I think the comparison is fine. Those cards cost less than their effect would suggest. Why do they get a pass and balance doesn't?
We should probably ban Wrath of God as well, since it promotes decks with less creatures. If someone wants to build a deck with lots of walkers, enchantments, and artifacts, I don't see the problem.
If most decks run planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments, then you're going to have a hard time playing more of them than three opponents. If you're jumping through hoops to discard everyone's hands, then you're just playing a worse Sire of Insanity. If people don't like Smallpox, why is that legal and Balance isn't? Do you think Smallpox should be banned like Balance?
Sin Prodder is really hurt by having the damage based on cmc. In red aggro decks the damage is going to be about 1.2-1.5 a turn on average. Combined with the mediocre body, no deck is really looking to play it.
I'm not sure why you are describing it as being contemptuous, but I disagree about it being easy. To have your balance be asymmetrical you need to play more artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers while having a smaller hand size, less lands, and less creatures. I don't think most casuals decks are anywhere close to being tuned enough to take advantage of balance being in their opening hand. If they are casting this spell late game, then they have enough mana to cast some other spell that is more impactful.
About Balance doing too much for too little mana, you could say the same for multiple cards in the format. Sometimes design does a bad job costing a card, pushes the card, or it gets much better in this format. Are these cards going to be banned soon?
Yeah, if Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault weren't in the format, I would of been advocating for Balance to be unbanned much sooner. However, my opinion on this has recently changed. If the banlist is constructed with casual metas in mind, then Balance has no business being banned. Casuals aren't going to break Balance early game. There are more powerful cards that can be played late game. The card isn't as oppressive as other legal cards in the format. The card isn't going to be played in every white deck. The card doesn't interact poorly with commander, it doesn't produce too much mana, and it's very cheap to buy.
I don't think it usually creates that massive of a resource imbalance, especially early game. If people are using it for early game hand disruption, I've never seen a casual player empty their hand before turn four with mana rocks. If they're using it later on as land destruction, then they're playing a worse Armageddon. It isn't even a card that locks people out of the game. It's a one shot effect that equalizes most resources between the players.
Balance doesn't fit into every white deck. Most WG decks are trying to build a board of creatures and ramp out more lands than their opponents. A WR deck might play it if they're voltron, but not if they're following a go-wide strategy.
I wouldn't say it doesn't add anything to the format. Casuals don't like mass land destruction, but this card allows them to punish land ramp decks without destroying all the lands with Armageddon. More competitive players wouldn't mind balance because it's nowhere near powerful enough to break their meta.
How are the game states undesirable? Balance is a one shot effect that equalizes different resources between the players. Most casual players I have met would rather deal with a balance than a stax card like Winter Orb. Does it do too much for its mana cost? Yeah, but that isn't a rule. A lot of other cards that are legal in this format are competitively costed as well.
Are you saying this as an opinion based on your own experiences and discussions, or are you just speculating? Because I have never come across a casual player running Balancing Act, Restore Balance, Magus of the Balance, or lamenting that they couldn't run Balance. In fact, pretty much everyone I've played it against hasn't been thrilled to get Balancing Act cast on them while I have a small board state.
Experience and discussion. Casuals that I have interacted with have overwhelmingly hated stax effects. While I haven't heard casuals complain about not being able to to run balance, they have complained about land ramp decks. Casuals don't want to turn into the stax player, but they want a way to fight back against someone that has ramped a lot.
Did those players concede on the spot to you casting Balancing Act, or were they just disappointed that you made a good play that hurt them? It's not too uncommon for players around my county to concede and refuse to play with someone once that persons casts armageddon or locks down a board with stasis or winter orb.
Balance is about as fair and balanced as Fox News. I don't agree with making it one of the first cards I would ban, but it doesn't add anything to the format. There are plenty of legal variants available.
I wouldn't say it doesn't add anything to the format. Casuals don't like mass land destruction, but this card allows them to punish land ramp decks without destroying all the lands with Armageddon. More competitive players wouldn't mind balance because it's nowhere near powerful enough to break their meta.
So, is Balance ever going to be unbanned? It doesn't seem to be breaking any of the rules in the philosophy document.
In fact, it breaks many of them in one way or another. It produces far too much effect for minimal investment, and does so in a manner which contributes to undesirable game states. I agree with Sheldon that Balance is pretty much the last card that should ever leave the banned list. At best it's tied for last with one or two other things.
How are the game states undesirable? Balance is a one shot effect that equalizes different resources between the players. Most casual players I have met would rather deal with a balance than a stax card like Winter Orb. Does it do too much for its mana cost? Yeah, but that isn't a rule. A lot of other cards that are legal in this format are competitively costed as well.
Thanks for the suggestions. I think he wants to kill people faster, but I have doubts about this type of deck keeping pace with combo in this format.
I didn’t want to include Tymna the Weaver because this deck doesn’t want to attack one of the players. About Doom Whisperer, I think the beaters should have a bit more utility than pseudo scrying. I would be a bit more optimistic if this deck used the graveyard more. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is powerful, but this list isn’t very creature heavy.
I was thinking about running Insult // Injury but decided Gisela, Blade of Goldnight would be better since I would have more mana on the turn I wanted to play a card like that.
I noticed that you have Rule of Law and Eidolon of Rhetoric for your list. How important are these effects? Does it make fighting control harder?
Hello, a friend of mine asked me to help him make his multiplayer Saskia the Unyielding deck more competitive. The problem is that I only play duel commander competitively and multiplayer casually. I would appreciate it if anyone here could help me with the list I'm working on.
Burst Lightning has been good. I would give more thought to Settle the Wreckage, but playing against tier 1 control commanders has been where I've really struggled lately.
We should probably ban Wrath of God as well, since it promotes decks with less creatures. If someone wants to build a deck with lots of walkers, enchantments, and artifacts, I don't see the problem.
If most decks run planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments, then you're going to have a hard time playing more of them than three opponents. If you're jumping through hoops to discard everyone's hands, then you're just playing a worse Sire of Insanity. If people don't like Smallpox, why is that legal and Balance isn't? Do you think Smallpox should be banned like Balance?
About Balance doing too much for too little mana, you could say the same for multiple cards in the format. Sometimes design does a bad job costing a card, pushes the card, or it gets much better in this format. Are these cards going to be banned soon?
0 Mishra's Workshop
0 Burgeoning
0 Deathrite Shaman
0 Entomb
0 Mana Vault
0 Mother of Runes
0 Imperial Seal
0 Sol Ring
0 Skullclamp
0 Vampiric Tutor
0 Mana Drain
0 Survival of the Fittest
0 Sylvan Library
0 Necropotence
0 Rhystic Study
0 Timetwister
0 Yawgmoth's Will
0 Force of Will
Balance doesn't fit into every white deck. Most WG decks are trying to build a board of creatures and ramp out more lands than their opponents. A WR deck might play it if they're voltron, but not if they're following a go-wide strategy.
Experience and discussion. Casuals that I have interacted with have overwhelmingly hated stax effects. While I haven't heard casuals complain about not being able to to run balance, they have complained about land ramp decks. Casuals don't want to turn into the stax player, but they want a way to fight back against someone that has ramped a lot.
Did those players concede on the spot to you casting Balancing Act, or were they just disappointed that you made a good play that hurt them? It's not too uncommon for players around my county to concede and refuse to play with someone once that persons casts armageddon or locks down a board with stasis or winter orb.
I wouldn't say it doesn't add anything to the format. Casuals don't like mass land destruction, but this card allows them to punish land ramp decks without destroying all the lands with Armageddon. More competitive players wouldn't mind balance because it's nowhere near powerful enough to break their meta.
How are the game states undesirable? Balance is a one shot effect that equalizes different resources between the players. Most casual players I have met would rather deal with a balance than a stax card like Winter Orb. Does it do too much for its mana cost? Yeah, but that isn't a rule. A lot of other cards that are legal in this format are competitively costed as well.
I didn’t want to include Tymna the Weaver because this deck doesn’t want to attack one of the players. About Doom Whisperer, I think the beaters should have a bit more utility than pseudo scrying. I would be a bit more optimistic if this deck used the graveyard more. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is powerful, but this list isn’t very creature heavy.
I was thinking about running Insult // Injury but decided Gisela, Blade of Goldnight would be better since I would have more mana on the turn I wanted to play a card like that.
I noticed that you have Rule of Law and Eidolon of Rhetoric for your list. How important are these effects? Does it make fighting control harder?
I made these changes.
- Warden of the First Tree
- Merciless Eviction
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Sorin, Solemn Visitor
- Crucible of Worlds
- Stolen Strategy
- Utility Lands
+ Better fixing
+ Fire Covenant
+ Rest in Peace
+ Tymna the Weaver
+ Pithing Needle
+ Natural State
+ Tribute to the Wild
4 Saskia the Unyielding
Beat Creatures (4)
1 Serra Ascendant
5 Tendershoot Dryad
7 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Board Wipes (3)
3 Fire Covenant
3 Toxic Deluge
9 Blasphemous Act
Tutors (4)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
Card Advantage (8)
1 Keen Sense
2 Sylvan Library
3 Painful Truths
3 Snake Umbra
3 Tymna the Weaver
3 Runic Armasaur
4 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Queen Marchesa
Disruption (21)
1 Dismember
1 Natural State
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vandalblast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Tribute to the Wild
3 Anguished Unmaking
3 Aura Shards
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Beast Within
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Pir's Whim
4 Stranglehold
6 Sire of Insanity
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
5 Nissa, Vital Force
Voltron (3)
1 Mother of Runes
2 Conqueror's Flail
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
Mana Ramp (14)
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Mana Crypt
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Bloom Tender
2 Boros Signet
2 Fellwar Stone
2 Golgari Signet
2 Gruul Signet
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Selesnya Signet
Fetchable Lands (20)
0 Badlands
0 Bayou
0 Plateau
0 Savannah
0 Scrubland
0 Taiga
0 Blood Crypt
0 Godless Shrine
0 Overgrown Tomb
0 Sacred Foundry
0 Stomping Ground
0 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Swamp
0 Arid Mesa
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Flooded Strand
0 Marsh Flats
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Windswept Heath
0 Wooded Foothills
Multicolor lands (7)
0 City of Brass
0 Command Tower
0 Exotic Orchard
0 Gemstone Caverns
0 Mana Confluence
0 Path of Ancestry
0 Tarnished Citadel
Wirewood Lodge
Great Oak Guardian
Oblivion Sower
Yisan, The Wanderer Bard
Phyrexian Soulgorger
Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar
Elvish Archdruid
Prowling Serpopard
Courser of Kruphix
World Breaker
Summoning Trap
Eldritch Evolution
Fierce Empath
Traverse The Ulvenwald
Elvish Spirit Guide
Heroes' Bane