I do too. If they print a really good proliferate card, then I can see it being really strong. As it stands, this could be a suitable replacement for something like Oblivion Ring. I will definitely be testing it out. A cheaper Icy Manipulator definitely has potential, even if it doesn't pan out in practice.
At the moment - no one played a ton of various cards until they became good answers for individual decks, that's the nature of the game - I wasn't claiming either flourished right this minute.
And dropping her to 2 against a RDW style deck is just asking to lose her unless you're presuming you've already got LoSancity already out. (Which is even more presumptuous that assuming your aggro opponent sits on his hands between T4 and T5)
(Not to mention, who the hell would wrath a RDW deck anyhow regularly? 2/3 of their critters suicide themselves before it's even your turn)
Additionally if Elspeth + DoJ becomes too much of a concern for aggro with minimal ramping they can easily drop a Monument and turn DoJ into wasted cardboard and Elspeth close to wasted cardboard status (depending if they've got trample/evasion for how close).
She's good, and it puts you in a good position - but it's hyperbolic and over-the-top to claim she's instant win in that case.
These are all examples of RDW. If we're talking about RDW, then I agree with you, that elspeth is bad and probably gets sided out along with Day against most RDW lists. Well, at least old Elspeth wasn't good against them. This one might be better because of the lifegain. I thought we were talking about aggro in general, which includes stuff like Naya, Vengevine decks, etc. In that case, Elspeth is a complete beating.
Eldrazi Monument is a good answer to Day of Judgment, but Day of Judgment is still a good card against those decks, because if you can play it before the monument, it makes the monument a dead card. It can be a race at that point to who can play it first, unless the UW player has a counterspell.
Whoever said she was good in U/W control, are u serious? Youd like to blow up your own JtMS/Gideon/BSAngel? She's terrible in Control, lol. Thats fine though, aggro decks could use a bit more narrow Planeswalker, and a token aggro deck would be cool for her.
If you have those cards out, you're winning the game, and obviously you don't use her ultimate. Do you play Day of Judgment in UW control? Why? It kills your wall of omens and BSA. Day must be terrible in control...
Unlike Day, Elspeth still does something relevant even when you don't want to wrath the board... Elspeth is actually really, really good if you have a BSA, Jace, or Gideon on the board. She protects your other walkers better than old Elspeth did.
Most of the arguments against Elspeth are because she's worse when you're already winning, and some of her abilities are only relevant when you're losing. That's exactly what a control deck WANTS. Win-more cards are useless (I think Venser might turn out to be a win-more card), but cards that become increasingly better the worse the situation looks for you are the best cards to run.
I can't wait to beat people with the card that's bad in UW control :). I also love how both Elspeth's are good at killing other planeswalkers. Apparently Elspeth doesn't like to play nice with her friends.
You're disagreeing with me over nothing - I like her a ton, I just think that example the person gave of T4 DoJ, T5 3 tokens as a "automatic win against aggro, really what do they do?" was ridiculous.
It's really not that ridiculous. Those two cards don't obviously win against aggro by themselves, but playing a DoJ to clear the board and then laying down numerous chump blockers on a card that's going to just generate more and more if untouched (while gaining you life) is extremely tough for aggro to beat. It buys the control deck so much time to establish complete control of the game. Really, unless the control deck draws nothing but land for the rest of the game (and even then...colonnade beats?), that series of plays is going to win 90% of the time against an aggro list. You can bolt the Elspeth, but then you still have to get through the 3 tokens, which is going to take 2-3 turns to do. In that time, the control deck can play any number of assorted other cards that stomp aggro (Gideon, Baneslayer) and finish the game.
Your counterexamples were really what was the most ridiculous thing. Nobody plays pyroclasm in the same deck as goblin guide. And hypothetically, if you had it in your SB, you wouldn't bring it in against UW anyway. Nobody plays Shrivel period. Earthquake would get the job done for clearing the board and killing Elspeth at the same time, but that card is rotating out. Really, there's no way for an aggro deck to deal with that other than 2 for 1'ing themselves (burn elspeth, creature to plow through the tokens), and since the DoJ was likely a 2+ for 1 as well, it's very likely just game over at that point.
At any rate, UW has always slaughtered traditional aggro anyway (Naya, RDW, etc.). Elspeth is just another tool in the shed there, and Gideon is probably better there anyway.
People are complaining about UW, but I don't see anything that pushes it over the edge or makes it particularly better than it is now. Venser and Elspeth are both competing with Gideon and Baneslayer for the 5 mana slot. There are only so many 5 mana cards that can be run, especially in a format where people are playing Primeval Titan on turn 4. I think this Elspeth is better for control than the original Elspeth in a vacuum, but I think she's worse when you consider most of the other cards vying to be played around it all also cost 5 mana. With that being said, I think new Elspeth's abilities are being underrated. Have people actually played aggro decks against Elspeth before? Even 1 token a turn made life a living hell for ground-based attackers because the damage Elspeth was soaking up provided such a huge buffer for the control player's life total and protected the walkers. The fact that Elspeth also kills the rest of your planeswalkers is pretty much a moot point. If you have the rest of your walkers on the board as well, then you probably don't need to use that ability. And if you do, you can either not play your planeswalkers until you use it, or you can be thankful that you have a reset button when you were going to otherwise lose, even if it puts your Jace into the bin.
As for the Mox: That card is about as utility as they come. Are lands utility cards? Yeah, of course. Does this card perform the function of a land (accelerating, fixing mana)? Yeah, of course. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is, how easy or difficult it is to play, or whether or not it has an 'iconic' word in the title like Mox, it's still Utility. This card doesn't actively do anything other than allow your other cards to more effectively do things. If that's not utility, then what is? I don't really care whether the card is named The Blackest Mox Lotus or not, it's still utility and shouldn't be Mythic. No surprises that Wizards isn't keeping their promises, though. And for this card, I don't particularly care, because I don't see myself playing it in any formats, I'm just sad about the hypothetical future situation when a card I do care about is incorrectly made a Mythic Rare.
This is my favorite card of the set so far. People don't realize how good this card is. It completely shuts down the most powerful planeswalker in standard right now (Elspeth), and as someone who played the hell out of mouth of ronom back in the day, the ability for an extra land lategame to turn into something relevant is so unbelievably key for a control deck it's unreal. Also, this card when active turns what is arguably the most explosive deck in standard right now (Mythic) into a bad aggro deck as well as severely weakens NLB's most powerful strategy of beating you down with flying 7/6 or greater Vengevines.
Sure, this is bad against Siege-Gang Commander or the Titans, but that's what the rest of the removal in your deck is for. This card is to handle the Putrid Leeches, Baneslayer Angels, Raging Ravines, Vengevines, without having to use a card.
This is a control players dream card here. Definitely more exciting to me than mana leak, and on par with the titans, although I've had time for my titan excitement to wear down.
Wow, this card is so overhyped it's unreal. Rampaging Baloths sees no play and is on a similar power level. Avenger of Zendikar is simply better. Remember that you don't always have turn 1 birds, turn 2 cobra, turn 3 fetchland + this, getting 2 more fetchlands, turn 4 Avenger of Zendikar and cracking the million fetchlands to power out Infinite/Infinite+1 plant tokens followed by swinging in and getting a Sejiri Steppe to provide him with protection and a Bojuka Bog to hit your opponents 4 vengevines he somehow accumulated in his graveyard.
Also remember that if you do have that opening hand, your opponent could play forked bolt on your cobra and birds, or wait until you've dropped your entire hand and 9 for 1 you with day of judgment. Or maybe your starting hand is Sejiri Steppe, Tectonic Edge, Smoldering Spires, Lotus Cobra, Birds, Avenger of Zendikar, Primeval Titan and you can loudly curse your terrible luck at always getting mana screwed with this deck.
Sorry, perhaps a bit too pessimistic and sarcastic :). I do like the utility of the card a lot, but it's nowhere nearly as good as it's being hyped to be.
This is indeed a tough matchup. I was 4-0 at the 5k before losing in 3 games to this.
A resolved Martial Coup is big against them. It clears their board, allows you to attack their planeswalkers, and then chump their Vengevines and friends indefinitely.
Jace Beleren I believe is probably a good bet to bring in from the sideboard. It comes down before their Jace and they aren't generally quick enough to kill it right away with creature beats.
All in all, I don't really know what is the best strategy here. 4 Paths, 4 Oblivion Ring for sure to handle Vengevine and Planeswalkers, so bringing in extra copies from the SB is a sure bet. Deprive is probably a good call as well.
I played Bant 5 out of 10 rounds at the $5k (4 mythic, 1 next level). For me, it was quite prevalent, and I believe I only played the top 16 Mythic deck in the 9th round and didn't face any of the top 8 ones. There was a lot of UWx control. I didn't personally play any Jund, but I saw a lot of that as well.
I honestly believe most of the Mythic blowback is emotional reaction
Not really. The Mythic blowback is because Wizards created a new class of "super rares" that are even rarer than normal rares, and then went and did exactly what they said they wouldn't do and started printing tournament staples at this rarity. If Jace was a normal rare, he would not be worth anywhere close to $80. He's a strong card that sees play in many decks as a 3 or 4 of. Sounds like Bitterblossom, or Mutavault...cards that were never even close to $80, but could easily have been if they were mythic. The Mythic blowback is justified because Mythic rarity is clearly a strong contributor to Jace, Gideon, and Vengevine's absurd prices.
I agree with you about reprinting Jace in the core set as a way to (probably) lower his value, but the real culprit is Wizards inability to stick to their ideals and keep tournament staples out of Mythic Rarity. I hope Wizards has the foresight to fix this problem before it gets out of control because while people are willing to shell out the $$ for Jaces and Gideons now, I doubt they will be willing to do so every 3 months when a new set comes out with the same setup of mythic rares being better for tournament play.
If any random noob could obtain all the same awesome cards as the most passionate players then the game would be a mess. The game would be more about luck involved than true passion and skill.
This makes absolutely no sense. If everyone is on equal footing to begin with (has access to the same cards) then the game is entirely about skill. If people are not on equal footing and said "noobs" are unable to get the best cards, then the game is not about skill, it's about who has more money to sink into having the best cards.
If two players have an identical deck and play each other 100 games and one of the players wins 80 of them, chances are that player is more skilled (although there are some luck elements, like mana screw, etc.). If one player is playing an $800 deck with the best cards in standard, and the other player is playing a $40 deck with crappy rares, and the $800 deck guy wins 80 times out of 100, can you say that he's simply more passionate or skilled at the game? You might even say that the guy with the $40 deck is more skilled at the game for having even won 20 times, because there is such a natural mismatch in terms of deck quality to begin with, that the "noob" has almost no chance of winning, outside of significantly outplaying his opponent.
Everyone having access to the same cards would certainly not make the game a mess. Instead it would make the game truly great, because more people would be able to play the game, leading to an increase in skilled players playing magic, and thus increasing the overall quality in play, and it would make the game less about "who has the ability to acquire the better cards" and instead about "who is the more skilled player."
I dream of a magic online where you pay a monthly fee that gives you access to 4 of every card in standard so long as you are paying the fee. You can play any card you want, and build any deck you want and play them in tournaments. You are playing opponents who are likewise using the best cards at their disposal, so you are never winning or losing purely on $$. I would love that so much, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I currently spend $0 on Magic Online, but if they released this I would be spending $10-$20 a month easily. The only reason I can assume Wizards doesn't do this is because they probably make so much money off of people paying $10-$15 a draft that it probably balances out the 2-3 times more users they would almost certainly have with such a system.
Remember that time in Song of Ice and Fire where there were 5 people left alive and I was so sure there could only be one scum but two people were stupidly scummy and I didn't know what to do so we killed one and it turned out they were both scum and we won anyway?
I remember that time.
In my defense, my role was such that if BigTime got lynched I would lose the game, so my hand was forced into being stupidly scummy...
I played my 56 land 4 Pithing Needle deck in a sanctioned event. I went turn 1 Needle naming Baneslayer and my opponent simply conceded because of the sheer intimidation factor. Winning games the easy way, kids. Just remember to mulligan aggressively.
If you're a moron and path something in the first few turns, then yes, its kind of bad.
If you're not a moron and path only in the mid-to-late game when the mana won't matter much, then it's a very good card.
The problem is that a lot of decks rely on path to be their early answer to creatures. In a lot of situations, you have to use path early game because you won't survive until mid-to-late game unless you do so. Your opponent leads off with a Goblin Guide. Do you path it, or do you take 8 damage until you can get to your turn 4 Day of Judgment?
Path is a good card, but there is a pretty clear reason why a deck like RWU control would rather max out on lightning bolt than max out on path. Bolt is early game removal without a drawback. In an aggro format, early game removal is key, and I'd much rather have a card that doesn't potentially aid my opponent into playing his spells or allow him to play them faster.
I agree with the OP. I think Path is weaker than Terminate and Bolt when it comes to removal right now. The problem with Path is that it's a "late game" removal spell, because the drawback is too strong early game. Plenty of Jund lists run rampant growth maindeck...to say that giving them a rampant growth is meaningless is pretty hilarious when they actually play rampant growth...I've seen Naya struggle to get the right mana for Baneslayer on numerous occasions. Pathing a Wooly Thoctar can fix them into it...etc. Every aggro deck can benefit from acceleration and fixing.
Path is at it's best when you play it late game when your opponent already has their mana developed as much as is necessary and the rampant growth effect is merely deck thinning. The problem is, sometimes you have to use it early game to avoid dying, and in that scenario you do fix and accelerate your opponent into big threats.
Path is removal you don't want to play early game. In an aggro format, that's a drawback. It does have huge upside in cost/restrictions/ability to handle potential problem creatures like Thrinax or Unearth dudes, but there are also downsides. It's worth running in white, but definitely not an auto-include 4 of without question.
Too much arguing over card slots is also a problem here on MTGSalvation. One or two card slots don't change match-up percentages that much, for the most part. Just like the Putrid Leech or Rampant Growth Jund, you're still playing with or against Jund. Ya know? Your strategy isn't much different, if different at all. There also needs to be more emphasis on sideboarding and overall match-up strategy. Instead it's just "you do/don't play card X, so you're bad!"
I'm going to stamp a QFT here. Deck choice is only one part of winning a tournament. Sideboard strategy and knowing how to play matchups is just as important, and those are topics that are rarely discussed.
I do too. If they print a really good proliferate card, then I can see it being really strong. As it stands, this could be a suitable replacement for something like Oblivion Ring. I will definitely be testing it out. A cheaper Icy Manipulator definitely has potential, even if it doesn't pan out in practice.
These are all examples of RDW. If we're talking about RDW, then I agree with you, that elspeth is bad and probably gets sided out along with Day against most RDW lists. Well, at least old Elspeth wasn't good against them. This one might be better because of the lifegain. I thought we were talking about aggro in general, which includes stuff like Naya, Vengevine decks, etc. In that case, Elspeth is a complete beating.
Eldrazi Monument is a good answer to Day of Judgment, but Day of Judgment is still a good card against those decks, because if you can play it before the monument, it makes the monument a dead card. It can be a race at that point to who can play it first, unless the UW player has a counterspell.
If you have those cards out, you're winning the game, and obviously you don't use her ultimate. Do you play Day of Judgment in UW control? Why? It kills your wall of omens and BSA. Day must be terrible in control...
Unlike Day, Elspeth still does something relevant even when you don't want to wrath the board... Elspeth is actually really, really good if you have a BSA, Jace, or Gideon on the board. She protects your other walkers better than old Elspeth did.
Most of the arguments against Elspeth are because she's worse when you're already winning, and some of her abilities are only relevant when you're losing. That's exactly what a control deck WANTS. Win-more cards are useless (I think Venser might turn out to be a win-more card), but cards that become increasingly better the worse the situation looks for you are the best cards to run.
I can't wait to beat people with the card that's bad in UW control :). I also love how both Elspeth's are good at killing other planeswalkers. Apparently Elspeth doesn't like to play nice with her friends.
It's really not that ridiculous. Those two cards don't obviously win against aggro by themselves, but playing a DoJ to clear the board and then laying down numerous chump blockers on a card that's going to just generate more and more if untouched (while gaining you life) is extremely tough for aggro to beat. It buys the control deck so much time to establish complete control of the game. Really, unless the control deck draws nothing but land for the rest of the game (and even then...colonnade beats?), that series of plays is going to win 90% of the time against an aggro list. You can bolt the Elspeth, but then you still have to get through the 3 tokens, which is going to take 2-3 turns to do. In that time, the control deck can play any number of assorted other cards that stomp aggro (Gideon, Baneslayer) and finish the game.
Your counterexamples were really what was the most ridiculous thing. Nobody plays pyroclasm in the same deck as goblin guide. And hypothetically, if you had it in your SB, you wouldn't bring it in against UW anyway. Nobody plays Shrivel period. Earthquake would get the job done for clearing the board and killing Elspeth at the same time, but that card is rotating out. Really, there's no way for an aggro deck to deal with that other than 2 for 1'ing themselves (burn elspeth, creature to plow through the tokens), and since the DoJ was likely a 2+ for 1 as well, it's very likely just game over at that point.
At any rate, UW has always slaughtered traditional aggro anyway (Naya, RDW, etc.). Elspeth is just another tool in the shed there, and Gideon is probably better there anyway.
People are complaining about UW, but I don't see anything that pushes it over the edge or makes it particularly better than it is now. Venser and Elspeth are both competing with Gideon and Baneslayer for the 5 mana slot. There are only so many 5 mana cards that can be run, especially in a format where people are playing Primeval Titan on turn 4. I think this Elspeth is better for control than the original Elspeth in a vacuum, but I think she's worse when you consider most of the other cards vying to be played around it all also cost 5 mana. With that being said, I think new Elspeth's abilities are being underrated. Have people actually played aggro decks against Elspeth before? Even 1 token a turn made life a living hell for ground-based attackers because the damage Elspeth was soaking up provided such a huge buffer for the control player's life total and protected the walkers. The fact that Elspeth also kills the rest of your planeswalkers is pretty much a moot point. If you have the rest of your walkers on the board as well, then you probably don't need to use that ability. And if you do, you can either not play your planeswalkers until you use it, or you can be thankful that you have a reset button when you were going to otherwise lose, even if it puts your Jace into the bin.
As for the Mox: That card is about as utility as they come. Are lands utility cards? Yeah, of course. Does this card perform the function of a land (accelerating, fixing mana)? Yeah, of course. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is, how easy or difficult it is to play, or whether or not it has an 'iconic' word in the title like Mox, it's still Utility. This card doesn't actively do anything other than allow your other cards to more effectively do things. If that's not utility, then what is? I don't really care whether the card is named The Blackest Mox Lotus or not, it's still utility and shouldn't be Mythic. No surprises that Wizards isn't keeping their promises, though. And for this card, I don't particularly care, because I don't see myself playing it in any formats, I'm just sad about the hypothetical future situation when a card I do care about is incorrectly made a Mythic Rare.
Sure, this is bad against Siege-Gang Commander or the Titans, but that's what the rest of the removal in your deck is for. This card is to handle the Putrid Leeches, Baneslayer Angels, Raging Ravines, Vengevines, without having to use a card.
This is a control players dream card here. Definitely more exciting to me than mana leak, and on par with the titans, although I've had time for my titan excitement to wear down.
Also remember that if you do have that opening hand, your opponent could play forked bolt on your cobra and birds, or wait until you've dropped your entire hand and 9 for 1 you with day of judgment. Or maybe your starting hand is Sejiri Steppe, Tectonic Edge, Smoldering Spires, Lotus Cobra, Birds, Avenger of Zendikar, Primeval Titan and you can loudly curse your terrible luck at always getting mana screwed with this deck.
Sorry, perhaps a bit too pessimistic and sarcastic :). I do like the utility of the card a lot, but it's nowhere nearly as good as it's being hyped to be.
A resolved Martial Coup is big against them. It clears their board, allows you to attack their planeswalkers, and then chump their Vengevines and friends indefinitely.
Jace Beleren I believe is probably a good bet to bring in from the sideboard. It comes down before their Jace and they aren't generally quick enough to kill it right away with creature beats.
All in all, I don't really know what is the best strategy here. 4 Paths, 4 Oblivion Ring for sure to handle Vengevine and Planeswalkers, so bringing in extra copies from the SB is a sure bet. Deprive is probably a good call as well.
Not really. The Mythic blowback is because Wizards created a new class of "super rares" that are even rarer than normal rares, and then went and did exactly what they said they wouldn't do and started printing tournament staples at this rarity. If Jace was a normal rare, he would not be worth anywhere close to $80. He's a strong card that sees play in many decks as a 3 or 4 of. Sounds like Bitterblossom, or Mutavault...cards that were never even close to $80, but could easily have been if they were mythic. The Mythic blowback is justified because Mythic rarity is clearly a strong contributor to Jace, Gideon, and Vengevine's absurd prices.
I agree with you about reprinting Jace in the core set as a way to (probably) lower his value, but the real culprit is Wizards inability to stick to their ideals and keep tournament staples out of Mythic Rarity. I hope Wizards has the foresight to fix this problem before it gets out of control because while people are willing to shell out the $$ for Jaces and Gideons now, I doubt they will be willing to do so every 3 months when a new set comes out with the same setup of mythic rares being better for tournament play.
This makes absolutely no sense. If everyone is on equal footing to begin with (has access to the same cards) then the game is entirely about skill. If people are not on equal footing and said "noobs" are unable to get the best cards, then the game is not about skill, it's about who has more money to sink into having the best cards.
If two players have an identical deck and play each other 100 games and one of the players wins 80 of them, chances are that player is more skilled (although there are some luck elements, like mana screw, etc.). If one player is playing an $800 deck with the best cards in standard, and the other player is playing a $40 deck with crappy rares, and the $800 deck guy wins 80 times out of 100, can you say that he's simply more passionate or skilled at the game? You might even say that the guy with the $40 deck is more skilled at the game for having even won 20 times, because there is such a natural mismatch in terms of deck quality to begin with, that the "noob" has almost no chance of winning, outside of significantly outplaying his opponent.
Everyone having access to the same cards would certainly not make the game a mess. Instead it would make the game truly great, because more people would be able to play the game, leading to an increase in skilled players playing magic, and thus increasing the overall quality in play, and it would make the game less about "who has the ability to acquire the better cards" and instead about "who is the more skilled player."
I dream of a magic online where you pay a monthly fee that gives you access to 4 of every card in standard so long as you are paying the fee. You can play any card you want, and build any deck you want and play them in tournaments. You are playing opponents who are likewise using the best cards at their disposal, so you are never winning or losing purely on $$. I would love that so much, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I currently spend $0 on Magic Online, but if they released this I would be spending $10-$20 a month easily. The only reason I can assume Wizards doesn't do this is because they probably make so much money off of people paying $10-$15 a draft that it probably balances out the 2-3 times more users they would almost certainly have with such a system.
In my defense, my role was such that if BigTime got lynched I would lose the game, so my hand was forced into being stupidly scummy...
It still was a pretty bad game, though.
The problem is that a lot of decks rely on path to be their early answer to creatures. In a lot of situations, you have to use path early game because you won't survive until mid-to-late game unless you do so. Your opponent leads off with a Goblin Guide. Do you path it, or do you take 8 damage until you can get to your turn 4 Day of Judgment?
Path is a good card, but there is a pretty clear reason why a deck like RWU control would rather max out on lightning bolt than max out on path. Bolt is early game removal without a drawback. In an aggro format, early game removal is key, and I'd much rather have a card that doesn't potentially aid my opponent into playing his spells or allow him to play them faster.
Path is at it's best when you play it late game when your opponent already has their mana developed as much as is necessary and the rampant growth effect is merely deck thinning. The problem is, sometimes you have to use it early game to avoid dying, and in that scenario you do fix and accelerate your opponent into big threats.
Path is removal you don't want to play early game. In an aggro format, that's a drawback. It does have huge upside in cost/restrictions/ability to handle potential problem creatures like Thrinax or Unearth dudes, but there are also downsides. It's worth running in white, but definitely not an auto-include 4 of without question.
I'm going to stamp a QFT here. Deck choice is only one part of winning a tournament. Sideboard strategy and knowing how to play matchups is just as important, and those are topics that are rarely discussed.