Overall, I really like the feel of the deck, since I basically get to remove whatever I want, whenever I want. I would like the community's feedback on it, in particular I feel that the sideboard needs the most help
Okay guys, I would love some feedback on my list, its a relatively run-of-the-mill geist list with just a few tweaks here and there, and would like the comunity's opinion on a few things
So for starters, I would like feedback on the following aspects-
1- Mana Leak vs Remand- I know the community is very much at odds on this, with people advocating strongly for both sides. I personally REALLY like remand, but I dont think I've given leak enough testing (for the same reason that I love remand. ESPECIALLY in conjuction with snapcaster mage <3) But Im open to try it. Should I run a split? or 4 of one (I personally think comitting to 1 over the other is probably better, but its just a hunch, I dont have any reasoning to back that up) So I guess I want to be persuaded, why run one over the other, and why run a split? (or maybe 3 leak 1 logic knot?)
2- Spell snare- In my playtesting, this card has really over performed. I know some of you guys are cutting it, but I have no intentions of doing so, to be honest. Yeah, it seems like its too narrow, but when it actually comes down to it, there are just SO many relevant 2 mana spells in modern, and I dont want to leave home without spell snare. Do I leave it in? Or is there something you guys will do to persuade me that theres better stuff I could be running in that slot?
3- Lightning Helix- Im running 3, and have been running 3 from the very start. I see a lot of you, if not most of you, running the full 4. I haven't found myself wishing for a 4th helix, but is there an argument for it? What would even be worth cutting for a 4th helix?
4- Electrolyze- I used to run 2, and I LOVED the card. Now that I cut it down to 1, I feel like I never see the card when I want it, and when I do see it I end up just throwing it at their face EOT to cycle it. Cut it? Go back to 2? Leave it at 1?
5- My manabase- 25 lands, or 24, and why? I hate missing land drops, but if 24 lands feels fine Ill gladly trim one (if I did, which one?) Also, do you guys think the manabase looks fine, or are there any glaring (or even not so glaring) issues you guys see it?
6- My sideboard- I havent had any issues with Keranos myself, but I see what you guys are getting at. Is Elspeth SC actually considerably better? I run 2 Molten Rains because I absolutely detest tron, am I wrong in doing so? I would also like to find a place for RIP and Grafdigger's cage, do I run one or the other or both? Living end and dredge are both miserable matchups, but I dont know what to cut to hate these out, If I even want to. (Also 2 dispels have felt great, amazing in mirror matches, good against chord/coco decks, overall, I'd definitely say they've put their weight as a surprisingly broad answer, but should I cut one for more "silver bullet" cards?) Any other input and advice on sideboard would be awesome.
7- Things Ive been wanting to play around with- 2 Pia and Kira Nalaar, or 2 Kitchen finks (If anything I would add 2x of one or the other, not both. I think these cards could do some cool stuff with the deck, and they synergize well with resto angels. Might be something to try depending on meta?) elspeth, knight-errant- I think she would be a good plaeswalker as a 1-of in the maindeck to help close out the game, but at the same time, it might be a little too "win more," maybe? (I think having a deck with 2 k finks and 1 elpseth in there could be awesome though, letting you mighty leap the Geists and the Finks for some nasty beats. However this would probably cut the Vendilion Cliques and I dont know if I want to do that)
Any other feedback and suggestions in general would be very much welcome and appreciated, thanks in advance.
This might be a stretch -and I know Geist of Saint Traft is widely considered the best threat for this deck around these parts- but with less twin, there should be less Lightning Bolt; could we see Mantis Rider become a more viable threat? I personally have always liked Mantis Rider, putting a lot of pressure on your opponent really fast, and allowing us to play both offense and defense pretty effectively. What do we think?
I personally like Monastery Mentor if anything in a more spell heavy deck. I run 4x Monastery Mentor and 4x Snapcaster and Monastery Mentor honestly has a ridiculous impact on the battlefield for a 3 drop. It's crazy how powerful that card can be sometimes and it goes well with instant speed spells that are not reactionary like our own lightning bolts and lightning helix. I understand people that prefer to run creatures wont like that approach as it's more control otherwise however.
I think we're on two different sides of the coin, Im trying to make the deck more aggressive with rider, and youre going for more controling with mentor. Nothing wrong with either approach, its just interesting how much that three-drop slot can change the overall deck
This might be a stretch -and I know Geist of Saint Traft is widely considered the best threat for this deck around these parts- but with less twin, there should be less Lightning Bolt; could we see Mantis Rider become a more viable threat? I personally have always liked Mantis Rider, putting a lot of pressure on your opponent really fast, and allowing us to play both offense and defense pretty effectively. What do we think?
Going off of what Nevelo said, I do think another geist could be added, but 4 feels a little heavy. I experimented running the two geists main + 1 more in the sideboard, but I found myself not being sure when was the right time to bring it in. I agree that electrolyze is very powerful, I am not even considering cutting it. I like boros charm quite a bit, but in all honesty, I am not in love with izzet charm, I just kinda feel all modes are pretty mediocre. That being said, I've never actually played with it, so maybe its another one of those cards that feels a lot better than it looks. I'll consider giving it a shot. I do think the commands are gone, Im gonna find spots a full playset of Lightning angels, a Thundermaw hellkite, maybe another geist, and 2 spell pierce. or maybe 1 spell pierce, 1 spell snare? 1 izzet charm? Any suggestions as far as the last two counter spells go? Thundermaw hellkite definitely deserves one spot in the main, you're right that lingering souls would do me over real quick. I might even toss an aditional one in the side depending on how I like it, who knows.
On a sidenote, I cant get over how amazing Keranos is. In my testing haven't had any opponent come back from a resolved Keranos
Saw Geist's reply and was going to mention that on occasion I've seen a more aggro Jeskai use Mantis along side Lightning Angel, then I saw the list.
It looks interesting. I'd be inclined to cut the Cryptics and a Visions for more Remands, Helixes, and such. The shell seems like it wants to play the aggro-tempo role, not midrange-control.
Right. I was tired when I wrote my reply. If you are going to run the Mantis Riders then there is very little reason to run the serum visions and cryptic because at that point you basically are running a heavy tempo/aggro deck. Boros CharmRemand and Lightning Helix would all immensely help that plan. I'd also want to recommend one of the hasty dragons like Thundermaw Hellkite as a finisher to get through Lingering Souls which your list is going to have trouble with.
I hope I didn't sound harsh on your list, but it does have a much different playstyle then the other lists posted here. And I really do think you are underestimating Geist of Saint Traft. For Mainboard Recommendations:
Again, if you want a 5cc finisher, I'd drop another Lightning Angel for it. I'd also recommend dropping the Mantis Riders as a whole, but if they work for you, they work. I know that they will win games on occasion, being a multi turn lightning bolt to the face and blocker, but a lot of the time it will just be a 3cc spell that taps you out turn 3 and dies to an instant speed removal (which would leave you tapped out on your opponent's typical "combo turn").
I'm imagining you play this list as a heavy aggro list, like a 4 color burn that runs blue for snapcaster and your haste creatures and the occasional tempo remand play. That is why I recommended the Boros Charms, because burn runs them (and because they are useful with both snapcaster and geist of saint traft protection).
ah, I replied without seeing this. Well I do think you're right, I'm trying to play a slightly different strategy, although I dont think its too different. I did look at that UWR aggro primer and consider it, but I kinda liked the midrange reactive aproach. I think I could do more commitment to being aggressive though, so 2 boros charm instead of those serum visions does sound like the move. I do think I want to remove cryptics, I just tested dispel against my friend's rug twin and absolutely loved it. I'll be trying different combinations as far as my counter spell suite goes, suggestions for that are very welcome
Geist of Saint Traft traft is better than mantis rider. One dies to every removal spell in the format. The other only does to blocking, pyroclasm, and liliana. One puts your opponent on a 6 turn clock (assuming fetch damage) one puts them on a 3 Turn clock.
One advantage this type of deck has is that it makes all of your opponent's removal useless. Mantis rider turns it on. I also think restoration angel is better than lightning angel. Same size but one has flash and saves geist. Flash is huge.
I'd recommend upping to 4 geist and running the mantis sideboard.
The thing is, I've play tested with both, and to me it seems like geist just kinda sits around waiting for the board to clear up; a flashed in snapcaster feels just as dangerous to geist as bolt does to mantis. I do think that if I run cryptic commands, Im gonna run the three resto angels. Being able to drop one of those if you dont need to use the command is awesome. If I run mantis rider, which ive liked in a lot of my testing,I think lightning angel feels pretty good, as I mentioned I really like the immediate pressure these cards are able to apply. Or what if I did 3 and 3 geist and mantis split?
On a sidenote, in terms of counterspells, I dont know how much I like 3 Leak 2 Remand, I mean it works but I think there could be better. What do you guys think about trying 3 remand 2 negate? Negate seems narrow, but it actually straight up stops a lot of different threats, and holds its value as the game goes on.
In my testing, I've been immensely pleased with mantis rider and lightning angel, the amount of pressure they deliver as soon as they hit the board is just awesome. Yes, mantis rider can be bolted, but you'd be surprised at how often it goes unanswered and does some serious beating. Not to mention the fact that both these guys play offense and defense without skipping a beat, flying over board stalls while keeping up a wall. Having 2 Geist of Saint Traft feels right, I feel like I usually see him only when I need him. One change I've been considering is getting rid of cryptic command, and maybe putting in dispel, I've just felt that holding up 4 mana is not usually what I want to be doing, and I think I would rather just have a bit of 1 mana protection for my boltable friend. What do you guys think on that change and the deck in general. Feedback, suggestions and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged.
Ah good point, I moved my fetches down to 3 to accommodate for 2 of each shockland, do you think its more worth it to move down to 1 shockland each and 4 fetchlands each? I can do it no problem, I just thought it might be worth to have multiples of the shocks. Also since I'm playing steppe lynx, I'm considering going up to 22 lands either with 2 more horizon canopy, or 1 canopy and 1 more stomping ground or something, thoughts on that? Anything you'd recommend cutting to make room for that?
Good point about the collected co, theres probably better much better ways to fill that slot in a deck like that because only KotR would truly make that worth it. I think I like boros charm if I had to choose, I think the final decision between that and dromoka's will come down to depending on my local meta.
I like both knight and smiter a whole whole lot, but I feel the knight is a little better with steppe lynx (I mean thanks to knight, your lynx can go up to an 8/9, how's that for a 1 mana beater?). I would also enjoy a list with Loam Lion instead of steppe lynx and the smiter instead of the knight, both seem very fun.
Any more comments or suggestions on the rest of the deck/sideboard? I'd like as much feedback as possible)
Hi so I'm really interested in playing zoo, and I honestly would much prefer to go with a traditional style zoo rather than the Brian Kibler style midrange one with the hierarchs. I've been following based Lantern's videos and such, and the one where he mentions that that traditional style of zoo is practically dead worried me. How dead is it actually? I find it hard to believe that its become unplayable, but I could be wrong. I also wonder if theres a way to throw Collected Company into the smaller zoo? I just really dont want to play mana dorks to be honest. So here's what I am considering running with, feedback would be greatly appreciated
So again feedback is appreciated, and I have a couple specific questions/comments to start that feedback.
Mana base is a work in progress, I haven't really had problems with it, but not being well versed with the carefully calibrated, thoroughly calculated and well combobulated science involved in 3+ coloured decks, tips on improving that would be great.
If I was to jam 2 collected company in there, would it be too forced? I know zoo is supposed to have a low curve, but playtesting on cockatrice (being a mac owner = no mtgo for me sadly) has shown me that reaching that 4th land is not hard to do at all, so maybe it would be doable?
Boros charm could just as easily become dromoka's command, and in playtesting, I've liked both but neither one stands out more than the other. What do you guys prefer? what have you had success with, all that jazz. (Atarka's command is another contender for this slot, but I think I like the first two options just a little more. Oppinions?)
I know traditional zoo generally curves out at 2, is there a particular reason? I've been liking the list with the KotR in there, it makes for some great plays with steppe lynx, (plus that super tasty land utility action is hard to beat). I havent really found myself in a position where I haven't been able to cast it. What benefit would I really get from leaving the knight out and curving out at 2?
I've been saving up for tarmogoyfs and I'm almostttt there, so flinthoof boar is on its way out as soon as that happens.
Other than that, I've already got playsets of all the lands in my manabase as well as bolts, paths, helixes, knights, so I think I'm in pretty good shape it would just be a matter of getting the rest of the deck. I happen to have 3 collected co's, which is why I'm inclined to maybe throw them in. What do you guys think? (I am also new here, so this being my first post, I apologize if my formatting is bad or anything, but I tried)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Butcher of the Horde
SPELLS (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bitterblossom
LAND (23)
3 Shambling Vent
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 blackcleave cliffs
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Painful Truths
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Celestial Purge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Wear // Tear
1 Path to Exile
1 Dreadbore
1 Hallowed Moonlight
Overall, I really like the feel of the deck, since I basically get to remove whatever I want, whenever I want. I would like the community's feedback on it, in particular I feel that the sideboard needs the most help
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
SPELLS (23)
3 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning helix
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
3 Steam vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
2 plains
1 mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
1 Negate
2 Dispel
1 Wear // Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Wrath of God
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 molten rain
So for starters, I would like feedback on the following aspects-
1- Mana Leak vs Remand- I know the community is very much at odds on this, with people advocating strongly for both sides. I personally REALLY like remand, but I dont think I've given leak enough testing (for the same reason that I love remand. ESPECIALLY in conjuction with snapcaster mage <3) But Im open to try it. Should I run a split? or 4 of one (I personally think comitting to 1 over the other is probably better, but its just a hunch, I dont have any reasoning to back that up) So I guess I want to be persuaded, why run one over the other, and why run a split? (or maybe 3 leak 1 logic knot?)
2- Spell snare- In my playtesting, this card has really over performed. I know some of you guys are cutting it, but I have no intentions of doing so, to be honest. Yeah, it seems like its too narrow, but when it actually comes down to it, there are just SO many relevant 2 mana spells in modern, and I dont want to leave home without spell snare. Do I leave it in? Or is there something you guys will do to persuade me that theres better stuff I could be running in that slot?
3- Lightning Helix- Im running 3, and have been running 3 from the very start. I see a lot of you, if not most of you, running the full 4. I haven't found myself wishing for a 4th helix, but is there an argument for it? What would even be worth cutting for a 4th helix?
4- Electrolyze- I used to run 2, and I LOVED the card. Now that I cut it down to 1, I feel like I never see the card when I want it, and when I do see it I end up just throwing it at their face EOT to cycle it. Cut it? Go back to 2? Leave it at 1?
5- My manabase- 25 lands, or 24, and why? I hate missing land drops, but if 24 lands feels fine Ill gladly trim one (if I did, which one?) Also, do you guys think the manabase looks fine, or are there any glaring (or even not so glaring) issues you guys see it?
6- My sideboard- I havent had any issues with Keranos myself, but I see what you guys are getting at. Is Elspeth SC actually considerably better? I run 2 Molten Rains because I absolutely detest tron, am I wrong in doing so? I would also like to find a place for RIP and Grafdigger's cage, do I run one or the other or both? Living end and dredge are both miserable matchups, but I dont know what to cut to hate these out, If I even want to. (Also 2 dispels have felt great, amazing in mirror matches, good against chord/coco decks, overall, I'd definitely say they've put their weight as a surprisingly broad answer, but should I cut one for more "silver bullet" cards?) Any other input and advice on sideboard would be awesome.
7- Things Ive been wanting to play around with- 2 Pia and Kira Nalaar, or 2 Kitchen finks (If anything I would add 2x of one or the other, not both. I think these cards could do some cool stuff with the deck, and they synergize well with resto angels. Might be something to try depending on meta?) elspeth, knight-errant- I think she would be a good plaeswalker as a 1-of in the maindeck to help close out the game, but at the same time, it might be a little too "win more," maybe? (I think having a deck with 2 k finks and 1 elpseth in there could be awesome though, letting you mighty leap the Geists and the Finks for some nasty beats. However this would probably cut the Vendilion Cliques and I dont know if I want to do that)
Any other feedback and suggestions in general would be very much welcome and appreciated, thanks in advance.
I think we're on two different sides of the coin, Im trying to make the deck more aggressive with rider, and youre going for more controling with mentor. Nothing wrong with either approach, its just interesting how much that three-drop slot can change the overall deck
On a sidenote, I cant get over how amazing Keranos is. In my testing haven't had any opponent come back from a resolved Keranos
ah, I replied without seeing this. Well I do think you're right, I'm trying to play a slightly different strategy, although I dont think its too different. I did look at that UWR aggro primer and consider it, but I kinda liked the midrange reactive aproach. I think I could do more commitment to being aggressive though, so 2 boros charm instead of those serum visions does sound like the move. I do think I want to remove cryptics, I just tested dispel against my friend's rug twin and absolutely loved it. I'll be trying different combinations as far as my counter spell suite goes, suggestions for that are very welcome
The thing is, I've play tested with both, and to me it seems like geist just kinda sits around waiting for the board to clear up; a flashed in snapcaster feels just as dangerous to geist as bolt does to mantis. I do think that if I run cryptic commands, Im gonna run the three resto angels. Being able to drop one of those if you dont need to use the command is awesome. If I run mantis rider, which ive liked in a lot of my testing,I think lightning angel feels pretty good, as I mentioned I really like the immediate pressure these cards are able to apply. Or what if I did 3 and 3 geist and mantis split?
On a sidenote, in terms of counterspells, I dont know how much I like 3 Leak 2 Remand, I mean it works but I think there could be better. What do you guys think about trying 3 remand 2 negate? Negate seems narrow, but it actually straight up stops a lot of different threats, and holds its value as the game goes on.
2x geist of saint traft
3x lightning angel
1x restoration angel
4x snapcaster mage
spells (22)
2x serum visions
4x lightning bolt
4x path to exile
3x lightning helix
3x mana leak
2x remand
2x electrolyze
2x cryptic command
3x celestial colonnade
4x arid mesa
4x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand
2x hallowed fountain
2x steam vents
1x sacred foundry
2x mountain
2x island
1x plains
1x ghost quarter
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Keranos, god of storms
1x Vendilion clique
1x Geist of saint traft
1x Rest in peace
2x Stony silence
2x Rending volley
1x Sphinx's revelation
2x Wear/tear
2x anger of the gods
In my testing, I've been immensely pleased with mantis rider and lightning angel, the amount of pressure they deliver as soon as they hit the board is just awesome. Yes, mantis rider can be bolted, but you'd be surprised at how often it goes unanswered and does some serious beating. Not to mention the fact that both these guys play offense and defense without skipping a beat, flying over board stalls while keeping up a wall. Having 2 Geist of Saint Traft feels right, I feel like I usually see him only when I need him. One change I've been considering is getting rid of cryptic command, and maybe putting in dispel, I've just felt that holding up 4 mana is not usually what I want to be doing, and I think I would rather just have a bit of 1 mana protection for my boltable friend. What do you guys think on that change and the deck in general. Feedback, suggestions and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged.
Good point about the collected co, theres probably better much better ways to fill that slot in a deck like that because only KotR would truly make that worth it. I think I like boros charm if I had to choose, I think the final decision between that and dromoka's will come down to depending on my local meta.
I like both knight and smiter a whole whole lot, but I feel the knight is a little better with steppe lynx (I mean thanks to knight, your lynx can go up to an 8/9, how's that for a 1 mana beater?). I would also enjoy a list with Loam Lion instead of steppe lynx and the smiter instead of the knight, both seem very fun.
Any more comments or suggestions on the rest of the deck/sideboard? I'd like as much feedback as possible)
2 Horizon canopy
1 slayers' stronghold
3 windswept heath
3 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
2 temple garden
2 stomping ground
2 sacred foundry
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
4 steppe lynx
4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
3 flinthoof boar
3 scavenging ooze
2 qasali pridemage
3 Knight of the reliquary
4 ghor-clan rampager
Instants (13)
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
3 lightning helix
2 boros charm
3 rending volley
1 leyline of sanctity
3 rest for the weary
2 stony silence
1 bojuka bog
1 sejiri steppe
2 molten rain
1 destructive revelry
1 kataki, war's wage
So again feedback is appreciated, and I have a couple specific questions/comments to start that feedback.
Other than that, I've already got playsets of all the lands in my manabase as well as bolts, paths, helixes, knights, so I think I'm in pretty good shape it would just be a matter of getting the rest of the deck. I happen to have 3 collected co's, which is why I'm inclined to maybe throw them in. What do you guys think? (I am also new here, so this being my first post, I apologize if my formatting is bad or anything, but I tried)