so me and my friends decided to try going budget-less with our weekly games, but with one caviate in that we can't use tutors except for land tutors (cultivate, kodama's reach, tempt with discovery, etc.) so this week I decided to make Emry Lurker of the Loch. I'm trying something new and out of my comfort zone because I don't ever play mono blue or control decks, but Emry looked kind of fun and while I know Urza is probably the best artifact commander in the game at the moment (and he is in here) I don't want to be immediately gunned down by the rest of the table due to Urza's reputation.
I'm basically going for an infinite mana combo that lets me either deck my opponent's out or that lets me just kill them with damage from walking ballista. I think I did a good job putting the deck together considering I can't run tutors (other than land tutors), but since I don't normally run these types of decks I would really appreciate some opinions and thoughts on the deck.
Honestly Precons are always targeted at new players. More enfranchised players see value in the reprints typically (as this thread proves), but keep in mind that these decks are also designed for what is supposed to be a casual format. In my experience most (not all) commander precons are, on a power level scale of 1-10 with 1 being the weakest and 10 being the strongest (i.e. cEDH), in the range of 5-7 so about mid level. This is good for introducing new players to the format and usually there are some cheap upgrades that can be made (around $25 or less) to make the decks function better.
With that being said the people arguing for more valuable reprints in these precons do have a point, putting in a better set of staples that fit the theme of the deck (ex. signets over lockets) and 1-2 mid value reprints and 1-2 higher value ($20 range) cards that fit the themes of the decks would be a welcome addition especially for newer players when those cards may be out of their reach when starting. That doesn't mean that everything put in the deck that is a reprint should be a staple. Basic staples that should be included in any precon are sol ring, commander sphere for 2+ color decks, lightning greaves for decks that want to focus on either attacking or commander damage, command tower for 2+ color decks, signets for 2+ color decks, and some (2-3) staples of each color for those decks that help fit the theme of the precon they are going in.
As for the whole new player being the punching bag argument the way I see it is this: those players are new to the game and just learning and it is common knowledge that they are using a premade product that is about mid level in terms of power and they may not have made any upgrades to it yet and I'm not saying take it easy on them, but the other players should adjust accordingly instead of being jerks and just wailing on them with their tuned/cEDH decks because that kills enthusiasm for the game for those players. Its also important for older players to foster an environment where people understand this, granted its not always possible, but it should be attempted. I know at my lgs there are quite a few people that like to build over powered decks and like to think of themselves as cEDH palyers and I don't like playing with them because they are not interested in playing just a 6-8 power level deck and having a casual game. They are in it to win it and win as fast as possible and that is boring to me, but its fun to them, that being said there aren't any other local play groups in the area that play more casually so my options are to either stick with them and adjust (which I can't because of cost, its just very out of my price range) or to just not play with them and attempt to find a new play group. That being said that lgs is not very friendly towards newer players most of the time, especially younger players interested in starting the game. It is pretty much an assumption that if you sit down to play mtg in any format at that store that you are an experienced player unless you are playing with all new players that you either brought with you are met recently, unless someone specifically says this is so and so and they just learned how to play commander and wanted to join us tonight then the expectation changes to: this is a newer player so they aren't very experienced and are likely going to make mistakes, but we will help them when we see it (though not always in the nicest way) and we won't go all out right from the start (except for like 2 people and thats just because they are hyper competitive and even they aren't very well liked in any of the playgroups at the LGS).
With all of that being said I think more experienced/established players should keep in mind that this product is not specifically aimed at them and that it is basically an assumption by WoTC at this point that you're either going to buy the precons or you're going to buy singles of the new cards and the reduced costed reprints that you want out of them and that newer players (the group the product is aimed towards) are going to be more likely to buy this product and use it as a starting point for getting into the format/game. Yes you have some valid complaints, but at the same time if money is the issue then you could just buy the decks and turn around and sell the reprints and new cards and make a profit and then spend that money on something that you want. If the precon with the most value is $40 msrp (about $45 after tax is added to it) and the value of the reprints alone is $75 you just made a $30 profit off the reprints alone, not including the new cards who's values will be highest (most likely) upon release or soon there after and will go up if they are highly sought after or valued cards because they will not be reprinted and as the market changes and their use either increases or decreases will stabilize somewhere between their most expensive value reached and their lowest or upper middle value reached (an example of price fluctuation would be atraxa preator's voice which started out being worth about $8 and reached peak value at around $53 and has reduced in price to a more stable $30-$40 depending on condition according to mtggoldfish.).
You have to keep in mind that WoTC doesn't know what the exact value of the new cards will be upon release or how those card prices will fluctuate in the next few months, they have an estimated value of those cards and that's all they have upon release so it would be fair to reason that the reason they don't include the more high value staples and reprints (i.e. $10-$20 range) is because of the estimated value of the newer cards and they are already providing you with a product (in most cases) that is worth more than the msrp of the product. They are also aware that LGSs are notorious for price gouging products once they know that there are very expensive reprints in precons. Look at the cost of some of the previous commander precons as an example, the cost of the atraxa deck doubled just a few months after release (granted it was because of it being a limited printing and super popular at the time) or even the Frealise or Kalia decks both of which are valued at more than double what they were at the time of release. So yes WoTC very likely does take into consideration what LGSs tend to do with high value products soon after release in order to increase their profits, some overcharge on the msrp right away pricing the product at $45 before tax which just proves my point on this.
So while complaining to WoTC can be helpful, you really shouldn't expect much from them (this is a capitalist society after all and profits come first). You should also take into consideration at who the product's target demographic is. Reprints are included for more than just adding value to the precons they are added because its cheaper and more efficient than designing a whole new set of brand new cards for 4 new decks and putting in very few reprints. They include certain reprints in order to help entice more established players into buying these products by picking cards that they think people will want, and this doesn't always work out very well for them, but keep in mind they will want to choose cards that match the theme of the deck and don't feel forced into it in order to keep their target demographic happy. Anyone who knows anything about marketing will likely tell you that when making a product to be placed on the market the needs/wants or perceived needs/wants of the target demographic come first.
I feel that I should also note that the people that designed these precons are likely not the exact same group as the ones that did the previous precons. There maybe some members that are still the same, but likely they have swapped personnel out to work on these. It should also be mentioned that of the list of things that the WoTC rep or whatever he was said likely had an order or prioritization and making the decks more on theme appears to have taken top priority. This is clearly the easiest way to make the most people happy about this years product, or at least lower the amount of disappointment overall, because again they are looking at the target demographic's reactions to last year's product.
So I found a new playgroup recently and they use a budget limit of $300 for the whole deck (excluding the cost of the commander and basic lands except for snowlands because those cost more than regular basic lands) and so I decided to build Ghave, Guru of Spores for one of the up coming game nights we have every week. Now the problem I'm having is not budget related as I'm under/at budget right now. The problem I'm having is making the last few cuts to the deck to make it 100 cards. I need to cut 7 cards out of the deck to hit that 100 card mark and I'm just having a really hard time deciding on what to pick. (bonus points if you can manage to fit doubling season into the deck because it would be freaking amazing but its easier to stay in budget without it.)
anyway I'm hoping someone on here can help me make those last few cuts to the deck.
a little info about the deck: Its Ghave so +1/+1 counters and tokens are kind of the main strategy but there are a lot of sacrifice effects in it as well so I'm also using an aristocrats strategy as a back up win condition using the revillark and karmic guide combo with blood artist/zulaport cut throat (both of which fit naturally into the deck even without the infinite revillark combo. I was actually thinking about taking revillark and karmic guide out, but they are really good in this deck too even if I can't pull off the combo...like I said hard choices.
I'm also running proliferate effects (no infect though) along with some nice etb effects which is why panharmonicon is in the deck as well (I know it doesn't work with any of Ghave's effects) but it does work really well with pollen bright druid, jadelight ranger, merfolk branch walker, etc...
so the deck isn't super focused on a single strategy because I like to be flexible and this deck is very good at not having to go all in on a single one. Token generation is more or less tied for second in terms of importance since I'm not really thinking its viable to just run over my opponents with a swarm of tokens, instead they are fodder for the aristocrat effects and are essentially meat shields to block attackers (non-flying ones at least) though it is possible to run my opponents over under the right conditions. I hope this explanation (though its probably not the best in the world) helps anyone looking at this deck trying to help me.
So I've looked online about this and in this forum, but I can't seem to find an answer to the question I have. That question being how spelltwine works if spelltwine is copied. The specific interaction I have in mind actually happened a few days ago and it didn't make any sense to me. What happened was my opponent cast spelltwine and then cast reiterate on spelltwine making a copy of it he then proceeded to resolve the copied version of spelltwine and targeted two legal targets in the graveyards then copied those same targets using the original spelltwine that he had cast. He said that this was how the card worked and it was casual play so I let it slide, but I'm not so sure. Since spelltwine exiles and then casts a copy of the exiled cards wouldn't the copied spelltwine resolve first and exile the two cards in graveyard and then the original copy fizzle since he picked those cards first but they were no longer able to be exiled with the originally cast spelltwine?
to break it down it went like this: opponent casts spelltwine => spelltwine targets turn to frog and banishing stroke => opponent casts reiterate and targets their spelltwine that's already on the stack => opponent chooses the same targets as the original spelltwine (turn to frog and banishing stroke) => copied version of spelltwine resolves and turn to frog and banishing stroke are exiled and then cast and choose legal targets for each => opponent then says that they are doing it again with the original spelltwine.
Basically I want to know will the original spelltwine fizzle or resolve because its original targets would already be exiled by the copied spelltwine because the targets of the original spelltwine are no longer legal targets.
I hope this makes sense.
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I don't think kor cartographer is really needed because its a 4 drop for a single tapped plains. If the land came in untapped or it gave me two tapped lands or one tapped to field and one to hand I would definitely run it, but as is I feel that I have (surprisingly) enough ramp spells that cost a lot less and several that are reusable without the need for setup or comboing with panharmonicon to get a lot of value. I'm already running solemn simulacrum. As for Wall of omens the draw is nice, but there isn't really much use for it outside of a small draw combo that honestly is done better by other decks. I don't think the combo is worth it when I can get more value out of hte reveillark and karmic guide combo even though it is more mana intensive and requires 3 pieces to combo (4 if I want to maximize value). Emeria Shepard is good, but is reliant on landfall which I don't like in this particular deck (or mono white at all for that matter).
With all of that being said I did remove hushwing gryph, profound journey, and resurrection for Karmic Guide, Reveillark, and Scion of vitu-ghazi and I removed gift of estates for ashond's altar.
I didn't know about Scion and I forgot about rootborn defenses. Not sure if Scion is really needed though because of its cost...Its a good card though so I'll try to find a spot for both of these.
Just posted the updated deck list, I think it actually looks a lot better now with the flash creatures, and the panharmonicon to double up the etb effects of cards like knight of the white orchid
The problem I have with skull clamp in this deck is that the majority of tokens I'm making are 4/4 and not 1/1 which makes it somewhat harder to get the draw trigger off until later in the game and I would rather run something that guarantees me value in the artifact and noncreature section especially because of the taxing effects like Thalia that I run. Hushwing gryph might also need to be cut if I decide to go with the etb and panharmonicon rout since it cancels it out...but that being said it does make for nice disruption...
Either way I'll have the new list up sometime tomorrow (well later today since its after midnight now)
I'll look into adding panharmonicon and some of the white flash creatures to the deck especially restoration angel, celestial crusader, stone cloaker, and selfless squire.
Went ahead and added the requiem angel to the list since I really like that interaction between it and divine visitation though that combo may seem a bit ambitious in mono white. I replaced ravnica at war with it. Thank you for the input.
So I saw the new Oketra and thought to myself this would make an interesting mono white deck. That being said I think going all in on the token strategy isn't the way to go, rather I want it to be an important part of the deck, but Oketra is the main token generator and to get that skill to activate I need to cast creatures and lots of them. But I don't want them to be little 1 drop 1/1 creatures that don't really do anything. I want my creatures to have some kind of purpose and to at least have some ability that makes it worth the 1 manna although getting a free 4/4 out of it is pretty nice...anyway I think I built the deck pretty well, but I'm sure that I may have missed a few things that could improve the deck. With all that being said I want the deck to have a heavy focus on creatures and combat...its mono white so there isn't much else I can do with it strategy wise lol. So thoughts and opinions and advice are more than welcome.
Okay so here is the updated deck (I'll also be puting into the OP). I decided that in addition to landfall triggers I also want to be about dealing big damage with X spells like commet storm, preferably to as many opponent's as possible, and of course the token sub theme. So basically ramp hard and deal big damage via spells as early as possible to as many people as possible.
Also thank you to everyone who is helping me with these suggestions, they really got me thinking and I think the deck looks much better now. It might take me some time to get the land base together though for some of the more epensive duel lands though).
So I've been looking to build lord windgrace for a while now and I'll be able to start on it later this month so I'm looking to buy the precon and then upgrade it from there. I'm calling this budget because I have most of the more expensive cards already (except for vorinclex voice of hunger) and just about everything else is around $10 or less so I can upgrade overtime rather cheaply for the most part instead of just one giant cash drop from the get go.
The deck is almost entierly green at the moment, so I'm thinking I should probably put in more red and black spells. Please keep suggestions for individual cards under $25 (preferably under $20)
I kind of forgot about fleshbag marauder to be honest lol.
I like white sun zenith as well, but the 3W is offputting and there are better mana sinks like torment of hailfire for this deck. I'll probably add in the archon of justice as well along with the fleshbag maurader. I'm on the fence as far as Cathar's Crusade goes, yeah it makes everything bigger, but an army of 4/4 flying, lifelink, vigiliance angels is still really good, and honestly I don't really have room for an additional 5 drop white enchantment as its going to be hard enough to swap in the fleshbag and archon. I'm thinking I could swap wrath of god out for cleansing nova though.
Granted I'm not sure how I feel about field of souls either and if I did put in cathar's crusade it would probably be replacing this since its just a 1 mana difference.
I have the merciless eviction mainly because at my locals enchantment and artifact based decks (mainly artifacts) are really common and this is one of the few ways to deal with that on a massive scale (which is very necessary in most cases). I skipped dictate of erebos mainly because I grave pact was enough, but i'll probably swap it in and take out akroma's memorial. I feel like the deck is kind of slow at bringing a huge field of creatures out which is why I think having 3 wraths are important for the deck, granted eviction is mostly for artifacts/enchantments).
I would also like to note I haven't built the deck yet, I'm looking at building it but before I spend the money on it I want to get the build decided first.
I feel like your version takes more of a reanimator rout that uses dies triggers as an engine which is also good, but not really what I'm looking to do. I'm more or less looking to capitolize on both aspects of Teysa Karlov. You are right that I'm probably a bit light on creatures though. I don't particularly like archon of justice and ashen rider because they have such a high cmc though even though they do have great effects when they die.
I'm basically going for an infinite mana combo that lets me either deck my opponent's out or that lets me just kill them with damage from walking ballista. I think I did a good job putting the deck together considering I can't run tutors (other than land tutors), but since I don't normally run these types of decks I would really appreciate some opinions and thoughts on the deck.
1 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
Creature
1 Vedalken Archmage
1 Mirran Spy
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Urza, Lord High Artificer
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Enchantment
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Secrets of the Dead
1 Rhystic Study
1 Mirrodin Besieged
Land
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Buried Ruin
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Dark Depths
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Thespian's Stage
28 Snow-Covered Island
1 Castle Vantress
Artifact
1 Grim Monolith
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Diamond
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Illusionist's Bracers
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
1 Scroll Rack
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 The Immortal Sun
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Temple Bell
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sol Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Mana Vault
1 Midnight Clock
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Walking Ballista
1 Metalworker
1 Junk Diver
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Jhoira's Familiar
1 Foundry Inspector
1 Scrap Trawler
1 Memnarch
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Dissipate
1 Void Shatter
1 Dramatic Reversal
1 Disallow
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
1 Mana Drain
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Counterspell
1 Didn't Say Please
Sorcery
1 Expropriate
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
With that being said the people arguing for more valuable reprints in these precons do have a point, putting in a better set of staples that fit the theme of the deck (ex. signets over lockets) and 1-2 mid value reprints and 1-2 higher value ($20 range) cards that fit the themes of the decks would be a welcome addition especially for newer players when those cards may be out of their reach when starting. That doesn't mean that everything put in the deck that is a reprint should be a staple. Basic staples that should be included in any precon are sol ring, commander sphere for 2+ color decks, lightning greaves for decks that want to focus on either attacking or commander damage, command tower for 2+ color decks, signets for 2+ color decks, and some (2-3) staples of each color for those decks that help fit the theme of the precon they are going in.
As for the whole new player being the punching bag argument the way I see it is this: those players are new to the game and just learning and it is common knowledge that they are using a premade product that is about mid level in terms of power and they may not have made any upgrades to it yet and I'm not saying take it easy on them, but the other players should adjust accordingly instead of being jerks and just wailing on them with their tuned/cEDH decks because that kills enthusiasm for the game for those players. Its also important for older players to foster an environment where people understand this, granted its not always possible, but it should be attempted. I know at my lgs there are quite a few people that like to build over powered decks and like to think of themselves as cEDH palyers and I don't like playing with them because they are not interested in playing just a 6-8 power level deck and having a casual game. They are in it to win it and win as fast as possible and that is boring to me, but its fun to them, that being said there aren't any other local play groups in the area that play more casually so my options are to either stick with them and adjust (which I can't because of cost, its just very out of my price range) or to just not play with them and attempt to find a new play group. That being said that lgs is not very friendly towards newer players most of the time, especially younger players interested in starting the game. It is pretty much an assumption that if you sit down to play mtg in any format at that store that you are an experienced player unless you are playing with all new players that you either brought with you are met recently, unless someone specifically says this is so and so and they just learned how to play commander and wanted to join us tonight then the expectation changes to: this is a newer player so they aren't very experienced and are likely going to make mistakes, but we will help them when we see it (though not always in the nicest way) and we won't go all out right from the start (except for like 2 people and thats just because they are hyper competitive and even they aren't very well liked in any of the playgroups at the LGS).
With all of that being said I think more experienced/established players should keep in mind that this product is not specifically aimed at them and that it is basically an assumption by WoTC at this point that you're either going to buy the precons or you're going to buy singles of the new cards and the reduced costed reprints that you want out of them and that newer players (the group the product is aimed towards) are going to be more likely to buy this product and use it as a starting point for getting into the format/game. Yes you have some valid complaints, but at the same time if money is the issue then you could just buy the decks and turn around and sell the reprints and new cards and make a profit and then spend that money on something that you want. If the precon with the most value is $40 msrp (about $45 after tax is added to it) and the value of the reprints alone is $75 you just made a $30 profit off the reprints alone, not including the new cards who's values will be highest (most likely) upon release or soon there after and will go up if they are highly sought after or valued cards because they will not be reprinted and as the market changes and their use either increases or decreases will stabilize somewhere between their most expensive value reached and their lowest or upper middle value reached (an example of price fluctuation would be atraxa preator's voice which started out being worth about $8 and reached peak value at around $53 and has reduced in price to a more stable $30-$40 depending on condition according to mtggoldfish.).
You have to keep in mind that WoTC doesn't know what the exact value of the new cards will be upon release or how those card prices will fluctuate in the next few months, they have an estimated value of those cards and that's all they have upon release so it would be fair to reason that the reason they don't include the more high value staples and reprints (i.e. $10-$20 range) is because of the estimated value of the newer cards and they are already providing you with a product (in most cases) that is worth more than the msrp of the product. They are also aware that LGSs are notorious for price gouging products once they know that there are very expensive reprints in precons. Look at the cost of some of the previous commander precons as an example, the cost of the atraxa deck doubled just a few months after release (granted it was because of it being a limited printing and super popular at the time) or even the Frealise or Kalia decks both of which are valued at more than double what they were at the time of release. So yes WoTC very likely does take into consideration what LGSs tend to do with high value products soon after release in order to increase their profits, some overcharge on the msrp right away pricing the product at $45 before tax which just proves my point on this.
So while complaining to WoTC can be helpful, you really shouldn't expect much from them (this is a capitalist society after all and profits come first). You should also take into consideration at who the product's target demographic is. Reprints are included for more than just adding value to the precons they are added because its cheaper and more efficient than designing a whole new set of brand new cards for 4 new decks and putting in very few reprints. They include certain reprints in order to help entice more established players into buying these products by picking cards that they think people will want, and this doesn't always work out very well for them, but keep in mind they will want to choose cards that match the theme of the deck and don't feel forced into it in order to keep their target demographic happy. Anyone who knows anything about marketing will likely tell you that when making a product to be placed on the market the needs/wants or perceived needs/wants of the target demographic come first.
I feel that I should also note that the people that designed these precons are likely not the exact same group as the ones that did the previous precons. There maybe some members that are still the same, but likely they have swapped personnel out to work on these. It should also be mentioned that of the list of things that the WoTC rep or whatever he was said likely had an order or prioritization and making the decks more on theme appears to have taken top priority. This is clearly the easiest way to make the most people happy about this years product, or at least lower the amount of disappointment overall, because again they are looking at the target demographic's reactions to last year's product.
anyway I'm hoping someone on here can help me make those last few cuts to the deck.
a little info about the deck: Its Ghave so +1/+1 counters and tokens are kind of the main strategy but there are a lot of sacrifice effects in it as well so I'm also using an aristocrats strategy as a back up win condition using the revillark and karmic guide combo with blood artist/zulaport cut throat (both of which fit naturally into the deck even without the infinite revillark combo. I was actually thinking about taking revillark and karmic guide out, but they are really good in this deck too even if I can't pull off the combo...like I said hard choices.
I'm also running proliferate effects (no infect though) along with some nice etb effects which is why panharmonicon is in the deck as well (I know it doesn't work with any of Ghave's effects) but it does work really well with pollen bright druid, jadelight ranger, merfolk branch walker, etc...
so the deck isn't super focused on a single strategy because I like to be flexible and this deck is very good at not having to go all in on a single one. Token generation is more or less tied for second in terms of importance since I'm not really thinking its viable to just run over my opponents with a swarm of tokens, instead they are fodder for the aristocrat effects and are essentially meat shields to block attackers (non-flying ones at least) though it is possible to run my opponents over under the right conditions. I hope this explanation (though its probably not the best in the world) helps anyone looking at this deck trying to help me.
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Creature
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Genesis Hydra
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Blood Artist
1 Incubation Druid
1 Psychotrope Thallid
1 Gyre Sage
1 Deadeye Tracker
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Managorger Hydra
1 Elenda, the Dusk Rose
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Ravenous Slime
1 Pollenbright Druid
1 Grateful Apparition
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Merfolk Branchwalker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bane of Progress
1 Karmic Guide
1 Jadelight Ranger
1 Thallid Soothsayer
1 Good-Fortune Unicorn
1 Mowu, Loyal Companion
1 Evolution Sage
1 Corpsejack Menace
1 Reveillark
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Sun Titan
1 Parallel Lives
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Deathreap Ritual
1 Animate Dead
1 Anointed Procession
1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1 Blind Obedience
1 Zendikar Resurgent
Land
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Esper Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Opal Palace
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Karn's Bastion
6 Plains
7 Swamp
7 Forest
1 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
Artifact
1 Contagion Engine
1 Panharmonicon
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Golgari Signet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Evolution Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Rootborn Defenses
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Abzan Charm
1 Utter End
1 Return to Dust
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Golgari Charm
Sorcery
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Austere Command
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Painful Truths
1 Sign in Blood
1 Cultivate
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Cleansing Nova
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Planewide Celebration
to break it down it went like this: opponent casts spelltwine => spelltwine targets turn to frog and banishing stroke => opponent casts reiterate and targets their spelltwine that's already on the stack => opponent chooses the same targets as the original spelltwine (turn to frog and banishing stroke) => copied version of spelltwine resolves and turn to frog and banishing stroke are exiled and then cast and choose legal targets for each => opponent then says that they are doing it again with the original spelltwine.
Basically I want to know will the original spelltwine fizzle or resolve because its original targets would already be exiled by the copied spelltwine because the targets of the original spelltwine are no longer legal targets.
I hope this makes sense.
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-MadMage
With all of that being said I did remove hushwing gryph, profound journey, and resurrection for Karmic Guide, Reveillark, and Scion of vitu-ghazi and I removed gift of estates for ashond's altar.
I've posted the new list in the OP.
Either way I'll have the new list up sometime tomorrow (well later today since its after midnight now)
1 God-Eternal Oketra
Creature
1 Boreas Charger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Mother of Runes
1 Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker
1 Imposing Sovereign
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Whitemane Lion
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Bounty Agent
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Bastion Protector
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Oketra the True
1 Alms Collector
1 Odric, Master Tactician
1 Benalish Marshal
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sun Titan
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 True Conviction
1 Anointed Procession
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Blind Obedience
1 Land Tax
1 Divine Visitation
1 Smothering Tithe
Land
1 Fountain of Cho
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Maze of Ith
1 Desert of the True
1 New Benalia
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Emergence Zone
24 Plains
1 Blast Zone
Artifact
1 Caged Sun
1 Pearl Medallion
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Sol Ring
1 Gold Myr
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Teferi's Protection
1 Eerie Interlude
1 Return to Dust
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unbreakable Formation
Sorcery
1 Mass Calcify
1 Gift of Estates
1 Profound Journey
1 Not Forgotten
1 Resurrection
1 Ravnica at War
1 God-Eternal Oketra
Creature
1 Boreas Charger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Mother of Runes
1 Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker
1 Imposing Sovereign
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Whitemane Lion
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Bounty Agent
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Bastion Protector
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Oketra the True
1 Alms Collector
1 Odric, Master Tactician
1 Benalish Marshal
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Requiem Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 True Conviction
1 Anointed Procession
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Blind Obedience
1 Land Tax
1 Divine Visitation
1 Smothering Tithe
Land
1 Fountain of Cho
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Maze of Ith
1 Desert of the True
1 New Benalia
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Emergence Zone
24 Plains
1 Blast Zone
Artifact
1 Caged Sun
1 Pearl Medallion
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Sol Ring
1 Gold Myr
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Teferi's Protection
1 Eerie Interlude
1 Return to Dust
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unbreakable Formation
Sorcery
1 Mass Calcify
1 Gift of Estates
1 Profound Journey
1 Not Forgotten
1 Resurrection
1 God-Eternal Oketra
Creature
1 Boreas Charger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Mother of Runes
1 Imposing Sovereign
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Whitemane Lion
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Bounty Agent
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Oketra the True
1 Alms Collector
1 Restoration Angel
1 Stonecloaker
1 Benalish Marshal
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Requiem Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 True Conviction
1 Anointed Procession
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Blind Obedience
1 Land Tax
1 Divine Visitation
1 Smothering Tithe
Land
1 Fountain of Cho
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Maze of Ith
1 Desert of the True
1 New Benalia
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Emergence Zone
24 Plains
1 Blast Zone
Artifact
1 Caged Sun
1 Pearl Medallion
1 Panharmonicon
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Sol Ring
1 Gold Myr
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Teferi's Protection
1 Return to Dust
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unbreakable Formation
Sorcery
1 Mass Calcify
1 Gift of Estates
1 Profound Journey
1 Resurrection
1 God-Eternal Oketra
Creature
1 Boreas Charger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Mother of Runes
1 Imposing Sovereign
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Karmic Guide
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Whitemane Lion
1 Oreskos Explorer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Bounty Agent
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Oketra the True
1 Alms Collector
1 Restoration Angel
1 Stonecloaker
1 Benalish Marshal
1 Scion of Vitu-Ghazi
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Reveillark
1 Requiem Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 True Conviction
1 Anointed Procession
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Blind Obedience
1 Land Tax
1 Divine Visitation
1 Smothering Tithe
Land
1 Fountain of Cho
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Maze of Ith
1 Desert of the True
1 New Benalia
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Emergence Zone
24 Plains
1 Blast Zone
Artifact
1 Caged Sun
1 Pearl Medallion
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Panharmonicon
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Sol Ring
1 Gold Myr
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Fate Forgotten
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Teferi's Protection
1 Return to Dust
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unbreakable Formation
Sorcery
1 Mass Calcify
Also thank you to everyone who is helping me with these suggestions, they really got me thinking and I think the deck looks much better now. It might take me some time to get the land base together though for some of the more epensive duel lands though).
1 Lord Windgrace
Creature
1 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Genesis Hydra
1 Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Budoka Gardener
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 World Shaper
1 Turntimber Sower
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Omnath, Locus of Rage
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wayward Swordtooth
1 Nesting Dragon
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Enchantment
1 Retreat to Hagra
1 Burgeoning
1 Zendikar Resurgent
1 Seismic Assault
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Jund Panorama
1 Temple of Malady
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Canyon Slough
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Savage Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Temple of the False God
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gruul Turf
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Forge of Heroes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
9 Forest
Artifact
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Horn of Greed
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Constant Mists
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Fall of the Titans
1 Comet Storm
1 Harrow
1 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bedevil
Sorcery
1 Exsanguinate
1 Dark Petition
1 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Seasons Past
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Genesis Wave
1 Farseek
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Dreadbore
1 Fireball
1 Cultivate
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vengeful Rebirth
The deck is almost entierly green at the moment, so I'm thinking I should probably put in more red and black spells. Please keep suggestions for individual cards under $25 (preferably under $20)
1 Lord Windgrace
Creature
1 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Budoka Gardener
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 World Shaper
1 Turntimber Sower
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Omnath, Locus of Rage
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wayward Swordtooth
1 Nesting Dragon
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Zendikar's Roil
1 Retreat to Hagra
1 Burgeoning
1 Khalni Heart Expedition
1 Journey to Eternity
1 Seismic Assault
1 Courser of Kruphix
Land
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Jund Panorama
1 Temple of Malady
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Savage Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Temple of the False God
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gruul Turf
1 Forge of Heroes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
8 Swamp
8 Mountain
12 Forest
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Horn of Greed
1 Gruul Signet
1 Golgari Signet
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
Instant
1 Constant Mists
1 Harrow
1 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
1 Crop Rotation
Sorcery
1 Seasons Past
1 Splendid Reclamation
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Worm Harvest
1 Farseek
1 Painful Truths
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Earthquake
1 Praetor's Counsel
1 Cultivate
1 Life from the Loam
1 Lord Windgrace
Creature
1 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Genesis Hydra
1 Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Budoka Gardener
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 World Shaper
1 Turntimber Sower
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Omnath, Locus of Rage
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wayward Swordtooth
1 Nesting Dragon
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Enchantment
1 Retreat to Hagra
1 Burgeoning
1 Zendikar Resurgent
1 Seismic Assault
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Jund Panorama
1 Temple of Malady
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Canyon Slough
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Savage Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Temple of the False God
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gruul Turf
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Forge of Heroes
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
9 Forest
Artifact
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Horn of Greed
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Constant Mists
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Fall of the Titans
1 Comet Storm
1 Harrow
1 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bedevil
Sorcery
1 Exsanguinate
1 Dark Petition
1 Avacyn's Judgment
1 Seasons Past
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Genesis Wave
1 Farseek
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Dreadbore
1 Fireball
1 Cultivate
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vengeful Rebirth
I like white sun zenith as well, but the 3W is offputting and there are better mana sinks like torment of hailfire for this deck. I'll probably add in the archon of justice as well along with the fleshbag maurader. I'm on the fence as far as Cathar's Crusade goes, yeah it makes everything bigger, but an army of 4/4 flying, lifelink, vigiliance angels is still really good, and honestly I don't really have room for an additional 5 drop white enchantment as its going to be hard enough to swap in the fleshbag and archon. I'm thinking I could swap wrath of god out for cleansing nova though.
Granted I'm not sure how I feel about field of souls either and if I did put in cathar's crusade it would probably be replacing this since its just a 1 mana difference.
I would also like to note I haven't built the deck yet, I'm looking at building it but before I spend the money on it I want to get the build decided first.
I feel like your version takes more of a reanimator rout that uses dies triggers as an engine which is also good, but not really what I'm looking to do. I'm more or less looking to capitolize on both aspects of Teysa Karlov. You are right that I'm probably a bit light on creatures though. I don't particularly like archon of justice and ashen rider because they have such a high cmc though even though they do have great effects when they die.