I dunno, to keep WRR and Frites from completely dominating now that their major threats are pretty much safe?
This isn't a thread "whining about counterspells".
It's about the direction they are pushing Blue control,
and Stasis fits that paradigm, like it or not.
Because oh you know, those decks won't suffer from set rotation about 3 months after M13 comes out, and then we'll just have to live with Stasis in Standard for 1.8 years instead....
So Hinder is unplayable but a strictly-worse version would probably be banned?
If you think that Memory Lapse at 3 cmc is a strictly worse version of Hinder you have not played with the card enough.
When you Memory Lapse something you are setting them back an entire draw. You know what is on top of their deck. You know it's not any number of other problematic cards.
Against a Ramp player you Memory Lapse a Rampant Growth and if they have a solid grasp on the game they will probably just ask you to show them the Snapcaster Mage and they'll scoop. They lose 2 draws, and you severely out tempo them at the same time? Yeah, good luck with that one.
On turns 2-4 (possibly more, depending on the opponent) Memory Lapse is very easily comparable to Time Walk (more so than Remand because they might not have land to play in their hand).
Seriously, Memory Lapse is the most deceptively oppressive card.
Why should players that choose to run counters be allowed to have counters be a universal answer, given that other players running creatures are willing to run 4 main deck cards (lands, to be sure, but you know what I mean) that directly hinder this effect?
If say, a control player was willing to main deck 4 Timely Reinforcements, or a green player was willing to main deck 4 Great Sable Stag, or a Goblins/Merfolk/Elves player were willing to main deck 4 Aether Vials, should the Red/Faeries/Counter-top player NOT lose game 1?
This is all besides the fact that you can adapt pretty easily by just running less counters and running more spot removal/board control, which alot of Esper decks are moving towards anyway, relegating your counters to the sideboard for control mirrors.
And people who want to play Cavern of Souls and land creature after creature (of one type, mind you) can do that all they want as far as I'm concerned. I'll just Day of Judgement and get my 3/4/5-for-1 thank you very much.
1 . i dont honestly think there is a deck in standard right now that MB 6 counters...3-4 seems to be the max
2. Sure, there are sweepers...dismember, o-ring, blah blah blah, but picture this one for a minute.
T7 - drops that hideous land, names "Giant", casts Sun Titan, brings back 3 Immages and a land, sits back with negates knowing that you dont have any creatures with removal effects.
fun right? you see, this is a problem even for control players because now, if its a control vs control match, its gonna be "who lands the bomb first" type of game. its Jund all over again with Bloodbraids.
i dunno, i'm done worrying about it, i'll just adapt like always.
If the game has progressed to the point where they can land Sun Titan with 4 Images, with Negate in hand....I can assume you have Sever the Bloodline, or Surgical Extraction, or Nihil Spellbomb...or something with Negate in hand as well?
UB control could main deck 4-6 counters but doesn't because counters are bad against Delver. Delver decks frequently have access to up to 8 counters out of the sideboard (mostly for Ramp decks).
You admit that there are answers to creatures, and then you give me a scenario in which you use creatures to present a board state that can be dealt with by one card, despite your opponent spending several turns to set it up as well as a number of cards, as well as commit more mana than you.
You admit that you'll adapt to the meta/cardpool (LIKE ANY CONTROL PLAYER SHOULD), but you're complaining/worrying that will be impossible - but as above you have clearly shown that you can adapt to creatures. I don't get it.
Is your point that you shouldn't have to adapt at all or that it's ridiculous that Control players have to adapt to hate cards? Do you have any idea how much Mono-Red players groaned when Timely Reinforcements was printed? I assure you that no matter how bad Cavern of Souls is for control decks, Timely Reinforcements is worse for Mono-Red (especially given the existence of Snapcaster Mage).
Ok. I get it, Blue is getting shafted for the first time in two years so it's the end of the world.
Seriously, it's not. The power of colors always ebbs and flows. The same is true of [effect] in general. Blue has been at a high point (generally speaking) since at least Worldwake - Mana Leak, Preordain, Jace v2 AND Jace v1. 2 years before that you had Faeries...2 years before that you had Mystical Teachings/Teferi-based control decks, 1 year before that you had Compulsive Research+Remand+Spell Snare (fueling decks like Solar Flare), 1 year before that you had Gifts Ungiven fuelled Control decks.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Blue has historically speaking, been the most powerful color at a competitive level compared to every other color. The only color to even come close is Black, mostly on the back of bah-roken cards like Dark Ritual, Necro, Yawg Will, Yawg Bargain, etc. A large part of that is because Blue had a huge slice of the color pie, a very powerful portion of which is counters, instant speed card draw and card selection.
To allow other colors to be competitive necessitates nerfing Blue to an extent. Don't worry. If Blue is too weak, it'll be brought back up. If it's too strong it'll be brought down low.
That list of creatures you just listed? The vast majority of them are dealt with fairly easily with some combination of the following: Day of Judgement, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, Go for the Throat, Black Sun's Zenith. The fact that I can name 4 cards, and between those 4 cards I can deal with any number of X creatures you care to name should illustrate the fact that creatures are pretty easy to interact with.
Well as far as What kinds of new counters wizards is willing to make. You also have to consider they have to keep modern in mind now. So a 2cmc counter is prime territory for that format. They could easily print a seemingly overpowered standard legal counter, but also put a bunch of cards to hose it that would be considered too slow or underpowered for the eternal formats.
Personally I think Wizards NEEDS to take another crack at a 'free' counterspell for modern. That way they can fit more powerful cards for combo and other strategies without having to worry about control being killed off.
If it's a free counter, combo decks will just play it to force through the combo (see Hive Mind, Dream Halls, Splinter Twin, etc).
I think Wizards has by now see how powerful a mana-cost-free counter can be (despite a seemingly relevant draw back). I mean, look at Mental Misstep. Innocent looking, but the most format warping card from the set (short of perhaps, Dismember/Batterskull) in Standard.
oh but a land that makes your creatures uncounterable while giving you mana fixing for that type is fun right? its fun to have them whirlwind slam a titan on the field and says "response? OH YEAH YOU CANT!!!" right? its fun to sit back with negates and dissipates and DoJ's untill you hit the land to cast Lady GaGa fearlessly right? you guys are hilarious. you think counters are unfun? wait until you NEED them to solve the problem of threats always resolving. IDC if you run a deck full of different kind of creature types. your gonna learn the creature type of your biggest, baddest creature, and call it every time with CoS.
I did not say that Titans were fun. Don't put words in my mouth. I am just saying that a counter wall is also not fun.
But even assuming that I said that, for most people dealing with creatures once they're on board is alot easier/more fun than dealing with a hand of say, 6 counters and a Snapcaster.
Ghost Quarter exists. Sweepers exist. Oblivion Ring exists. Dismember exists. There are many, many ways to deal with permanents. There are not nearly as many ways to deal with a counter wall, especially one that starts on turn 2, and when the premier Aggro deck of the format runs about as many counters as a control deck can (especially post-board).
If you want counters to be powerful, expect there to be equally powerful ways of preventing counters from being useful. R&D will always provide solutions if to threats...so I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
For the record, I also agree that Hexproof in general is a super unfun, non-interactive key word...but nonetheless my point still stands: permanents are much easier to interact with than instants or sorceries. There exists in every card type (real card types, not Tribal) ways to interact with creatures in one way or another. The only type that can interact with counters are counters/discard themselves (for the sake of this discussion I am discounting hate cards, since it is unrealistic for people to run hate cards main deck unless they would generally be useful anyway).
It also depends on how you define interactivity. Sure, on the surface you're interacting with your opponent, but the interaction is all one sided. Counters prevent your opponent from playing the game (certain in a casual environment, but also competitively. By now we've all been on the wrong side of a Delver nut-draw). Creatures generally do not unless they're the one that kills you (again, hexproof is a bulls*** key word, have no idea what they were thinking).
You guys are silly. Have you taken a look at MTGO Daily and Star City Games results lately? Control decks are far from dead. It just so happens that Mana Leak is pretty bad against the best Aggro deck in the format.
Board-Control decks are still control decks. A control deck does not necessarily mean the inclusion of counter spells. Counters just happen to be useful because they are typically universal, albeit reactive answers.
As for Combo decks, any legit combo decks that could currently exist are probably kept down because of the dominance of Delver, a deck that can exert a lot of pressure as well as disrupt the combo pieces. Frites is the closest thing to a combo deck that exists, and when it goes off it's pretty unfair - a fundamental problem with combo decks is that when they're running they tend to feel very unfun to play against (aka functionally unbeatable god draws - see Storm or Heartbeat for reference).
UU
As an additional cost, pay 2 life.
Counter target spell.
Since UU for counter is too powerful but UU1 is too lame for a basic counter. Just thought what might be the right cost for a basic counter spell.
No, this card would not be fine. 2 life is an extremely negligible cost for a near-universal answer to most threats (short of Delver).
They probably won't print any super playable 2 cmc counter while Snapcaster Mage is still Standard Legal. The only thing I could see is Remove Soul/Essence Scatter/Rune Snag (POSSIBLY).
There is a reason Counterspell won't be reprinted, or any counter near that power level. They are highly non-interactive cards and the perception of a counter wall is basically super un-fun.
Obviously you seem to forget that this is an expansion and not a side product like FtV,Duel Decks,Planechase,ArchEnemey or Commander.Reprinting them is entirely out of the question.
I'll end this post with words of wisdom.......They aren't just going to reprint the Rav block and tack a few planeswalkers on and call it a new block.Don't let nostolgia and/or wishful thinking blind you.It beens about a day from the PAX announcment and alot of players seem to think like this already.The only ones you'll be able to blame when your ridiculous/high expectations aren't meet is yourself.
I'm not saying that they definitely will nor that they should. I am saying that based on the fact that the set is called Return to Ravnica, we can surmise that some cards from Ravnica are likely to be reprinted.
Since R&D for Return to Ravnica would have begun roughly 2 years ago, that coincides pretty directly with complaints about Extended becoming a stale format and perhaps the first discussions regarding what would become Modern.
Here I am speculating that of the small amount of cards reprinted, which are the most likely. Shocklands make the most sense. Yes, there is a vocal minority that will be upset about their investment being lost. Wizards has never catered exclusively to the vocal minority. They have always done what makes the most money, over the course of the long term. They have also stated that given what they know now, that they would rather the Restricted List not exist, suggesting that they believe that reprints should always be considered, regardless of secondary market prices (it makes sense from an economic stand point but I digress).
Everyone loves being able to cast their spells. Shocklands appeal to the vast majority of players, and even for those that don't like them initially, they eventually learn that using 2 life as a resource in order to have better mana is worth it. Shocklands are honestly an extremely elegant design and it seems a waste not to reuse them every 7-9 years or so. Moreover, increasing the supply allows Modern as a PTQ format to exist over the long term (contrast to Legacy which would basically be the worst PTQ format short of Vintage or Commander).
Why make new things that do what the old things do? MaRo (and I'm assuming the rest of R&D) thinks that design space is not unlimited. Given that spells like Lightning Helix and Putrefy are popular, effective and elegant designs, why try to reinvent the wheel? These uncommon removal spells have shown that they aren't oppressive in Standard, and if Extended ever picks up again it would be because the format became diversified, meaning that all colors (and color combinations) have to have powerful, useful spells.
Let's face it. Scars of Mirrodin had it's fair share of reprints, and many more cards that referenced original Mirrodin block. I'm not saying that RTR will be Ravnica with planeswalkers thrown in, nor do I want it to be. However, it seems incorrect to say that certain iconic cards (that still exist as examples of good design today) won't be reprinted, purely because RTR is an expansion and not a special product (for that matter, why is that even relevant - Scavenging Ooze is a great example of how Wizards is perfectly willing to print relevant cards in special products anyway. What format the product is for hardly matters).
Tl;DR I see no reason why Shocklands won't be reprinted, in fact all the evidence suggests they will either be reprinted in RTR OR M13.
I think we can safely logically assume that certain cards are very likely to be reprinted.
Ravnica shocklands are first on the list: Modern is a new format, they want to keep its cost of entry low (compared to legacy as an eternal format), so a reprint is likely. It has also been sometime since they have had that good of mana in Standard - the synergy with the Innistrad enemy duals is sweet for Standard, but not broken.
Lightning Helix, Faith's Fetters, Mortify, Putrefy are all good cards that were never broken and made Standard have a diverse set of answers to creatures across almost all colors. For similar reasons, we might see a Terminate reprint.
Spell Snare is a probably reprint. It is again, a non-broken super versatile counter spell. Mental-Mistep but not broken (you're always up mana, and 2 drops are very important - gives control a useful early counter spell). Remand is also another candidate (but much much smaller likelihood).
I do not think we'll get split card reprints, overall. I will admit that if they were to bring back Hit//Run and other multi-color split cards this would be the most logical block to do so.
Guildmages could see a reprint. They're aggressively costed bears with upside. In particular Selesnya Guildmage has huge synergy with token strategies in Standard.
Obviously Niv-Mizzet could see a reprint and I think Ghost Council is not out of the question. Both were arguably 2 of the most popular legends of their color pair, and both were strong but not broken (although either or both might see an upgrade).
Signets are the next most likely reprint, but I highly doubt it.
Of those, the most likely reprints are Niv-Mizzet and Ghost Council. Given the power level of creatures however, Ghost Coucil might get a slight upgrade (since the M10 combat damage change really nerfs him/it) and Niv-Mizzet might end up being a planeswalker, or just end up getting more powerful anyway.
Because oh you know, those decks won't suffer from set rotation about 3 months after M13 comes out, and then we'll just have to live with Stasis in Standard for 1.8 years instead....
Not sure if ignorant or just trolling.
Or you know, Circular Logic was just better?
Yeah they're not reprinting Hinder.
If you think that Memory Lapse at 3 cmc is a strictly worse version of Hinder you have not played with the card enough.
When you Memory Lapse something you are setting them back an entire draw. You know what is on top of their deck. You know it's not any number of other problematic cards.
Against a Ramp player you Memory Lapse a Rampant Growth and if they have a solid grasp on the game they will probably just ask you to show them the Snapcaster Mage and they'll scoop. They lose 2 draws, and you severely out tempo them at the same time? Yeah, good luck with that one.
On turns 2-4 (possibly more, depending on the opponent) Memory Lapse is very easily comparable to Time Walk (more so than Remand because they might not have land to play in their hand).
Seriously, Memory Lapse is the most deceptively oppressive card.
If say, a control player was willing to main deck 4 Timely Reinforcements, or a green player was willing to main deck 4 Great Sable Stag, or a Goblins/Merfolk/Elves player were willing to main deck 4 Aether Vials, should the Red/Faeries/Counter-top player NOT lose game 1?
This is all besides the fact that you can adapt pretty easily by just running less counters and running more spot removal/board control, which alot of Esper decks are moving towards anyway, relegating your counters to the sideboard for control mirrors.
And people who want to play Cavern of Souls and land creature after creature (of one type, mind you) can do that all they want as far as I'm concerned. I'll just Day of Judgement and get my 3/4/5-for-1 thank you very much.
If the game has progressed to the point where they can land Sun Titan with 4 Images, with Negate in hand....I can assume you have Sever the Bloodline, or Surgical Extraction, or Nihil Spellbomb...or something with Negate in hand as well?
UB control could main deck 4-6 counters but doesn't because counters are bad against Delver. Delver decks frequently have access to up to 8 counters out of the sideboard (mostly for Ramp decks).
You admit that there are answers to creatures, and then you give me a scenario in which you use creatures to present a board state that can be dealt with by one card, despite your opponent spending several turns to set it up as well as a number of cards, as well as commit more mana than you.
You admit that you'll adapt to the meta/cardpool (LIKE ANY CONTROL PLAYER SHOULD), but you're complaining/worrying that will be impossible - but as above you have clearly shown that you can adapt to creatures. I don't get it.
Is your point that you shouldn't have to adapt at all or that it's ridiculous that Control players have to adapt to hate cards? Do you have any idea how much Mono-Red players groaned when Timely Reinforcements was printed? I assure you that no matter how bad Cavern of Souls is for control decks, Timely Reinforcements is worse for Mono-Red (especially given the existence of Snapcaster Mage).
Seriously, it's not. The power of colors always ebbs and flows. The same is true of [effect] in general. Blue has been at a high point (generally speaking) since at least Worldwake - Mana Leak, Preordain, Jace v2 AND Jace v1. 2 years before that you had Faeries...2 years before that you had Mystical Teachings/Teferi-based control decks, 1 year before that you had Compulsive Research+Remand+Spell Snare (fueling decks like Solar Flare), 1 year before that you had Gifts Ungiven fuelled Control decks.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Blue has historically speaking, been the most powerful color at a competitive level compared to every other color. The only color to even come close is Black, mostly on the back of bah-roken cards like Dark Ritual, Necro, Yawg Will, Yawg Bargain, etc. A large part of that is because Blue had a huge slice of the color pie, a very powerful portion of which is counters, instant speed card draw and card selection.
To allow other colors to be competitive necessitates nerfing Blue to an extent. Don't worry. If Blue is too weak, it'll be brought back up. If it's too strong it'll be brought down low.
That list of creatures you just listed? The vast majority of them are dealt with fairly easily with some combination of the following: Day of Judgement, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, Go for the Throat, Black Sun's Zenith. The fact that I can name 4 cards, and between those 4 cards I can deal with any number of X creatures you care to name should illustrate the fact that creatures are pretty easy to interact with.
If it's a free counter, combo decks will just play it to force through the combo (see Hive Mind, Dream Halls, Splinter Twin, etc).
I think Wizards has by now see how powerful a mana-cost-free counter can be (despite a seemingly relevant draw back). I mean, look at Mental Misstep. Innocent looking, but the most format warping card from the set (short of perhaps, Dismember/Batterskull) in Standard.
I did not say that Titans were fun. Don't put words in my mouth. I am just saying that a counter wall is also not fun.
But even assuming that I said that, for most people dealing with creatures once they're on board is alot easier/more fun than dealing with a hand of say, 6 counters and a Snapcaster.
Ghost Quarter exists. Sweepers exist. Oblivion Ring exists. Dismember exists. There are many, many ways to deal with permanents. There are not nearly as many ways to deal with a counter wall, especially one that starts on turn 2, and when the premier Aggro deck of the format runs about as many counters as a control deck can (especially post-board).
If you want counters to be powerful, expect there to be equally powerful ways of preventing counters from being useful. R&D will always provide solutions if to threats...so I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
For the record, I also agree that Hexproof in general is a super unfun, non-interactive key word...but nonetheless my point still stands: permanents are much easier to interact with than instants or sorceries. There exists in every card type (real card types, not Tribal) ways to interact with creatures in one way or another. The only type that can interact with counters are counters/discard themselves (for the sake of this discussion I am discounting hate cards, since it is unrealistic for people to run hate cards main deck unless they would generally be useful anyway).
It also depends on how you define interactivity. Sure, on the surface you're interacting with your opponent, but the interaction is all one sided. Counters prevent your opponent from playing the game (certain in a casual environment, but also competitively. By now we've all been on the wrong side of a Delver nut-draw). Creatures generally do not unless they're the one that kills you (again, hexproof is a bulls*** key word, have no idea what they were thinking).
Board-Control decks are still control decks. A control deck does not necessarily mean the inclusion of counter spells. Counters just happen to be useful because they are typically universal, albeit reactive answers.
As for Combo decks, any legit combo decks that could currently exist are probably kept down because of the dominance of Delver, a deck that can exert a lot of pressure as well as disrupt the combo pieces. Frites is the closest thing to a combo deck that exists, and when it goes off it's pretty unfair - a fundamental problem with combo decks is that when they're running they tend to feel very unfun to play against (aka functionally unbeatable god draws - see Storm or Heartbeat for reference).
No, this card would not be fine. 2 life is an extremely negligible cost for a near-universal answer to most threats (short of Delver).
They probably won't print any super playable 2 cmc counter while Snapcaster Mage is still Standard Legal. The only thing I could see is Remove Soul/Essence Scatter/Rune Snag (POSSIBLY).
There is a reason Counterspell won't be reprinted, or any counter near that power level. They are highly non-interactive cards and the perception of a counter wall is basically super un-fun.
If she is extremely well received creatively (and possibly over multiple incarnations) possibly.
According to Maro, Kamigawa was unpopular mechanically and creatively.
I'm not saying that they definitely will nor that they should. I am saying that based on the fact that the set is called Return to Ravnica, we can surmise that some cards from Ravnica are likely to be reprinted.
Since R&D for Return to Ravnica would have begun roughly 2 years ago, that coincides pretty directly with complaints about Extended becoming a stale format and perhaps the first discussions regarding what would become Modern.
Here I am speculating that of the small amount of cards reprinted, which are the most likely. Shocklands make the most sense. Yes, there is a vocal minority that will be upset about their investment being lost. Wizards has never catered exclusively to the vocal minority. They have always done what makes the most money, over the course of the long term. They have also stated that given what they know now, that they would rather the Restricted List not exist, suggesting that they believe that reprints should always be considered, regardless of secondary market prices (it makes sense from an economic stand point but I digress).
Everyone loves being able to cast their spells. Shocklands appeal to the vast majority of players, and even for those that don't like them initially, they eventually learn that using 2 life as a resource in order to have better mana is worth it. Shocklands are honestly an extremely elegant design and it seems a waste not to reuse them every 7-9 years or so. Moreover, increasing the supply allows Modern as a PTQ format to exist over the long term (contrast to Legacy which would basically be the worst PTQ format short of Vintage or Commander).
Why make new things that do what the old things do? MaRo (and I'm assuming the rest of R&D) thinks that design space is not unlimited. Given that spells like Lightning Helix and Putrefy are popular, effective and elegant designs, why try to reinvent the wheel? These uncommon removal spells have shown that they aren't oppressive in Standard, and if Extended ever picks up again it would be because the format became diversified, meaning that all colors (and color combinations) have to have powerful, useful spells.
Let's face it. Scars of Mirrodin had it's fair share of reprints, and many more cards that referenced original Mirrodin block. I'm not saying that RTR will be Ravnica with planeswalkers thrown in, nor do I want it to be. However, it seems incorrect to say that certain iconic cards (that still exist as examples of good design today) won't be reprinted, purely because RTR is an expansion and not a special product (for that matter, why is that even relevant - Scavenging Ooze is a great example of how Wizards is perfectly willing to print relevant cards in special products anyway. What format the product is for hardly matters).
Tl;DR I see no reason why Shocklands won't be reprinted, in fact all the evidence suggests they will either be reprinted in RTR OR M13.
Ravnica shocklands are first on the list: Modern is a new format, they want to keep its cost of entry low (compared to legacy as an eternal format), so a reprint is likely. It has also been sometime since they have had that good of mana in Standard - the synergy with the Innistrad enemy duals is sweet for Standard, but not broken.
Lightning Helix, Faith's Fetters, Mortify, Putrefy are all good cards that were never broken and made Standard have a diverse set of answers to creatures across almost all colors. For similar reasons, we might see a Terminate reprint.
Spell Snare is a probably reprint. It is again, a non-broken super versatile counter spell. Mental-Mistep but not broken (you're always up mana, and 2 drops are very important - gives control a useful early counter spell). Remand is also another candidate (but much much smaller likelihood).
I do not think we'll get split card reprints, overall. I will admit that if they were to bring back Hit//Run and other multi-color split cards this would be the most logical block to do so.
Guildmages could see a reprint. They're aggressively costed bears with upside. In particular Selesnya Guildmage has huge synergy with token strategies in Standard.
Obviously Niv-Mizzet could see a reprint and I think Ghost Council is not out of the question. Both were arguably 2 of the most popular legends of their color pair, and both were strong but not broken (although either or both might see an upgrade).
Signets are the next most likely reprint, but I highly doubt it.
Of those, the most likely reprints are Niv-Mizzet and Ghost Council. Given the power level of creatures however, Ghost Coucil might get a slight upgrade (since the M10 combat damage change really nerfs him/it) and Niv-Mizzet might end up being a planeswalker, or just end up getting more powerful anyway.