They use the excuse of "fair" deck but the deck is not fair at all.
7 discards + 4 counter spells + removals + 4 snap is not fair, you don't allow you opponent to play anything, then put on the play big guy with low mana cost and GG ez.
Gotta point out how horribly wrong this statement is. A game plan of heavy disruption early game into big threat mid game is literally the definition of fair in MTG. Calling a deck that interacts with the opponent then kills them with an undercosted beater unfair is ludicrous at best
I don't want a ban but I think something needs to be done about the fact the meta is so gy heavy. Ggt needed a ban because decks needed too much gy hate and here we are in almost an even worse spot.
It's not a problem if there are multiple decks that rely on the graveyard, though. It just becomes wise sideboarding. The problem with GGT Dredge was that it was the only upper tier deck that used the graveyard, so you had to pack 4 pieces of sideboard hate to have a chance against one deck.
So by that line of thought in just this short time ggt is now a safe card again.
Yea this logic isnt great. The difference is that with dredge you can only fight the deck with GY hate. Against snappy/goyf decks, you /can/ bring in grave hate but they can be interacted with in much more efficient ways
So consensus is "No Bans"? I mean despite all I've said, I would take it with no frustration. Things are still evolving.
Yes, no bans is correct for a multitude of reasons. Modern has been in a great place with high diversity and the number of lopsided matcups has decreased dramatically. Todays results are an outlier compared to the rest of this ban seasons, and death shadow decks as a whole are far too young to truly be judged as either the real deal or just a good deck that is overplayed. Also, using their new "in between" banlist for modern at a time when the format is not shattered to pieces like during eldrazi winter sets a dangerous precedent, i would prefer to only see this announcement used for unbans and emergency standard bans
I'll never understand how people wouldn't play Serum Visions on turn one despite being on a single land in hand. It's pretty much the only option available, expecially against an unknown opponent.
Because we are digging 5 cards deep for our second land the next turn anyways, this way you get to disrupt their game plan first to give you the air needed to spend your second turn digging
Gotta agree that the new system is garbage. The sheer number of "tier 1" decks scream of a flawed system. Such a shame, this site used to be the best place to go for both data and discussion, this is a huge backwards step for everyone
Everyone does realize that deaths shadow has fallen from the top, right? You know how everyone said, give the meta time to adjust? Well, it did, and the deck found a super healthy place in the meta, let's take a week off of complaining about it. I'm much more interested in discussing the rapid resurgence of dredge in recent leagues
Yes but it weren't interactive decks that gained popularity, it was mainly stuff like Dredge, Storm and Affinity. UW control also(as expected)so far didn't live up to its hype.
The metagame is becoming more linear again similar to the state before the recent bannings, except that Death's Shadow has replaced the much slower traditional BGx and made the format even faster.
So far it looks like bans aren't the answer when it comes to making the format less linear, I really hope that at least Stoneforge Mystic will be unbanned soon.
I mean, it turns out that banning probe didnt hurt affinity at all and making dredge mill 1.5 less per turn didn't do much and amalgam was the correct ban? Affinity and dredge rising to the top has nothing to do with deaths shadow decks yet all that has been discussed in here is whether we should ban Thoughtseize or if just hitting street wraith is enough
Everyone does realize that deaths shadow has fallen from the top, right? You know how everyone said, give the meta time to adjust? Well, it did, and the deck found a super healthy place in the meta, let's take a week off of complaining about it. I'm much more interested in discussing the rapid resurgence of dredge in recent leagues
In a truly healthy standard, combo, control, aggro, midrange are all well represented. Cat Combo was not broken, at all. Wizards destroyed control, neutered fast mana, and got rid of pretty much any playable hand disruption that could get at the combo before it comes online. Hence why I hate the decision to drop the Core Sets. Love them or hate them, core sets are the PERFECT place to keep answers to upcoming power creep cards in check, Lightning Bolt, Duress, Mana Leak, Condemn/Path, nothing new, nothing broken, just answers that balance a format going forward. It isn't that hard R&D...
Control might be resurfacing given the new tools from Amonkhet, namely Essence Scatter and Censor. But how was cat combo NOT broken? A deck that can win out of nocons is and limits consistent your play pros isn't broken?
I think Wizards' neutering control was intentional and I think for good reason: it doesn't showcase new cards as well on Twitch and more importantly, it's not fun to play against.
Not to mention those instances where a control deck can drag a game out forever and then securing a win at the last minute and then walking away with a match win just because time ran out. Why should that person get points for an entire match when everyone else had to win two games? That is not fair and using a deck like that should be a DQ for slow play.
So the only things not unfair and fun are things you enjoy playing and playing against? Is that seriously what this game has come to?
If Magic degenerates any further into midrange turn monsters sideways decks for the sake of product placement on the interwebs then count me out. I played through combo winter, actually enjoyed playing Necropotence. I played through Saber Bargain when people hated Yawgmoth's Will, played through Affinity and it's hate. Each time those willing to play control or fringe aggro strategies feasted on the combo decks. Variety matters. No Cat Combo was not broken. A seven mana investment that dies immediately to removal, countermagic, or hand disruption is not broken. It's just very good. The fact that the answers in standard are lacking doesn't make the combo any more or less broken. Yawgmoth's Will, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Skirge Familiar, Dark Ritual, Grim Monolith that can win turn turn 2, that combo was broken, Channel Fireball was broken.
Slow play is a completely different issue and should be handled at the judge level. It doesn't matter what deck strategy they are playing, it's unfun for everyone involved against a slow player. Control being unfun to play against is your opinion. I enjoy it because it takes careful situational play analysis that turning dudes sideways doesn't. To each their own. But standard is dying because no one is happy with the format not being what they want it to be.
The lack of good answers for the combo in Standard is part of the reason why the combo is broken. Everyone says "just hold a Shock" but we did and yet copycat consistently takes home first place at almost every major event. The deck can also easily win without the combo, so if you focus on just preventing the combo, then you're likely to lose through other means. Not to mention deck building itself: building am anti copycat deck is very plausible but building one that's also good against Mardu Vehicles is practically impossible; that's what happened at PT AER. In conclusion, a deck that restricts how you play and even how you build your deck? Yeah quite broken.
More importantly, it's not fun to play against. Sitting through the whole game with the threat of an instant win while trying to prevent the onslaught of several other things is not fun: it makes one feel powerless and fighting a losing battle. Same goes for having all your creatures countered or losing an entire match after just one game. Many matches were won even if one loses the first round, but against a slow control deck they don't even get the chance. Even if you don't agree that it's slow play, you can't deny that outcomes like this are unfair and is annoying that there's no rule in place to mitigate this.
Back in theros standard, it was not the control decks going to time, it was the gw devotion decks going to time. Last standard, it was bant company. There are a lot of scenarios that can lead to lengthy matches. If you lose a match due to going to time, blaming the loss on the clock instead of yourself is just as bad as blaming every loss to variance. I play control on MODO, and more often than not i end the match with twice as much time on my clock as they do. This is caused by the other player agonizing over every play in a game that is already lost. I can be at 20 life with 7 cards in hand while they are topdecking, and instead of scooping to game 2 they play it out for that .2% chance they miraculously come back. This happens very often in paper as well, when you sit down at a match and realize what your opponent is playing, you need to know how the matchup works. Are you the beat down? Are you the control deck? Does your life total matter? Is time an issue? These are all of the questions i start asking myself every match from the first land drop. If time is an issue in the matchup, scoop game 1 when you start thinking in your head silly things like "alright if i draw exactly this series of cards and they dont have a counter/wrath, i might have this" instead of playing it out. If life totals are typically under pressure quickly in the matchup, you fetch a basic and you chumpblock that 5/5. These are the things that separate good players from bad players
Which is why I want a strong permission card, and leave TS alone
But we should agree at least that TS is incredibly powerful. Being on the receiving end of Turn 1 TS/IoK, Turn 2 a follow-up TS/IoK, I can tell you that the game is nearly over at that point, in many situations. Imagine mulling to 6 or 5 and then getting seized. Luckily we only have one card like TS. Everything else has varying limitations. Though I find IoK more powerful in many situations as well considering the average card cost in the format.
I tend to have a problem with discard in general, not because I think it shouldnt exist, but because too many players underestimate its potency, and yet turn around and complain about permission being too strong.
I'd like strong permission too. It's things like not printing a real miscalculation or punting on a revolt counterspell that gets me so frustrated w/ wizards.
Even though I'm quite happy with where the format is at right now, there is always room for improvement. I'm not sure what the answer to improving the format is, but I'm fairly certain it isn't more bannings. Regardless of whether or not people think the DS decks are stronger than their meta % actually indicates, the numbers just aren't there, at least not yet.
Edit: miscalculation*
Ds numbers have only been on the decline since it's breakout performances as well, so by the looks of it the ds decks will settle in a healthy place in the meta as long as no new technology is dug up from the dark depths of gatherer
I'm not an expert on secondary markets, but I'm pretty sure the price of Leovold isn't because of us, so I expect almost no impact.
If you want to build Hulk dedicated combo, you can, just like Hermit Druid. We think there's enough fun and value for the target audience that it warranted coming off, and a few Flash/Hulk combos isn't going to scare it back on.
In other news, since Commander players know how to Top, you can still play that in this format!
Same exact argument can be made for gifts though, except gifts is actually interesting as a value card
if you want to use flash, it requires 4 colors. all combo pieces are within abzan colors though
But you could also just get Grand Architect, Pili-Pala, and Sylvan Safekeeper in UG. Cast Flash during your last opponent's end step, then untap and win with infinite mana with protection against creature spot removal. Thrasios, Triton Hero in the command zone would be ideal for this. Or I guess you could get some outlet for infinite mana instead of Sylvan Safekeeper.
didnt even think about that, forgot about just making infinite mana. but, if your commander is not inclusive to the combo, you still need to be in abzan as far as i can tell
Gotta point out how horribly wrong this statement is. A game plan of heavy disruption early game into big threat mid game is literally the definition of fair in MTG. Calling a deck that interacts with the opponent then kills them with an undercosted beater unfair is ludicrous at best
Yea this logic isnt great. The difference is that with dredge you can only fight the deck with GY hate. Against snappy/goyf decks, you /can/ bring in grave hate but they can be interacted with in much more efficient ways
Yes, no bans is correct for a multitude of reasons. Modern has been in a great place with high diversity and the number of lopsided matcups has decreased dramatically. Todays results are an outlier compared to the rest of this ban seasons, and death shadow decks as a whole are far too young to truly be judged as either the real deal or just a good deck that is overplayed. Also, using their new "in between" banlist for modern at a time when the format is not shattered to pieces like during eldrazi winter sets a dangerous precedent, i would prefer to only see this announcement used for unbans and emergency standard bans
Because we are digging 5 cards deep for our second land the next turn anyways, this way you get to disrupt their game plan first to give you the air needed to spend your second turn digging
I mean, it turns out that banning probe didnt hurt affinity at all and making dredge mill 1.5 less per turn didn't do much and amalgam was the correct ban? Affinity and dredge rising to the top has nothing to do with deaths shadow decks yet all that has been discussed in here is whether we should ban Thoughtseize or if just hitting street wraith is enough
Back in theros standard, it was not the control decks going to time, it was the gw devotion decks going to time. Last standard, it was bant company. There are a lot of scenarios that can lead to lengthy matches. If you lose a match due to going to time, blaming the loss on the clock instead of yourself is just as bad as blaming every loss to variance. I play control on MODO, and more often than not i end the match with twice as much time on my clock as they do. This is caused by the other player agonizing over every play in a game that is already lost. I can be at 20 life with 7 cards in hand while they are topdecking, and instead of scooping to game 2 they play it out for that .2% chance they miraculously come back. This happens very often in paper as well, when you sit down at a match and realize what your opponent is playing, you need to know how the matchup works. Are you the beat down? Are you the control deck? Does your life total matter? Is time an issue? These are all of the questions i start asking myself every match from the first land drop. If time is an issue in the matchup, scoop game 1 when you start thinking in your head silly things like "alright if i draw exactly this series of cards and they dont have a counter/wrath, i might have this" instead of playing it out. If life totals are typically under pressure quickly in the matchup, you fetch a basic and you chumpblock that 5/5. These are the things that separate good players from bad players
Ds numbers have only been on the decline since it's breakout performances as well, so by the looks of it the ds decks will settle in a healthy place in the meta as long as no new technology is dug up from the dark depths of gatherer
hulk w/ sac outlet on board:
sac hulk, get karmic guide + cutthroat
karmic guide brings back hulk, sac hulk for reveillark + whatever
sac guide, sac cutthroat, sac reveillark, bring back guide and cutthroat reanimating reveillark, repeat?
Same exact argument can be made for gifts though, except gifts is actually interesting as a value card
didnt even think about that, forgot about just making infinite mana. but, if your commander is not inclusive to the combo, you still need to be in abzan as far as i can tell
there are already very few copies left on tcgplayer. i reccomend just buying one now to not risk it
if you want to use flash, it requires 4 colors. all combo pieces are within abzan colors though
"hey, here is a creature that you can use to tutor all your combo pieces to the field at once"