and stuff?)
A notable omission is Serum Visions though.. not sure if it's correct
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD00902W/
Edit: the same guy went 4-1-1 the day before
Edit: List
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Forbiddin Orchard
1 Mana Confluence
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Temple of Malice
4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Double
2 Reveillark
3 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Darkblast
4 Izzet Charm
2 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Faithless Looting
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Thoughtseize
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Swan Song
1 Damnation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
Do you have a tentative list with Glimpse?
I don't think this is particularly the case. It may be true that our nut draw is slower than Amulet's or Grishoalbrand's nut draws, but in my experience our deck goldfish faster on average. Amulet and Grishoalbrand consistently achieve their "pseudokill" turn 3. A turn 2/3 titan does not kill you on the spot. Griselbrand can draw a bunch of cards and discard to set up a hand of 2x Goryo's Vengeance+5 lands+Borborygmos Enraged in the yard to kill you next untap step. Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm leaves you almost dead, but not if you can combo kill before their next combat.
One of the upside of Hulk over Griselbrand is that we can afford to play maindeck Pact of Negation, whereas Grishoalbrand is quite reliant on the combat step. This gives us a huge equity in game 1. That being said, I agree that we are weaker in sideboarded games whereas Grishoalbrand is more difficult to hate.
2.
Hulk needs to address two problems:
A. Ways to find Protean Hulk. If we have only 4 Hulks, 5.6% of the time (2.5 games out of a 15 round GP) all 4 Hulks are at the bottom half of our library. While the deck is possible to win without Hulk, that is still a little too much for us to bear.
Solutions: Dig deeper (where is Dig Through Time?), Tutor effects (Summoner's Pact, Dark Petition, Gifts Ungiven), a more control-ish game plan to stall the game.
B. Resilience to hate. Grishoalbrand utilizes Through the Breach a lot better. Even if they got Rest in Peaceed, they can still Breach Griselbrand, draw a bunch, and untap Breach Borborygmos for the kill.
Solutions: Alternate win conditions, protection spells
3.
I'm quite disappointed with Taigam's Scheming in sideboarded games as its sorcery speed requires you to tap out on turn 2 and leave up a window for opponent to land Relic, RIP or Scavenging Ooze. I board them out a lot as I cannot afford to play the "all-in dig for combo" game plan. I also prefer Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce (techs from Affinity to battle Stony Silence) over something like Swan Song.
What decks play Leyline of Sanctity in their sideboard? In what situation is pinging their whole board repeatedly at any time not good enough (and you should have all creatures on board)? I can think of only Bogles (which is very very bad with Suppression Field, Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity). The sideboard is so tight that we shouldn't play unnecessary sideboard cards that relies on the graveyard loop.
But before you remove them, think through all their functions in our deck.
What the sisters can do:
1. Triggers Champion of the Parish on turn 2
2. Gain a bunch of life so we have time set up the Norin+Genesis Chamber combo
3. Make Splinter Twin and burn free wins
By the way, it isn't mentioned anywhere in the thread, but Norin actually won a modern states last month.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=93686
The answers can be:
1. Cut Ajani's Pridemate and employ Lightning Berserker+Impact Tremors
2. More cards that synergizes with the sisters, such as Serene Steward, Mentor of the Meek, Archangel of Thune, Serra Ascendant
3. Sisters with extra utilities, such as Auriok Champion, Suture Priest
4. Additional things to search for when you run out of Champion of the Parish
5. Just attack with it: Windbrisk Heights
6. Others?
Going further, I may try the black splash for Zealous Persecution, Dark Confidant and Lingering Souls (all of them synergizes with the sisters). This way I will have a significantly better Affinity matchup. The black splash also gives us more options in the sideboard (mainly Thoughtseize for combo).
Makes sense. Axe being unable to kill Footstepped Hulk do disappoint me sometimes.
The Slaughter Pact is mostly a metacall, whether you expect more blue decks or green decks (Scavenging Ooze). It killing Hulk is a great plus too.
Compare this with Scapeshift, where you can combo at 7 lands for 18 or 8 lands for 36, and every subsequent mountain are good followups to the combo as well.
In the Blood Artist version, if you draw 2 Blood Artists you can only combo for 16. 16 is not enough in many matchups, and you have little follow up after that.
The Blood Artist deck that also have some fundamental difference with traditional Flash Hulk:
1) Flash is an instant. That allows you to combo off at instant speed if the combo has enough damage.
2) Being able to combo at turn 1/2 minimizes the number of draw steps that screws you up.
3) Hulk dies immediately, not at the end step. That means you can follow up with the 0 cost creatures in your hand immediately if you Flash in your main phase.
4) You can fetch for 4 Disciple of the Vaults, but only 3 Blood Artists.
5) Brainstorm, putting Disciples back to the library.
The alternate beatdown plan cannot beat a single Tarmogoyf. I don't see it relevant enough to be considered an upside over Reveillark. You can definitely win more games with Double Reveillark beatdown than with Hangarback Walker.
Enchanted Evening+Patrician's Scorn is a turn 5 combo which is too slow for competitive play.
The problem with Finks+Seer+Melira is that it is easily disrupted. In the Lark+Body Double build, you can search for and reanimate multiple Seer so it is much more resilient.
Also Collected Company doesnt fit. Google "Frank Karsten Collected Company" for more information.