Personally I’d play dragons because they’re impressive and flavourful, not for combo kills.
But your taste may differ.
If so, disregard my previous advice...
(-:
I always have a tough line to walk when I build decks, because I like to take advantage of synergies but I try to avoid infinite combos, and a lot of card synergies are like "well I could just change one card and win instantly so ehh". I know people love Scion but that's why I've never played it. Dragons themselves are tricky because yeah the base appeal is "look at this big flying creature" and I find that boring on its own.
I was actually thinking maybe some land search effects would be good for this deck, so I can get more Nesting Dragon triggers. I'm down to play Atarka; I'd rather play her in a different build but I guess she just ends the game no matter which Dragons you have in play huh.
Like what I really want too is a deck that plays Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage together but I could never figure out something that worked. Or maybe Kilnmouth Dragon but ditto that. The first archetype would probably have to be straight combo, and in that case why not just go Dragonstorm into 2x Savage Ventmaw and Hellkite Charger, which was basically done to death in 2007~ standard.
Obviously having a deck be all 4-ofs is super lame but the idea seems like fun--Play Nesting Dragon, play a fetch, first Dragon Egg targets itself with the Dragon Tempest trigger, crack the fetch, do the same with the second Dragon Egg, hit an opponent for 6 with the other Tempest triggers, attack for 10, etc. One thing that would be nice is to be able to get more Scourge of Valkas triggers (with recursion maybe? Idk). Are there any good dragons I should be playing in this? Anyone know any other good dragon archetypes?
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll definitely look into all those cards even though there are only a couple that do *exactly* what I'm looking for.
There aren't many options for UG creature based decks to counteract mass removal aside from counterspells, indestructible spells like Heroic Intervention and regeneration like Asceticism. Regeneration is a forte for green. This is kind of the reason why I expanded my elf tribal to a 5c elf tribal instead of sticking to UG, hard to bounce back after sweeps (mine is a sweep happy meta sighz).
But that said, UG does have some ways to help alleviate if not mitigate the effects of creature wipe a little. I'll keep it within the context of an Elf tribal since you are mainly an elf tribal deck I suppose?
There are some partner cards to Cauldron of Souls for Elves, which are in UG colors, mainly Master Biomancer and Ivy Lane Denizen. These will help negate the effects of having the -1/-1 counter when they return back to play from persist. Both cards are also good in a creature aggro setting since they buff creatures too.
To help mitigate the lack of creatures in a boardwipe setting, there are 2 cards I recommend. Evolutionary Leap is a good card to turn your dorks into other creatures when there is a board wipe in the early turns so you can bounce back faster. Caller of the Claw is an Elf which is really good to cast after a boardwipe, to use the bear tokens to maul that sweeper for revenge = =+.
Over in the blue side we have a really interesting spell to mitigate the damage, Paradoxical Outcome. It is easy to cast since it has only U in its mana, draws you more fuel while saving your precious elves that matter.
My meta isn't actually that sweeper happy, but when games take over an hour, a sweeper on turn 3 or 4 is like "welp, I know how this one is gonna go". (Not meaning to complain, mostly looking for answers)
Biomancer and Ivy Lane Denizen aren't really what I'm trying to do because I don't care much about the p/t of my creatures.
I found Evolutionary Leap when looking up Perilous Forays, and I like it a lot. Caller of the Claw (and Fresh Meat) is on my radar; I might add it for sweepers that are problematic late-game like Supreme Verdict.
If you're looking for direct reanimation ( and it isn't a land), in blue/green you aren't going to be lucky. That sort of ability is a white or black one. On the flip side, Green can recur absolutely anything. Since your strategy is to barf up a lot of mana dorks, have you given any consideration to damia, sage of stone as a good way to keep your hand topped up? Going black/blue/green also allows you to consider aluren combo as well as null profusion/recycle
I'm aware the ability is white or black, but Wizards has been known to make mistakes over the years :-). Like, I found Cauldron of Souls, but I play a lot of elves so that's not quite good enough.
I would prefer to keep my deck UG for the time being, but I'll keep Damia in mind if I ever end up switching. She seems like the most powerful option.
No combos is my self-imposed deckbuilding restriction. I already have fast instant-win combo decks, and those get boring. Then there's lockdown kinda stuff, which I know people in my playgroup would complain about if I have too much of it (they already complain my deck is too consistent).
1) Free or absurdly cheap counters like Pact of negation, force of will, and swan song.
2) cards that let you sac in response for profit like perilous forays and greater good.
3) or just play more combo.
I really like Swan Song; I have trouble leaving open UU early on but U would work. Perilous Forays looks worth a try too. Greater good's a strong card but in my deck I'll be drawing 1 and discarding 3 most of the time.
I built a casual deck around Momir Vig, Simic Visionary and usually it's a lot of fun. My gameplan is to sit there and make mana creatures until I can overrun everyone with Craterhoof Behemoth. The problem is that if someone plays a mass removal spell early on, I have a lot of trouble coming back from behind. Green recursion is slow and doesn't bring creatures directly back. Mystic Snake and other counterspells are good later on, but not early when I'm developing my mana. I'd be play more cards like Nature's Lore but I need to keep my creature count high for Momir. Ideally I'm looking for something like Twilight's Call or Return to the Ranks... just in blue or green... and on a creature... lol. Anyone know any cards like these? OR maybe there's a general I would like in UGW/UGB where I can build the same kind of deck?
If Death's Shadow and Infect are still tier 1 then sure. I haven't seen those decks yet after the ban though, even in SCG results.
I don't like siding in 3 of one card to get rid of something like Wurmcoil, where I could just be playing more burn and winning on my next untap step, or one untap step later with Skullcrack/Atarka's Command. Or they are trying to Karn me, and I'm sad I have a Path in hand. Kalitas is what, a one-of in Jund? If people are actually using Path against all those decks I'll try it, but just because it has a target doesn't mean it's good.
Hey guys I'm wondering how people feel about taking out Paths in the sideboard. I ask because I'm going to the team Modern grand prix in March, and one of my teammates might be on a Path to Exile deck. Seems like the most important matchup for it is the mirror, where I can't think of a good replacement. Other than that I feel like the deck is fine without it.
Okay I'm looking at your list in the original post, though I understand you may have changed some things. Also my sample size when playing this deck is pretty small, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
The Scion kill isn't very good in multiplayer since you can only kill one person. However, I do like the Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist kill because it's way easier to find if Hermit Druid gets exiled than the Pull from Eternity + Shallow Grave/etc combo (though you still play those cards). Plus you can play them all on the same turn for 3 mana and surprise your opponents. It adds a little redundancy and a couple creatures for Fauna Shaman/Survival of the Fittest.
I play Cromat as my general because Atogatog players are clearly up to no good and Scion can ring alarm bells, but yeah it doesn't matter that much.
Chrome Mox is certainly good, as are Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Lotus Petal. In multiplayer you are basically as all-in as possible. The longer the game goes on, the lower the chance you have of winning. I always assumed Mox Diamond was bad, but I've never played with it, so who knows.
I'm not sure what Anger is doing here. Same with Life from the Loam and Strip Mine--Strip Mine locking one player doesn't do very much, and there aren't any lands I can think of that shut off the combo.
I don't like the targeted discard effects in multiplayer since you don't always know where answers will come from. Have they worked for anyone? I'd rather play some blue cantrips, Misdirection, and Dispel. Sylvan Safekeeper can do a lot of work as well protection-wise.
Imperial Seal is extremely important because without it can you really say you're a baller? Same for Mana Crypt.
There is an important land that people tend to forget about: Gemstone Caverns. This card is reeeal good. It gives you turn 1 Hermit Druids (off of turn 0 tutors) and doesn't afraid of anything.
In 1v1 the list changes a lot. The list you have right now looks closer to being tuned for 1v1 honestly.
It's really too bad they're charging for their lists. I feel like they could do so much more to advance competitive commander by hosting tournaments, talking with the community, etc. But instead they put out a tier list with no explanation behind it, which is almost useless. It's funny because if competitive commander were more widespread, their lists (if they're any good) would be on the internet and they wouldn't make any money (assuming they're making any money now).
How Can Tier Lists Be Real If Our Decks Aren't Real?
I played against an interesting deck a month or so back that I haven't seen anything like before. He was using Atogatog as a general, just so he could play all five colors. His win condition was Exsanguinate, which he powered out by playing a ton of artifact mana and draw-sevens. Off the top of my head some of the cards he played were:
He said it could win pretty consistently on turn 4.
Does anyone else have experience with this kind of deck? It seems like there are a ton of good cards for the deck, but you'd have to construct it properly to not fizzle every game.
It costs another mana, but Somberwald Sage always generates 3 while Blood Tender only sometimes does. You really don't have that many mana sinks besides wolf run or leveling up. It seems like it might be a good fit for powering out your creatures consistently; the one color bit would help with Avatar in particular.
I had Somberwald Sage in here for a while. Finally I realized a couple things:
1. It's only really efficient if you have Serra Avatar in hand (though there used to be more big creatures in here).
2. Bloom Tender's much better with Joraga Treespeaker. Leveling up Treespeaker and then NOT casting a 4 or 5 drop on turn 3 was weird.
3. It's trying to do completely different things than the other 3-drops (Kitchen Finks, Woolly Thoctar, and Mayael's Aria) are.
However yeah, if it weren't for the Sage, I probably wouldn't have even tried the WWW cost on Serra Avatar. But I think the manabase can work without it.
Well if you've tried already, then you have real world experience. I just figured that it would work on about every one of your creatures minus Thoctar and you really don't have any non creatures besides Aria.
Have you thought about Primal Titan? I mean he finds your wolf runs for you. I am a big fan of Huntmaster of the Fells as well. I guess I like him better than Surrak, though it might because he does stuff when he comes into play rather than having to wait a turn and have a board state. It's hard for me to consider gruul colors without Bloodbraid elf as well--though judging from your signature, you've probably already tried it. Even if you only get ramp, its not a bad investment for a mere 4 mana. I guess getting a second Aria would be less than ideal though. BBE into Finks would be so much value. A really long time ago, a friend used Thornling and even if he's a bit behind the curve, I found that card to be a huge hassle. It was impossible to kill and the haste made it not a terrible drop toward the end of the game.
Don't tell anyone else, but my 'testing' is really just goldfishing on Cockatrice.
Primeval Titan would make probably any deck better. Finding Mosswort Bridge is kinda spicy, too. But I'm probably going to wait until I get an interesting idea to build a deck around it/acquire 4 of them.
Huntmaster probably warrants a slot, at least as a 1-of. Right now my Huntmasters are in a deck with my Bloodbraid Elfs, and I also play Violent Outburst to increase the odds of hitting Kavu Predator (combo with Skyshroud Cutter) or Punishing Fire off cascade. The main issue with these guys here is just maximizing the number of 5+ power creatures activate Aria.
It is possible I need other win cons, in which case I'd consider Thornling, but as it stands I don't think I'd have the mana to use it best.
I always have a tough line to walk when I build decks, because I like to take advantage of synergies but I try to avoid infinite combos, and a lot of card synergies are like "well I could just change one card and win instantly so ehh". I know people love Scion but that's why I've never played it. Dragons themselves are tricky because yeah the base appeal is "look at this big flying creature" and I find that boring on its own.
Like what I really want too is a deck that plays Knollspine Dragon and Dragon Mage together but I could never figure out something that worked. Or maybe Kilnmouth Dragon but ditto that. The first archetype would probably have to be straight combo, and in that case why not just go Dragonstorm into 2x Savage Ventmaw and Hellkite Charger, which was basically done to death in 2007~ standard.
Isn't there some kind of Scion combo that just ends the game? Like Moltensteel Dragon + Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon but better for multiplayer?
4 Nesting Dragon
4 Dragon Egg
4 Dragon Broodmother
4 Scourge of Valkas
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Dragonlord's Servant
4 Crucible of Fire
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Mutavault
9 Mountain
Obviously having a deck be all 4-ofs is super lame but the idea seems like fun--Play Nesting Dragon, play a fetch, first Dragon Egg targets itself with the Dragon Tempest trigger, crack the fetch, do the same with the second Dragon Egg, hit an opponent for 6 with the other Tempest triggers, attack for 10, etc. One thing that would be nice is to be able to get more Scourge of Valkas triggers (with recursion maybe? Idk). Are there any good dragons I should be playing in this? Anyone know any other good dragon archetypes?
Highlights:
Last Stand
Prismatic Omen
Glittering Wish
Collective Restraint
My meta isn't actually that sweeper happy, but when games take over an hour, a sweeper on turn 3 or 4 is like "welp, I know how this one is gonna go". (Not meaning to complain, mostly looking for answers)
I don't have any elf tribal synergies, but I'm considering it. I just mess around with Deadeye Navigator/Tradewind Rider + Eternal Witness/Mystic Snake/other CIP effect until I can win with Craterhoof.
Biomancer and Ivy Lane Denizen aren't really what I'm trying to do because I don't care much about the p/t of my creatures.
I found Evolutionary Leap when looking up Perilous Forays, and I like it a lot. Caller of the Claw (and Fresh Meat) is on my radar; I might add it for sweepers that are problematic late-game like Supreme Verdict.
I'm aware the ability is white or black, but Wizards has been known to make mistakes over the years :-). Like, I found Cauldron of Souls, but I play a lot of elves so that's not quite good enough.
I would prefer to keep my deck UG for the time being, but I'll keep Damia in mind if I ever end up switching. She seems like the most powerful option.
No combos is my self-imposed deckbuilding restriction. I already have fast instant-win combo decks, and those get boring. Then there's lockdown kinda stuff, which I know people in my playgroup would complain about if I have too much of it (they already complain my deck is too consistent).
I really like Swan Song; I have trouble leaving open UU early on but U would work. Perilous Forays looks worth a try too. Greater good's a strong card but in my deck I'll be drawing 1 and discarding 3 most of the time.
I don't like siding in 3 of one card to get rid of something like Wurmcoil, where I could just be playing more burn and winning on my next untap step, or one untap step later with Skullcrack/Atarka's Command. Or they are trying to Karn me, and I'm sad I have a Path in hand. Kalitas is what, a one-of in Jund? If people are actually using Path against all those decks I'll try it, but just because it has a target doesn't mean it's good.
Edit: actually it's marginal vs affinity too. I honestly can't think of another tier 1 deck that Path is good against.
The Scion kill isn't very good in multiplayer since you can only kill one person. However, I do like the Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist kill because it's way easier to find if Hermit Druid gets exiled than the Pull from Eternity + Shallow Grave/etc combo (though you still play those cards). Plus you can play them all on the same turn for 3 mana and surprise your opponents. It adds a little redundancy and a couple creatures for Fauna Shaman/Survival of the Fittest.
I play Cromat as my general because Atogatog players are clearly up to no good and Scion can ring alarm bells, but yeah it doesn't matter that much.
Chrome Mox is certainly good, as are Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Lotus Petal. In multiplayer you are basically as all-in as possible. The longer the game goes on, the lower the chance you have of winning. I always assumed Mox Diamond was bad, but I've never played with it, so who knows.
I'm not sure what Anger is doing here. Same with Life from the Loam and Strip Mine--Strip Mine locking one player doesn't do very much, and there aren't any lands I can think of that shut off the combo.
I don't like the targeted discard effects in multiplayer since you don't always know where answers will come from. Have they worked for anyone? I'd rather play some blue cantrips, Misdirection, and Dispel. Sylvan Safekeeper can do a lot of work as well protection-wise.
Silence is better than Orim's Chant.
Dimir Infiltrator is a tutor as well as a creature and a blue card.
I prefer the Angel of Glory's Rise/Laboratory Maniac/Azami, Lady of Scrolls combo package in this version because you can draw/pitch Azami and still win with Snapcaster Mage/Gitaxian Probe. The only reason this would change is if you expect people to play Stifle effects. I also play Dregscape Zombie so I can still win if I draw one of the unearth creatures in the first couple turns.
Imperial Seal is extremely important because without it can you really say you're a baller? Same for Mana Crypt.
There is an important land that people tend to forget about: Gemstone Caverns. This card is reeeal good. It gives you turn 1 Hermit Druids (off of turn 0 tutors) and doesn't afraid of anything.
In 1v1 the list changes a lot. The list you have right now looks closer to being tuned for 1v1 honestly.
How Can Tier Lists Be Real If Our Decks Aren't Real?
1 Timetwister
1 Gamble
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Vedalken Archmage
1 Skycloud Egg
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Windfall
Does anyone else have experience with this kind of deck? It seems like there are a ton of good cards for the deck, but you'd have to construct it properly to not fizzle every game.
Don't tell anyone else, but my 'testing' is really just goldfishing on Cockatrice.
Primeval Titan would make probably any deck better. Finding Mosswort Bridge is kinda spicy, too. But I'm probably going to wait until I get an interesting idea to build a deck around it/acquire 4 of them.
Huntmaster probably warrants a slot, at least as a 1-of. Right now my Huntmasters are in a deck with my Bloodbraid Elfs, and I also play Violent Outburst to increase the odds of hitting Kavu Predator (combo with Skyshroud Cutter) or Punishing Fire off cascade. The main issue with these guys here is just maximizing the number of 5+ power creatures activate Aria.
It is possible I need other win cons, in which case I'd consider Thornling, but as it stands I don't think I'd have the mana to use it best.