I am a lurker in this thread. Bought many key pieces of Tron.
Do you have a list you are running for us to see?
(Forgive me if I missed it in this large primer)
I like the list. Close to traditional, but with your own touches. I am curious though, no Eldrazi Temple and you can reliably hit the TKS's?
Also curious (and this is a general question, not related to just your list) - what are the primary board out targets?
For example if you are playing against burn then Pyroclasm is an obvious choice to leave for Feed the Clan - well mostly obvious since you may want to kill their Eidolons, Guides and/or Swiftspears.
I guess the better question is, what do you NEVER board out?
I'm not personally feeling (Thought-Knot Seer), but I haven't tried it. It doesn't seem super likely to have before T3 and it doesn't seem as impactful on T3 as other options. If you flounder and don't end up with Tron on T4 I guess you're doing better than otherwise since you have something you can probably cast but are you winning that game anyway? As I said I haven't tested it. Perhaps if you play temples and go full on EldraziTron then it's an auto-include but otherwise not sure.
TKS isn't replacing any of your other turn three options, though, besides possibly Conduit of Ruin. Conduit is good for racing to Ulamog, true, but I still feel like the fast aggro and combo decks are where we need the most help, even after losing Eye. Conduit is tailor-made to be better against midrange and control, but he's more of a liability post-board if your opponents are on land destruction (GQ in particular still seems popular).
TKS gives you some amazing turn three and four plays, even without Tron online. Of course it's great in decks packing Eldrazi Temples, but even without them, the ability to gum up the board while also ripping their best spell out of their hand is great. If you have a Wurmcoil or Karn, of course you'll usually want to be dropping those first, but at least with TKS you can draw removal or counterspells (bonus that TKS with Tron online also helps against Mana Leak, or Remand after turn four) to protect them.
Stony Silence is trending as well, so more options to have when our early Maps and Eggs are shut off is nice. We're both big fans of Pyroclasm, and TKS can allow you to sweep, drop a threat, and rip a card all on the turn three if you're lucky. You get another turn four backbreaker along with Ulamog if you ramp well; cast TKS to screen, then Wurmcoil on the same turn...just gross.
Swingy/lucky plays aside, TKS is very good against Burn, Zoo, and Infect, and gives us options against fast combo that we didn't have before. At the same time, it's resilient enough on its own (by dodging Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt) to provide enough of a threat presence to take over drawn-out games. Seriously, please playtest the card before you write it off; I really think you'll be surprised by how much it gives this deck.
Thenarus,
I am a lurker in this thread. Bought many key pieces of Tron.
Do you have a list you are running for us to see?
(Forgive me if I missed it in this large primer)
I manage to hit a Courser of Kruphix and 5 Forests.
Do they all enter the battlefield at the same time? And if so, does this mean I gain zero life from those Forests entering the battlefield with Courser of Kruphix?
Or do I gain 5 life?
In my first run of the decklist I ran 3 Wistful Selkie and 2 Abundant Growth for the cantrips. I will be losing all of that now if I go with this idea - is it crippling to lose that much in cantrips in favor of Haste/Wither/Undying?
Unsure, but it's certainly an idea.
Arcx,
Thank you for the tip on Sarkhan Vol, I had forgotten about him. He may well be better than Urabrask the Hidden in terms of castability and other utility.
A few simple questions:
I won't bore you with my traditional decklist, but I'm trying a Genesis Wave build.
1: Traditional list plays 3 or 4 Wistful Selkie - I am attempting Wilt-leaf Cavaliers in that slot. Reasoning is that Pyroclasm nukes my Selkies and ends my devotion. I know Leatherback Baloth exists for this purpose, but what do you think about running Cavaliers when you are running 2 Joraga Treespeakers (Elf creature type relevance) and you want offense+defense from the vigilance the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers bring?
2: In the side board I am debating between 3 Crumble to Dust OR 3 Stone Rain. In this Eldrazi meta, which do you guys feel is smarter right now? Go for speed with Stone Rain or tech with Crumble to Dust?
3: Lastly, in my solitaire testing I have noticed many times I have just chained several Genesis Waves, but when it's time to seal the deal I wish I could win with the army I just built. To this end I have placed 1 Urabrask the Hidden and play the deck at 61. (Note: I am playing Red/Green so hard-casting Urabrask is certainly possible)
I am wondering if this feels like overkill or potentially a good idea? I also mulled over the idea of using Fervor or Emblem of the Warmind. Remember that Genesis Wave hits permanents so any of these being hit turns on Arbor Elfs, Joraga Treespeakers, etc. The ultimate goal is to Genesis Wave into many creatures and then simply swing for the hasted win (Garruk Wildspeakers -4 is key here).
Assume I cast Primal Command and choose these two modes:
Put target noncreature permanent on top it's owners library.
Target player shuffles their graveyard into their library.
Let's assume my goal in this situation is to place my opponent's Krark-Clan Ironworks on top his library and then have him shuffle it away. Pretty straight forward since the modes resolve in the order printed on the card, yes?
However, what if my opponent's graveyard is empty? Is my opponent still forced to "shuffle his graveyard into his library" despite his graveyard having zero cards?
Any suggestions on fighting through an oppressive Roon player? Once he starts blinking, it get's almost impossible to deal with him. More hand disruption and library hate? Is the only way to try and strip his pieces from the deck or deny him mana by destroying lands?
Outside of those 3 cards just remove Roon. If he is protecting Roon with hexproof or shroud then pack Arcane Lighthouse and/or Glaring Spotlight. I know it is difficult once Roon has multiple blink effects though, consider Sudden Death or similar split second options if that's the case.
It sucks to try to alter your whole deck just to beat your opponent - if you are trying to stick to Kaalia as it's laid out in this primer then do your best to attack his mana base with Armageddon or hit his creature board with Balefire Dragon.
Don't forget about Grand Abolisher and Defense Grid to help (doesn't solve the problem - but can be helpful)
Oh, thank you FuriousMarsupial. That is actually the work around I was looking for. A way in which I can cast it on my turn without it harming me. That's perfect!
My goal in this situation is to cast Wing Shards and Mirror Strike this turn, but only so that they will enter my graveyard rather than exile - I don't care about their effects and obviously casting those during my turn would be detrimental to my game plan.
Can I cast Wing Shards on my second main phase targeting just myself - and since there's no attacking creature on my main phase - it will do nothing?
More importantly, can I cast Mirror Strike on my second main phase - targeting any creature, regardless if it's unblocked or not, to have it do nothing and hit my graveyard? Or is a requirement of Mirror Strike being cast that it must target an unblocked creature?
The goal is just to ensure that when I whiff with a Narset swing that my spells aren't going to remain in exile and instead can go to graveyard to be used later (Mistveil Plains).
Assume I have Kiora, the Crashing Wave in play and my opponent has no board state what-so-ever. He/she has zero permanents in play (possibly due to some board wipe).
Can I activate Kiora's first ability with no targets?
I realize I can usually target things like lands or other permanents that may never deal damage to me, but I need to know specifically in this instance when my opponent has zero permanents.
With a card like Liliana Vess for example I know I can activate her first ability even if no players have cards in their hands because it targets players, it doesn't care if they have cards or not. Which is why I ask the question - even if it's comparing apples and oranges.
I like the list. Close to traditional, but with your own touches. I am curious though, no Eldrazi Temple and you can reliably hit the TKS's?
Also curious (and this is a general question, not related to just your list) - what are the primary board out targets?
For example if you are playing against burn then Pyroclasm is an obvious choice to leave for Feed the Clan - well mostly obvious since you may want to kill their Eidolons, Guides and/or Swiftspears.
I guess the better question is, what do you NEVER board out?
Thenarus,
I am a lurker in this thread. Bought many key pieces of Tron.
Do you have a list you are running for us to see?
(Forgive me if I missed it in this large primer)
Appreciate the insight.
Assume I cast a Genesis Wave with X being 6.
I manage to hit a Courser of Kruphix and 5 Forests.
Do they all enter the battlefield at the same time? And if so, does this mean I gain zero life from those Forests entering the battlefield with Courser of Kruphix?
Or do I gain 5 life?
Thank you!
I appreciate the insight into my idea of Wilt-leaf Cavaliers and haste enablers. With this in mind, perhaps Wilt-leaf Cavaliers comes out in favor of Boggart Ram-Gang. This still fulfills the devotion I want and survives Pyroclasm. In addition it has the haste that helps on Craterhoof Behemoth Genesis Waves.
Next, perhaps Abundant Growth leaves in favor of Strangleroot Geists.
In my first run of the decklist I ran 3 Wistful Selkie and 2 Abundant Growth for the cantrips. I will be losing all of that now if I go with this idea - is it crippling to lose that much in cantrips in favor of Haste/Wither/Undying?
Unsure, but it's certainly an idea.
Arcx,
Thank you for the tip on Sarkhan Vol, I had forgotten about him. He may well be better than Urabrask the Hidden in terms of castability and other utility.
A few simple questions:
I won't bore you with my traditional decklist, but I'm trying a Genesis Wave build.
1: Traditional list plays 3 or 4 Wistful Selkie - I am attempting Wilt-leaf Cavaliers in that slot. Reasoning is that Pyroclasm nukes my Selkies and ends my devotion. I know Leatherback Baloth exists for this purpose, but what do you think about running Cavaliers when you are running 2 Joraga Treespeakers (Elf creature type relevance) and you want offense+defense from the vigilance the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers bring?
2: In the side board I am debating between 3 Crumble to Dust OR 3 Stone Rain. In this Eldrazi meta, which do you guys feel is smarter right now? Go for speed with Stone Rain or tech with Crumble to Dust?
3: Lastly, in my solitaire testing I have noticed many times I have just chained several Genesis Waves, but when it's time to seal the deal I wish I could win with the army I just built. To this end I have placed 1 Urabrask the Hidden and play the deck at 61. (Note: I am playing Red/Green so hard-casting Urabrask is certainly possible)
I am wondering if this feels like overkill or potentially a good idea? I also mulled over the idea of using Fervor or Emblem of the Warmind. Remember that Genesis Wave hits permanents so any of these being hit turns on Arbor Elfs, Joraga Treespeakers, etc. The ultimate goal is to Genesis Wave into many creatures and then simply swing for the hasted win (Garruk Wildspeakers -4 is key here).
Appreciate any insight.
Assume I cast Primal Command and choose these two modes:
Let's assume my goal in this situation is to place my opponent's Krark-Clan Ironworks on top his library and then have him shuffle it away. Pretty straight forward since the modes resolve in the order printed on the card, yes?
However, what if my opponent's graveyard is empty? Is my opponent still forced to "shuffle his graveyard into his library" despite his graveyard having zero cards?
Thank you for your replies.
Torpor Orb. Hushwing Gryff.
Containment Priest.EDIT: Be careful with Containment Priest since that obviously wrecks your own strategy with Kaalia!
Come to think of it, all 3 of those cards can be damaging to us too...
Outside of those 3 cards just remove Roon. If he is protecting Roon with hexproof or shroud then pack Arcane Lighthouse and/or Glaring Spotlight. I know it is difficult once Roon has multiple blink effects though, consider Sudden Death or similar split second options if that's the case.
It sucks to try to alter your whole deck just to beat your opponent - if you are trying to stick to Kaalia as it's laid out in this primer then do your best to attack his mana base with Armageddon or hit his creature board with Balefire Dragon.
Don't forget about Grand Abolisher and Defense Grid to help (doesn't solve the problem - but can be helpful)
Thank you.
My goal in this situation is to cast Wing Shards and Mirror Strike this turn, but only so that they will enter my graveyard rather than exile - I don't care about their effects and obviously casting those during my turn would be detrimental to my game plan.
Can I cast Wing Shards on my second main phase targeting just myself - and since there's no attacking creature on my main phase - it will do nothing?
More importantly, can I cast Mirror Strike on my second main phase - targeting any creature, regardless if it's unblocked or not, to have it do nothing and hit my graveyard? Or is a requirement of Mirror Strike being cast that it must target an unblocked creature?
The goal is just to ensure that when I whiff with a Narset swing that my spells aren't going to remain in exile and instead can go to graveyard to be used later (Mistveil Plains).
Thank you!
Can I activate Kiora's first ability with no targets?
I realize I can usually target things like lands or other permanents that may never deal damage to me, but I need to know specifically in this instance when my opponent has zero permanents.
With a card like Liliana Vess for example I know I can activate her first ability even if no players have cards in their hands because it targets players, it doesn't care if they have cards or not. Which is why I ask the question - even if it's comparing apples and oranges.
Thank you.