Let me first explain what myself and a group of people are planning. Basically the eight of us want to create a set to eight-man draft.
Right now we figure we'd get together, discuss keywords, general themes, and so forth; then get each person to create some equally split amount of cards amongst the group.
Then we get back together at some point and critique and edit. Do that until that we think the cards are balanced and fair then proceed to have the actual draft.
Since we haven't done anything like this before, it seems reasonable to seek advice from those who have or might have more experience with creation of sets.
So does anyone have any tips, for the creation process or anything like that? They would greatly be appreciated. Some questions I can immediately think of now:
1. How big should we make it?
2. Should the fact that it is a draft only set influence creation somehow?
3. Should each person get a keyword?
Concerning the Iname talk. I'm surprised to hear that it's underrated or some such. I stand by the idea that if anything says "Any number of..." then it's probably break-able.
Just having Songs of the Damned and any Living Death effects means you win with 7 mana barring instant-speed graveyard removal and counterspells. But that's why we're black and have hand disruption cards!
I have an Iname list but I'll bow down to Evergreen for the purposes of this thread. Though after I clean up my Erayo build I'll see if you want to include that here.
Great idea, love it and the descriptions for the deck you make. Those are probably the things I'm most excited about.
Also, for sac outlets, I could easily run [card]High Market[/c]. But I'm weary of running too much sacrifice things as I don't run many creatures anyways. So apart from land sacrifices, I think nothing else should go in.
Concerning removal, I figured that it wouldn't really matter as if I'm anywhere near winning at all I'm going to have Kozilek on the board. And if he attacks, I don't need to do much removal after that. But I could be wrong on this matter.
I'm not sure if it's running enough lands as this is merely a fictional deck at the moment. But I think I'm going to try and calculate the average turn that Kozilek can come down.
Alright so I've done some calculations and I'll explain them so you can disagree or agree with some assumptions.
Firstly, my method was to average the mana coming out of each mana cost and the average mana coming out of each land. This was a trivial to explain averaging process of the amount of mana each card produced with some specific functions on some of the cards on the following cards:
Chalice is counted for each of the 2, 4, and 6 groups.
Jeweled Amulet's value is 1.
Lotus Bloom's value is 1.5 since it dies after it gets used.
Candelabra's value is 1.25. A lower bound, imo.
Mana Vault's value is 1.5 since it gets used up for a bit
Dynamo's value is 1 since it's specific use
Voltaic Key's value is 1.
Doubling Cube's value is 2
Grim Monolith's value is 1.5 since it gets used up.
Blossom's value is 1.
Basalt Monolith's value is 1.5 since it gets used up.
Cloud Key's value is 1.
Relic's value is 1.5
Kyren Toy's value is 1.
Sculpting Steel's value is 2.
Blinkmoth Urn's value is 2. Again an underestimator.
Clock of Omen's value is 1. Imo also low.
Diamond Kaleidoscope's value is 1 and so is the Array.
Cauldron's is too. This is the one where a value is rather hard to describe.
Ironwork's value is 2. Also low I think.
Planar Gate's value is 2, since by this time the mana should really be going to Kozilek.
And then I just assumed one mana accelerator per turn and one land. I bounded it by assuming that each mana accelerator drawn had the worst average, namely 1.136, for a upper bound and that each had the best average for an lower bound.
And got Turn 2 to Turn 5. As the typical range. Now, there's a few things this obviously doesn't take into consideration, such as drawing a mana accelerator that is too expensive. Or drawing one of the non-accelerators. But I tried to take the lowest possibilities to lean on the side of caution as much as possible. Therefore I think Turn 4 or 5 is perfectly reasonable for the deck. And if I get this guy out Turn 4 chances are he's gonna cause some problems. Especially if he can come down the following turn even if you kill him.
I completely agree with shortening the combo-off time.
All it takes is the combo player to just explain the steps of his combo and show the cards. Then if anyone else can do anything then they pip up, else just end the game there.
I think what Surging Chaos' experience is exactly what gives combo a bad name for masturbation. There is no need to watch someone go through the tedious steps.
Does Tooth and Nail literally go through the steps of making tons of Pestermites?
Does Worldgorger Combo actually recur the dragon X times until it can kill you?
The only times when the combo should be run through its steps is when it might be stopped. Even then it might be reasonable/possible to just ask if anyone has an answer to it. Though this is the only possible problem area.
I don't play with it that often so I forgot. Well then, guess we only have colourless sources of protection, Defense Grid.
Though I wouldn't want to water down the excel-factor as swinging with a guy with Annihilator 4 is the #1 priority. As well as shouting and generally causing a ruckus.
The Dynamo and the Powerstone were the two cards I had on the tip of my tongue, thanks for freshening my memory.
I think I'm going to be doing a look through all the artifact mana excel later today and post back with a list.
The only thing I really see causing it much probably is counterspells. But then I could just play Boseju. Also, I would be able to play a ton of nice utility lands anyways, which I love and usually end up hurting myself in decks with colour restriction, but yay there is no here!
Though I know of others I just can't think of their names. I'm sure it's possible to accumulate a list of 60 or so artifact excel and then just plop in the rest full of lands.
This seems legitimate as a 1v1 general since it could be possible to drop this guy as early as turn 5 I suppose, though I wonder how fast theoretically...
Ancient Tomb -> Mana Crypt -> Lotus Petal -> Gilded Lotus -> Mana Vault
And that is enough mana to cast him on turn 2. Might be possible to get him down turn 1. But that's not the point.
Even if the opponent answers him, you draw 4 cards and that'll give you more mana excel to shoot him back out.
The ideal situation is to dump all the Spirits in the grave, 27, and play Songs of the Damned followed by a Living Death effect. Then you have about 20 black mana left over. Then it goes like this:
Kemuri-Onna forces one to discard
Keening Banshee kills something
Kuro kills all creatures for 1 life per creature
Then
Sac the Zubera to He Who Hungers, 2 cards discarded (3 total now with 19 B)
Sac a Soulshift spirit to get back the Zubera, play it, Kyoki removes a card (5 total with 16 B)
Sac the Zubera to He Who Hungers again, 3 cards discarded (8 total with 15 B)
Sac a soulshift spirit to get it back, play it, Kyoki triggers, (10 total with 12 B)
Sac Zubera, discard 4, (14 total with 11 B)
Recurr. (16 total with 8 B)
Sac, discard 5. (21 total with 7 B)
Recurr. (23 total with 5 B)
Sac, discard 6. (29 total with 4 B)
Recurr. (31 total with 1 B)
and Sac to discard 7 cards for a total of 38 cards discarded for 20 Black mana.
That's enough to disable almost six players while having complete creature control. Good enough for me, =P
There are other things the deck can do but this is it's prime combo.
I'm mostly interested in what you think the viability of the deck is in the current Standard. I've always loved Identity Crisis and I was glad to find a deck where it could be abused. The problem is that in a metagame with as much aggro it doesn't seem as strong since hands empty quickly.
But regardless the deck is capable of laying it down turn three, as well as Summoning Trap, and it is still backbreaking then most of the time. The other inherent weakness of the deck is the removibility of the mana dorks. In a format with Burst Lightning, Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile it could potentially just stall out. The counter-argument here that I'm sure most have heard is that if the removal spell is pointed at the mana dorks then it isn't going to the Angel's.
Anyways. The mainboard targets for Summoning Trap all have some ability to protect themselves. The only other creature I was considering was Inkwell Leviathan. In any case though, comments and suggestions appreciated.
I play an Iname deck myself and I can say that it is interesting to consider all the options. I just think that anything that says "any number of" is inherently busted. Haha; though I'm glad to see he's running Songs of the Damned. I love the complete dominance the deck can get once it resolves the Living Death. And the synergy with Soulshift is very appealing at times.
The deck does well in Multiplayer too because it doesn't really 'do' much of anything until it combos off. I'm very very happy to see an Iname deck in Top 2.
Edit:
Oh, and yeah. Graveyard removal is pretty much good game most of the time.
Let me first explain what myself and a group of people are planning. Basically the eight of us want to create a set to eight-man draft.
Right now we figure we'd get together, discuss keywords, general themes, and so forth; then get each person to create some equally split amount of cards amongst the group.
Then we get back together at some point and critique and edit. Do that until that we think the cards are balanced and fair then proceed to have the actual draft.
Since we haven't done anything like this before, it seems reasonable to seek advice from those who have or might have more experience with creation of sets.
So does anyone have any tips, for the creation process or anything like that? They would greatly be appreciated. Some questions I can immediately think of now:
1. How big should we make it?
2. Should the fact that it is a draft only set influence creation somehow?
3. Should each person get a keyword?
Not that great I suppose
Just having Songs of the Damned and any Living Death effects means you win with 7 mana barring instant-speed graveyard removal and counterspells. But that's why we're black and have hand disruption cards!
I have an Iname list but I'll bow down to Evergreen for the purposes of this thread. Though after I clean up my Erayo build I'll see if you want to include that here.
Great idea, love it and the descriptions for the deck you make. Those are probably the things I'm most excited about.
A tribal EDH spirit deck with Iname, Death Aspect as the general can be quite impressive with Living Death effects and good internal combos
e.g Kuro, Pitlord and Horobi, Death's Wail
e.g.2 He Who Hungers, Ashen-skin Zubera, soulshift spirits and a decent amount of mana. (Even better with Kyoki, Sanity's Eclipse and Infernal Kirin)
Also, for sac outlets, I could easily run [card]High Market[/c]. But I'm weary of running too much sacrifice things as I don't run many creatures anyways. So apart from land sacrifices, I think nothing else should go in.
Concerning removal, I figured that it wouldn't really matter as if I'm anywhere near winning at all I'm going to have Kozilek on the board. And if he attacks, I don't need to do much removal after that. But I could be wrong on this matter.
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Power Sources(44):
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Mana Crypt
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Voltaic Key
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Doubling Cube
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Grim Monolith
1 Guardian Idol
1 Lotus Blossom
1 Mind Stone
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Cloud Key
1 Coalition Relic
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Kyren Toy
1 Mana Prism
1 Phyrexian Lens
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Serum Powder
1 Sol Grail
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Urza's Incubator
1 Ventifact Bottle
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Blinkmoth Urn
1 Clock of Omens
1 Diamond Kaleidoscope
1 Gemstone Array
1 Ice Cauldron
1 Khalni Gem
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Thran Turbine
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Planar Gate
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Workhorse
The Great Beast's Robes(9):
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Cloak and Dagger
1 Helm of Kaldra
1 Obsidian Battle-Axe
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Shield of Kaldra
1 General's Kabuto
The Great Beast's Toys(3):
1 Mishra's Helix
1 That Which Was Taken
1 Tower of Eons
The Great Beast's Lands(39):
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blasted Landscape
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth Well
1 Crystal Vein
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Desert
1 Deserted Temple
1 Dread Statuary
1 Dust Bowl
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ghost Town
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Lotus Vale
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Petrified Field
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rishadan Port
1 Scorched Ruins
1 Stalking Stones
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper
1 Urza's Factory
1 Urza's Mine
1 Urza's Power Plant
1 Urza's Tower
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Winding Canyons
1 Zoetic Caverns
Alright so I've done some calculations and I'll explain them so you can disagree or agree with some assumptions.
Firstly, my method was to average the mana coming out of each mana cost and the average mana coming out of each land. This was a trivial to explain averaging process of the amount of mana each card produced with some specific functions on some of the cards on the following cards:
Chalice is counted for each of the 2, 4, and 6 groups.
Jeweled Amulet's value is 1.
Lotus Bloom's value is 1.5 since it dies after it gets used.
Candelabra's value is 1.25. A lower bound, imo.
Mana Vault's value is 1.5 since it gets used up for a bit
Dynamo's value is 1 since it's specific use
Voltaic Key's value is 1.
Doubling Cube's value is 2
Grim Monolith's value is 1.5 since it gets used up.
Blossom's value is 1.
Basalt Monolith's value is 1.5 since it gets used up.
Cloud Key's value is 1.
Relic's value is 1.5
Kyren Toy's value is 1.
Sculpting Steel's value is 2.
Blinkmoth Urn's value is 2. Again an underestimator.
Clock of Omen's value is 1. Imo also low.
Diamond Kaleidoscope's value is 1 and so is the Array.
Cauldron's is too. This is the one where a value is rather hard to describe.
Ironwork's value is 2. Also low I think.
Planar Gate's value is 2, since by this time the mana should really be going to Kozilek.
And with that I got averages of:
land - 1.051
0 - 1.5
1 - 1.35
2 - 1.136
3 - 1.267
4 - 1.8
5 - 2.5
6 - 2.5
And then I just assumed one mana accelerator per turn and one land. I bounded it by assuming that each mana accelerator drawn had the worst average, namely 1.136, for a upper bound and that each had the best average for an lower bound.
And got Turn 2 to Turn 5. As the typical range. Now, there's a few things this obviously doesn't take into consideration, such as drawing a mana accelerator that is too expensive. Or drawing one of the non-accelerators. But I tried to take the lowest possibilities to lean on the side of caution as much as possible. Therefore I think Turn 4 or 5 is perfectly reasonable for the deck. And if I get this guy out Turn 4 chances are he's gonna cause some problems. Especially if he can come down the following turn even if you kill him.
All it takes is the combo player to just explain the steps of his combo and show the cards. Then if anyone else can do anything then they pip up, else just end the game there.
I think what Surging Chaos' experience is exactly what gives combo a bad name for masturbation. There is no need to watch someone go through the tedious steps.
Does Tooth and Nail literally go through the steps of making tons of Pestermites?
Does Worldgorger Combo actually recur the dragon X times until it can kill you?
The only times when the combo should be run through its steps is when it might be stopped. Even then it might be reasonable/possible to just ask if anyone has an answer to it. Though this is the only possible problem area.
I don't play with it that often so I forgot. Well then, guess we only have colourless sources of protection, Defense Grid.
Though I wouldn't want to water down the excel-factor as swinging with a guy with Annihilator 4 is the #1 priority. As well as shouting and generally causing a ruckus.
Probably terrible in multiplayer, mind you.
I think I'm going to be doing a look through all the artifact mana excel later today and post back with a list.
The only thing I really see causing it much probably is counterspells. But then I could just play Boseju. Also, I would be able to play a ton of nice utility lands anyways, which I love and usually end up hurting myself in decks with colour restriction, but yay there is no here!
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Diamond
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Basalt Monolith
Grim Monolith
Gilded Lotus
Ur Golem's Eye
Though I know of others I just can't think of their names. I'm sure it's possible to accumulate a list of 60 or so artifact excel and then just plop in the rest full of lands.
This seems legitimate as a 1v1 general since it could be possible to drop this guy as early as turn 5 I suppose, though I wonder how fast theoretically...
Ancient Tomb -> Mana Crypt -> Lotus Petal -> Gilded Lotus -> Mana Vault
And that is enough mana to cast him on turn 2. Might be possible to get him down turn 1. But that's not the point.
Even if the opponent answers him, you draw 4 cards and that'll give you more mana excel to shoot him back out.
Ideas?
1 Iname, Death Aspect
Creatures(28):
1 Ghost-Lit Stalker
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Will-o'-the-Wisp
1 Nether Shadow
1 Nether Traitor
1 Keeper of the Dead
1 Bloodghast
1 Ashen-Skin Zubera
1 Moonglove Changeling
1 Infernal Kirin
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gibbering Kami
1 Horobi, Death's Wail
1 Keening Banshee
1 Akuta, Born of Ash
1 He Who Hungers
1 Cairn Wanderer
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Scuttling Death
1 Kemuri-Onna
1 Revenant
1 Midnight Banshee
1 Kyoki, Sanity's Eclipse
1 Kami of Lunacy
1 Pus Kami
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Kuro, Pitlord
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Journeyer's Kite
1 Jet Medallion
1 Coalition Relic
Enchants(4):
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Grave Pact
1 Tombstone Stairwell
1 Mortal Combat
Instants(7):
1 Soulshriek
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Ghoul's Feast
1 Nameless Inversion
1 Horobi's Whisper
1 Rend Flesh
Sorceries(17):
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Profane Command
1 Mind Shatter
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Mutilate
1 Living End
1 Living Death
1 Mind Sludge
1 Patriarch's Bidding
1 Twilight's Call
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 Cabal Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
26 Swamp
The ideal situation is to dump all the Spirits in the grave, 27, and play Songs of the Damned followed by a Living Death effect. Then you have about 20 black mana left over. Then it goes like this:
Kemuri-Onna forces one to discard
Keening Banshee kills something
Kuro kills all creatures for 1 life per creature
Then
Sac the Zubera to He Who Hungers, 2 cards discarded (3 total now with 19 B)
Sac a Soulshift spirit to get back the Zubera, play it, Kyoki removes a card (5 total with 16 B)
Sac the Zubera to He Who Hungers again, 3 cards discarded (8 total with 15 B)
Sac a soulshift spirit to get it back, play it, Kyoki triggers, (10 total with 12 B)
Sac Zubera, discard 4, (14 total with 11 B)
Recurr. (16 total with 8 B)
Sac, discard 5. (21 total with 7 B)
Recurr. (23 total with 5 B)
Sac, discard 6. (29 total with 4 B)
Recurr. (31 total with 1 B)
and Sac to discard 7 cards for a total of 38 cards discarded for 20 Black mana.
That's enough to disable almost six players while having complete creature control. Good enough for me, =P
There are other things the deck can do but this is it's prime combo.
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Rafiq of the Many
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Empyrial Archangel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Maelstorm Pulse
4 Harrow
4 Summoning Trap
4 Identity Crisis
Lands(23):
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Drowned Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
I'm mostly interested in what you think the viability of the deck is in the current Standard. I've always loved Identity Crisis and I was glad to find a deck where it could be abused. The problem is that in a metagame with as much aggro it doesn't seem as strong since hands empty quickly.
But regardless the deck is capable of laying it down turn three, as well as Summoning Trap, and it is still backbreaking then most of the time. The other inherent weakness of the deck is the removibility of the mana dorks. In a format with Burst Lightning, Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile it could potentially just stall out. The counter-argument here that I'm sure most have heard is that if the removal spell is pointed at the mana dorks then it isn't going to the Angel's.
Anyways. The mainboard targets for Summoning Trap all have some ability to protect themselves. The only other creature I was considering was Inkwell Leviathan. In any case though, comments and suggestions appreciated.
The deck does well in Multiplayer too because it doesn't really 'do' much of anything until it combos off. I'm very very happy to see an Iname deck in Top 2.
Edit:
Oh, and yeah. Graveyard removal is pretty much good game most of the time.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Baru, Fist of Krosa
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Soramaro, First to Dream
Uyo, Silent Prophet
Patron of the Moon
Take your pick!