- x1uo3yd
- Registered User
-
Member for 8 years, 6 months, and 27 days
Last active Sat, Feb, 17 2024 13:19:35
- 0 Followers
- 263 Total Posts
- 101 Thanks
-
1
YesByGames posted a message on Death And TaxesWe've been waiting for you.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo -
3
2imu posted a message on Death And TaxesWhile there's a bit of discussion going on about BW E&T, I'll share something I wrote recently. I've also posted this on Reddit.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Although my writing in the past has generally focused on tournament reports, I figured it'd be a lot more useful to write something that pertains to general experience with BW E&T and my thoughts on how to play the deck.
BW Eldrazi & Taxes - Heuristics, Approaches, & Anecdotes
While specific decklists and sideboard guides are always helpful, I think it's valuable to spend some time thinking about how to approach games and matchups. This is my attempt at articulating those thoughts. Hopefully you find this worth reading! -
1
deathandcatmix posted a message on Death And TaxesHello DNT community!Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Ive been made aware of certain rules that are required to maintain the primer and forum here on mtgsalvation. I wasn’t aware and honestly, with adapting to parenthood, Ive slipped on my responsibilities here. I plan on letting go of the other forums on manage on this site and plan to exclusively put efforts in for you all here.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail. -
4
deathandcatmix posted a message on Death And TaxesHey y’all! It’s been awhilePosted in: Aggro & Tempo
I recently had a baby and was locked out of salvation and couldn’t dedicate time to get it resolved. I’m aware that there are broken links in the primer and I’ll plan on having a full fix after ban announcement and m19 spoiler season ends.
Holler,
Catmix -
3
thnkr posted a message on Death And TaxesHey everyone. Recently got interested in building this, and almost done. I've enjoyed playing it (proxied and on Cockatrice), but still working out the kinks in the deck. My preferred method for deckbuilding and tweaking is using data, which I've done with Lantern and Mono Blue Tron. I decided to use that same method with this deck as well, entering game data into this spreadsheet. I still need to find and enter a good amount more data to make sure that small sample sizes aren't skewing it too much. I do have functions included to account for sample size, but even then there is some skewing, as the functions can only do so much.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
With that mentioned, I figured I'd talk a bit about what I'm seeing so far.
As could be expected, cards that help cheat on mana (Aether Vial and Eldrazi Temple) seem to correlate with increased win percentages best. Following those we have Leonin Arbiter, Tidehollow Sculler, Thalia (baby), and Thought-Knot Seer, in that order. Again, which seems to make sense, as these cards are key to preventing the opponent from playing the game.
The last three that, so far, have a positive correlation are Shambling Vent, Rest in Peace, and basic Plains. I suppose Rest in Peace could be expected, as the decks that we bring that in against simply can not deal with it combined with the rest of our disruption. Shambling Vent's pretty good at being a source of "card advantage" in a deck with little to no card draw, while still ensuring that our manabase is good.
Next up are the cards that still correlate decent, but I have no data on them in multiples, so I can't stack them according to diminishing returns. I want to focus on the top five, as they are the ones that we would likely see most often, especially in the main. They are, in order, Godless Shrine, Fatal Push, Blade Splicer, Thoughtseize, and Swamp. Again, Godless Shrine should be decent because of the manabase I would imagine, as would Swamp. Fatal Push does a great imitation of Path, but without the downside of helping out opponents fight through our taxing effects when/if we don't have Arbiter in play. Blade Splicer, I would think, does well because it allows us to put a serious clock on the opponent, making our taxing effects actually mean a decent tempo advantage. It's also great with only one in the hand so long as we have enough blink effects between Displacer and Flickerwisp. Thoughtseize does a decent Sculler impression, just with the downside of not having a body to go with it. However, Thoughtseize does mean that the card is probably gone for good, rather until Sculler is destroyed, and is a decent turn one play.
Finally, we have the cards that have negative diminishing returns values. These are, from best to worst, Ghost Quarter, Flickerwisp, Caves of Koilos, Eldrazi Displacer, Wasteland Strangler, Path to Exile, and Concealed Courtyard. Each of these make sense to me, as they alone don't do much to slow down the opponent, especially in multiples. Ghost Quarter in multiples is strictly worse than a split of Quarter and Temple for our tempo, with the exception of us having an Arbiter survive to make them good plus the opponent not having the mana to pay for Arbiter and against opponents with zero basics. Flickerwisp isn't too terribly impressive in multiples, I would think, as it doesn't really do much to prevent the opponent from playing them game on their own. Eldrazi Displacer is great, of course, but once we have one that sticks, a second one doesn't do much for us that the first isn't already doing. The same can be said for Wasteland Strangler. Caves of Koilos and Concealed Courtyard seem to make sense as not being great in multiples, from the pain and multiple ETB lands when we want to have some combination of Temple, Quarter, and Vents as our early land drops (Vents early because it gets the ETB out of the way, so might as well make it one that always ETB). Path to Exile in multiples works great as ramp spells for our opponents in the early game, with the small side effect of thinning out our opponent's decks. Path seems to be much better late game, to help us turn the corner against faster, aggressive decks, without further speeding up their mana.
With all of that said, I think I'll be testing with cutting a Flickerwisp, Displacer, Strangler, and Path. In those spots, I plan on including cards that actively prevent the opponent from playing the game in the early stage. I know I want to keep my removal numbers high, but having removal that can be Vial'd in and synergizes better with us having more blink effects than Arbiter effects seems to make sense to me. Thus, I want to test with two Fairgrounds Wardens. I choose these over Banisher Priest because it's easier on the manabase, neutralize attacking Goblin Guides (and various other 2/x creatures) and doesn't die to Kolaghan's Command. I choose it over Fiend Hunter just because it's easier on a manabase in a deck with eight lands that don't tap for white and four painlands. My initial list didn't run Blade Splicers, but this would allow me to include two. Again, I don't want to see these in multiples, but they score well as singles.
Again, I should mention that more data could make these numbers are subject to changing as more data is entered, but that's going to take a while. I figure this gives me enough to work with at this point, with which I can test without spending money for GP entry fees and whatnot. At this stage, I care more about getting more data and tweaking than trying to place at events, with events being a long term goal.
EDIT: Got some games in, tweaking a bit more. I'm not including my own games onto the spreadsheet because I'm definitely no expert on the deck yet, so I don't want any poor plays from me messing up the data. Was also able to add more data to the sheet. The following is the list that I have so far:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards // 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
// 28 Creature
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Flickerwisp
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Wasteland Strangler
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Blade Splicer
1 Fairgrounds Warden
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar// 5 Instant
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
// 23 Land
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Shambling Vent// 15 Sideboard
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Settle the Wreckage
3 Fatal Push
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I'm still not quite sure on some of the numbers. I tried cutting down to three Path and one Push for a few games, but found that Push has the serious problem of being too situational, and requires setting up the revolt trigger most times, which is sometimes just too much to ask from the deck. Thus, I made room for a Dismember. I figure if it works for decks like Tron, it should work for us. I'm inclined to think that my list will require further tweaking as I collect more data, but that's going to be slow going (I'll be leaving to restricted internet area here soon, so it will be more difficult to add data to the Google Sheets).
One thing for certain is that using the data as a mulligan tool has certainly helped me. It's definitely helped me figure out what hands are good and which are not. Using it to tweak will likely require a good deal more data to increase reliable numbers, though. -
1
grayson290 posted a message on Death And TaxesHey everyone so I played a modern 1k today with mono white death and taxes and I topped 8! I lost to hollow one in the finals but it was fun and I was glad I could represent d&t.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo -
1
CharonsObol posted a message on Death And TaxesPosted in: Aggro & Tempo
It's possible that I coined the term, although I wasn't the first person to come up with the idea.Quote from x1uo3yd »
There's an idea bounced around this thread that we call the "The Mangara Problem" (which I believe CharonsObal coined).Quote from roguetacticss »3) Mangara of corondor x2 main board not many shells run him at all why is that? (i know the combo is not as good as the legacy version but man this combo has closed out games for me so far and is fairly unexpected when you attack their manabase. The availability of 2 eldrazi displacers and 4 flicker/4 angels is pretty good.)
Basically, the card can do some great tricks and run away with games if you're well positioned and/or a little lucky, however there are far too many instances where your opponent will simply target removal at the guy before he gets to generate any value (beyond the 1-for-1 value as a removal-magnet).
@roguetacticss: "The Mangara Problem" is shorthand for a combination of two things: (1) it doesn't impact the board when it enters the battlefield and (2) it readily gets removed at a tempo loss. It isn't just that Mangara dies to removal (because our whole deck dies to removal); the real problem is that Mangara costs you 1 card and 3 mana worth of tempo, only to be removed by a Lightning Bolt for 1 card and 1 mana (at a 2 mana tempo loss). All of the relevant removal cards in Modern are capable of removing Mangara for value because they all cost 2 CMC or less and they all kill Mangara (as opposed to something like Restoration Angel, which may cost 4 mana, but it doesn't die to things like Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command). Sure, if Mangara ever stayed on the battlefield, it could generate a lot of value, but no experienced opponent will ever let you keep it. Hence, the Mangara problem - in theory, it looks like it could be good in our deck, but in practice it isn't.
@roguetacticss: x1uo3yd hit the nail on the head.Quote from x1uo3yd »
Fiend Hunter is a bit different because (although he can't steal a game as strongly as a multi-recycled Mangara) it is flexible enough to generally a better card even when we don't get to pull off the double-exile trick with it. Fiend Hunter can slow the bleeding by temporarily holding a Goyf in exile, it can facilitate combat tricks by removing attackers/blockers, and a 1/3 isn't a completely useless fighter on the battlefield compared to Mangara being a 1/1.Quote from roguetacticss »What about fiend hunter combo is it the same idea?
Long story short, the ceiling is higher on Mangara (compared to Fiend Hunter) but the floor is also much lower.
Fiend Hunter almost looks like Mangara, except it has an immediate impact on the boardstate and it has a higher toughness, which pushes it out of the range of some burn spells (like Kolaghan's Command). Fiend Hunter's downside is that it can cause blowouts during your attack phase because if your opponent can remove it at instant speed, then he or she will get back a presumably relevant blocker. But the fact that Fiend Hunter generates value immediately is a large part of what makes it playable relative to Mangara. -
2
knto posted a message on Death And Taxesto reiterate what x1uo3yd said mono white is where I would start. Here is the typical shellPosted in: Aggro & Tempo
MonoW D&T skeletonMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile4 Ghost Quarter
You can increase the number of these cads but I would advise against decreasing them. Beyond that it comes down to preference and meta, but the lists that perform tipically have 4 Thraben Inspector and some mixture of Eldrazi Displacer,Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Mirran Crusader, Selfless Spirit, and Smuggler's Copter. The SB is the hardest part as they can differ vastly depending on the meta. I would start with a sb like the deck x1uo3yd linked. Generally you want 3+ cards for afinity, 2+ for storm, 2-4 graveyard hate, 2+ for elves and other creature based aggro decks, as well as a plethora of soft sb cards that are good in multiple matchups. Sometimes you want to side out all of your leonin arbiters, or 2 of you thalia's so it's nice to have flexible sb cards. If you are sure about the meta you can stock up on multiples cards like this list. I tend to avoid sb's like this because of all the random decks in my meta. -
1
CharonsObol posted a message on Death And TaxesPosted in: Aggro & Tempo
With respect to 23 lands being optimal for this deck, your mileage may vary. I have mathematical evidence (i.e., probabilistic evidence) to suggest that 22 or 21 lands would be better, but this depends a lot on your utility land suite, your appetite for mana screw, and your creature curve.Quote from Chalupacabra »This is distilled from years of trial and error and literally hundreds of posts by players on this thread, just like the generally accepted belief that 23 lands is optimal in this deck.
In general, if you: (1) plan on sacrificing a lot of lands throughout the course of a game, (2) have an aversion to losing to your own manabase, or (3) have a 3-drop or 4-drop heavy curve, then you should probably increase your land count to whatever makes you feel the most comfortable. I've seen successful lists with 23 and 24 lands, but I'm no longer surprised by the decks running 21 either.
With respect to the skewing your creature curve to sit on a particular number, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The creature curve moves around to reflect what it takes to be competitive in the current metagame. Sometimes we have to be aggressive (i.e., have more 1-drops and 2-drops that apply pressure) and sometimes we have to be more controlling (i.e., have more 3-drops and 4-drops that generate value). Historically, Vial always went up to 3 because Flickerwisp is one of the most busted instant-speed interactions in our deck. So to your point, it does make some intuitive sense to run other 3 CMC cards because they can come in at instant speed while you're holding a Flickerwisp in your hand. However, when the metagame is fast, we have to adjust to it. In a fast metagame, Vial becomes a card that generates a tempo advantage (i.e., we get to cheat on mana) rather than a value engine (i.e., we're doing tricks with the stack), and we all saw the list from GP Vancouver that cut the Vials for Windbrisk Heights.
There isn't one right way to use Vial, but there are a lot of wrong ways to use it. If you're letting Vial dictate the kind of creature curve that you have, then it's going to be an uphill battle in the 60% of games when you don't have it in your opening hand (and especially so in a fast metagame). I do think your point is valid, but I don't think its universally applicable. This applies to every deck, but you really have to know what role that each card in your list is playing and adjust your plan accordingly.
As a person who has played a lot of D&T lists with Voice of Resurgence, I can tell you that Serra Sentinel is not very good. Requiring it to die during combat is a major strike against it, because most decks fall into one of the following categories: (1) they will be happy to take 2 damage per turn while they combo out, (2) they would be happy to race your 2/2 because they're an aggro deck, or (3) they run enough creature removal that they will destroy your creature not during combat. In essence, this card has the Grand Abolisher problem; your opponents will just play around it. I see the same thing when I play Voice of Resurgence; if my opponents can avoid it, then they don't want to give me the elemental token. I like the design of Serra Sentinel, but I don't think it's as powerful as you think it is.Quote from Ashiok »Regarding the card itself - if it wasjust a 2/2 'unblockable' or a fragile wall I wouldn't think it is a good card. It is the fact that Serra Sentinel is both of these things at the same time that makes me wanna consider and test it. -
1
Torpf posted a message on Modern Four HorsemenPosted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
Here are four lists I've been toying around with for the last few months.Quote from x1uo3yd »Any ideas on how to abuse Whir of Invention in the Shaku lists? Lantern uses it to great effect in putting together their winning boardstate while shaving the numbers of cards they rarely want in multiples.
Leyline-Shaku Four Horsemen v1Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Combo
2 Narcomoeba
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Increasing Confusion
Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
4 Chart a Course
4 Fabricate
Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
2 Mind Stone
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
4 Serum PowderLands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Gemstone Caverns
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Flooded Strand
6 IslandSideboard
4 Swan Song
4 Echoing Truth
3 Spellskite
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Leyline-Shaku Four Horsemen v2Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Combo
2 Narcomoeba
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Increasing Confusion
Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
3 Chart a Course
2 Whir of Invention
1 Fabricate
Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
4 Serum PowderLands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Gemstone Caverns
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Flooded Strand
5 IslandSideboard
4 Swan Song
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spellskite
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline-Shaku Four Horsemen v4Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Combo
2 Narcomoeba
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
4 Leyline of Singularity
1 Increasing Confusion
Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Whir of Invention
Artifacts
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
4 Serum PowderLands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Gemstone Caverns
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Misty Rainforest
5 IslandSideboard
4 Swan Song
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spellskite
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Leyline of Sanctity
My impressions of Whir of Invention is that it is either great, or stuck in your hand. Lantern is able to dump all of it's 1 and 0 mana artifacts to power out a Whir. Out cards cost 2 and 3 so they come out much slower, meaning Whir is much slower. The other probelm is that we play lots of colourless lands to hit lots of legendary ones, and Darksteel Citadel to ensure Metalcraft for Mox Opal. You can see my thought process in those four lists, so maybe there is something I'm missing. If you have any ideas I'd be happy to hear. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1
I ask because "4-lands out, but can't cast Smasher" is a situation that could happen even if those Silent Clearings were Concealed Courtyards. Having more options isn't a bad thing (unless you're driving yourself insane).
That said, if you found you were cracking lands faster than normal in a typical game, and thus reaching 4cmc-5cmc is a couple turns slower in any given game, that's a different story. Going from ~4xGQ being the only consumable lands up to 7x-8x between GQ and SC might actually be a significant increase.
Basically, I'm wondering if it's a playstyle thing, where you have to sandbag a bit more (instead of cycling) when you've sided in Smashers.
1
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
1
1
Militia Bugler Math
GoogleDoc: Here
Hey All! I know how much you nerds love seeing some data on the thread...
...So here's a hit-percentage table I made for everyone's favorite new card: Militia Bugler. Take a look, leave a like, and DM me here on mtgSalvation if you find any mistakes or have any ideas for improvements.
1
I haven't heard of anyone using Muse despite it's less white-strict mana cost (I assume because it's a 4cmc "dies to Bolt" creature). The new creature you mention is at least Bolt proof so there's a chance it might get tested, but the Angel is probably still better due to evasion and the blockers-tax effect (unless there's a new way to bank on some sort of humans, soldiers, or legends tribal synergy).
2
Fiend Hunter is a bit different because (although he can't steal a game as strongly as a multi-recycled Mangara) it is flexible enough to generally a better card even when we don't get to pull off the double-exile trick with it. Fiend Hunter can slow the bleeding by temporarily holding a Goyf in exile, it can facilitate combat tricks by removing attackers/blockers, and a 1/3 isn't a completely useless fighter on the battlefield compared to Mangara being a 1/1.
Long story short, the ceiling is higher on Mangara (compared to Fiend Hunter) but the floor is also much lower.
1
Basically, the card can do some great tricks and run away with games if you're well positioned and/or a little lucky, however there are far too many instances where your opponent will simply target removal at the guy before he gets to generate any value (beyond the 1-for-1 value as a removal-magnet).
Your list (with 4xWisp, 2xDisp, and 4xResto) definitely has enough flicker effects to minimize your chance of drawing Mangara without lining up a flicker trick, but most people still don't run the guy because removal is so prevalent in most metas.
Fingers definitely crossed on a Karakas reprint in DOM, though. Or hopefully at least a nerfed "target legendary creature you control" version.
1
Welcome to the forum. Picking up a stock 5-0 list (with maybe a budget replacement or two) to start playing is good advice. I think consensus in this forum is that a classic style Monowhite build is an especially great place to learn the ins and outs of the deck (though BW Eldrazi is a fine deck too if you already own those cards).
For Monowhite, Justin Prigel's recent decklist is a good stock list to start with. If you're on a bit of a budget you can definitely replace Horizon Canopy with Shefet Dunes and basic Plains without changing the feel of the deck. However, if you're on an extreme budget and can't afford some combination of Thalia/Path/Vial then it'll be very hard for us to give sound advice on a starter list.
Good luck and happy taxing.
1
1
Green-White is a pretty solid D&T variant, especially historically (pre-OGW the highest level wins for D&T were basically split evenly between Monowhite and GW).
Most people do not start there, however, because it does cost significantly more to get started on account of the Nobles (and Canopies), but if you already have those cards (or already have the funds set aside) then it's not that big of a dealbreaker.