So I've had some more time to sift through some of the comments on my work breaks, now I'm home.
For starters,
I still stand by my original conclusion that cookie cutters are cancer to magic. I give props to the original deckmaker, whoever that might be, and no one else. Here's a challenge: Make an original deck that can stand up to most streamlined decks, if you can do that, then you know a thing or two about magic. Using someone else's deck does not require deep knowledge on the finer nuiances of the game, to know what works and more importantly, WHY. After deck building is taken out of the equation, you're most left with 'luck of the draw'. There is very little skill in the in-game decision making, the choices you make are usually obvious and only have a few each turn anyway. This isn't chess, where there are 18 possible moves in the first turn. ( I play chess BTW)
Don't get me wrong, I am by no means pro tier. I cannot make decks as refined as, say a mono red burn. I'm constantly swapping out cards, and I have a hard time stripping it down to 60 cards most of the time. My current best deck is 78 cards, however I've seen a few 200+card decks out there (don't really see the point but whatever). This is the area I struggle with the most, it's prioritizing. What do I want 4 of and what needs only 1?
Those who only play to win at all costs, or those who play aggro decks in order to grind out the daily rewards faster, you do realize that your opponent is also trying to grind it out? Playing a red burn deck makes it much harder for anyone else to grind especially because it seems like almost 50% of the people I play use this exact deck. I'm bloody tired of it.
Even if you think I'm an idiot and can't play because I can't beat this outrageous deck, you can't argue the fact that it's way too common online. This alone should send alarm bells that maybe it's popular for a reason, because it's that good. It would not be so common if it wasn't at least close to as good as I claim it is.
And lastly, if you're not playing tournaments, or money isn't on the line, then playing under the philosophy of "playing to win", is pointless. Why do people play games in the first place? Is it solely for the sake of winning? Or is it because they are fun to play?
We all know how good the red burn deck is. It's been played out a million times. Do something else if for no other reason than to mix things up and make things interesting again. Whatever you do, if you play me using a land destruction deck I will track you down and murder your whole family
What it's come down to is making a purely anti-red deck. Nothing but life gain and deck-out. I call it the "red can go **** itself" deck. It's my way of showing my middle finger to all the degenerate copy-cats who think they can play because someone else came up with the winning deck.
Okay rant over.
I know this is a late reply to this ancient thread.
First of all every format have its archetypes and meta, eventually players will choose the best and most streamlined efficient way to build their decks. Being ignorant about it and whining when you lose to a better player is just being bad and salty.
You said your best deck have 78 cards. Wizards and everyone have said before that 60 is the optimal unless you have a deck that specially needs more which is extremely rare. You come in here to whine about mono red aggro, but you Didn’t even get the basics right in the first place.
You refusing to be similar to any other netdeck out there doesn’t make you better or special, just makes you silly. Even players who have come out with their own special brew have studied the meta and the archetypes themselves before constructing their decks.
The solution to beat RDW? I think most players have already said. Anything life gain, control decks.. so many ways to beat red decks.
I play red deck wins and I also play esper control. Although my variants aren’t exactly the same as the netdecks, they win me games.
Been reading the discussion on ET. I think neo7hinker has been very patient with his responses to everyone. There is no need to diss a deck which has just recently put up some decent results. I think all the flak it is getting is just unnecessary and silly espescially calling it a hot pile of garbage, it's not helpful at all when you are repeatedly condemning the deck, just have some inputs on how to improve it Would have been enough. The bottom line is both draw go and ET have their advantages and disadvantages.
Geezus... at one point of time the discussion reminded me of a toxic era in the 8rack thread.
Chalice has always been spectacular for me, even late game against some decks. On a separate note, Filigree Familiar or Bottle Gnomes in side? They basically fill the same role but I'm not sure which is better.
Bottle gnomes give me the option of gaining life whenever I want. Always found the gnomes more superior, and has saved me a couple of times against burn match ups.
So Dredge is large meta-share right now, and is a bad match-up for this deck. Unfortunately, other decks packing graveyard hate isn't good for this archetype either.
That being said, I'm interested in discussing rest in peace in our sideboard. RiP completely shuts down our main win condition, but is significantly worst for Dredge than us, when played on turn two or three. I am considering trying out Rest in Peace instead of Tormod's Crypt. While Tormod's Crypt is "free" and can be recurred with Sun Titan, it doesn't do enough to slowdown Dredge in the matches I've played.
If we play Rest in Peace, Sun Titan is pretty much just a 6/6 for 6 and Emeria is a Plains, but it makes our Wrath's permanent against their graveyard Creatures. I think with their deck hosed enough, Sun Titan and Flickerwisp could close-out the game even without Emeria online. Most Dredge list won't have removal for either threat outside of Stinkweed imp. If they Disenchant Rest in Peace, Sun Titan can bring it back. We can just play a value/control game and win with a Six-drop and removal.
What are your opinions? Outside of Kami of the False Hope and other narrow tech, most of the usual sideboard cards aren't great against dredge.
Yup Rest in Peace will screw our graveyard gameplan but yeah its still a very powerful answer to dredge. Tormod's Crypt is still a good option but probably needs more answers later, so usually Ghostly Prison is a good stopper for aggro based decks which don't have many lands, just have to watch out for nature's claim etc. Surgical extraction also works. A Wipe like hallowed burial can be good against dredge but its 5cc, we may die before that.
Thanks for the list! I ordered 2 Nevermore and 1 Pithing Needle for some cheap combo/planeswalker-hate That's what I like about this deck: It's quite cheap and it can put up a fight
You having only 19 creatures and lots of sweepers main is pretty interesting. Cutting 3 Pilgrim's Eye or 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner or what-have-you altogether is a curious choice. Crucible and Gideon (I'm sure) are pretty expensive cards, but I may test some replacements there... The list got me brainstorming
EDIT: Nevermind about Gideon! It's cheap to my surprise.
Yup Gideon is quite affordable. Unfortunately Crucible isn't cheap, was very lucky my good friend passed me his binder with a crucible inside haha. The wipes are a meta call though, lots of aggro these days. Actually... Crucible, wrath of god and Gideon are flex slots. Although to me Crucible is a necessity as it help me in a lot of ways especially ensuring i have land drop every turn or the ability to bring back quarter to destroy tron lands/any important lands the opponent have.
But i think your choice of having eldrazi skyspawner is a good one, you don't really need crucible i guess, skyspawners + Flickers can ramp to your titan real quick.
Gideon, is just that guy who beats down after a wipe haha, he also tanks aggro for you or even delay kikijiki combo with his +2(Although the combo is almost non existent, cousin still plays it though), you can also flicker him when he is a creature to replenish his points again.
I play more wipes because eventually i'll get my creatures back on the board with emeria and titan. Our creatures are expandable, decks like elves, merfolk, affinity value their creatures more. Dredge however... argh, that is where Surgicals, tormod's and ghostly prisons come in.
[quote from="Frostymourne »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/757085-azourius-titan-emeria-control?comment=96"]You can try Nevermore in your sideboard, great against combo decks. I've ever nevermore Thoughtknot seer it helped to cripple my opponent.
My cousin has been bugging me to play test lunar force in main, maybe you can try that. Anyway your deck at its current state is pretty decent. Nevermore is a good card that fit's nicely, but I would like to try Runed Halo in this spot as it's cheaper and answers threats a different way.
I tried Lunar Force main, and it was ok. However, there are cards that are more powerfull than this one and I would keep using these (exanmple: Swan Song).
Ah ic ic. Yeah Rune halo is a great card, though i usually use nevermore as a combo stopper. Maybe i should find space to put rune halo in too..
Can somebody collect everything positive about Pack Rat in one post for me please? Why you (or other people) think it's good, the situations he's good in, his "value", everything. Why would you want to play that card, things like that. I want to change my opinion of it so please, every Pack Rat lover out there, chime in and let me know why it's so great!
Mmm ok. Pack rat is much like a plan B. It can single handedly win games by its own. It's also quite resilient.
Just a few examples. You inquisition and you see 1 removal. Take away removal. by turn 2 play pack rat. Turn 3 play your 3rd land, Pass the turn. If he draws a spot removal doesn't matter, you can make token already. End of his turn make a pack rat. Let's say he doesn't have a removal, by his end turn you have 2 rats. On your turn 4 You can have 3 rats, if you have 4 lands including a mutavault you have 3 rats which can be 4/4. Repeat and if everything goes well the opponent can't deal with the pack rat problem you win.
Against a hand full of removals, just play as per normal. When they have no more removals, sometimes they assume you play no creatures they throw away their spot removals from wrench minds. Play pack rat, pass the turn, if they still don have removals that's great, assuming you have racks and shrieking in range maybe he have 0-1 cards, You can just Attack Hand.. win the way 8rack does. Let's say he manage to draw more cards for whatever reason maybe ancestral visions or sphinx, or you didn't draw hand removals. You can continue to build your rat army if you feel the rack won't get in range.. play plan b.
For situations where you play pack rat behind the bridge. You can build your rat army, lily can continue to +1. If opponent draws a removal against bridge, your rat army is a backup.
A round of Primer updates! I am happy to bring you a few improvements to the primer. The dreaded section that tells people the truth about Pack Rat and Smallpox has been removed and I want to talk a little bit about why. I'll put it in a spoiler below to not distract the majority who don't give a damn and wouldn't read it anyway. Other than that, the "community spotlight" section got updated with new decklists. This time around I am featuring Timba's XMage Jesus deck (if there are any updates to the list please let me know) and FearDReaper's Mentor list. I'm going to put his/Memory's Myth decks there too, but I want a little more other than first impressions. Meanwhile, the removed section of the forum has been replaced by a new piece called "Card evaluation theory". It's oriented towards new players and is highly experimental at this stage, but basically it's a card rating model. I was planning on running an entire 8Rack build through it as an example, but I got lazy (raise the pitchforks!) and just did the core + the racks as a counterpoint. I know it's not a perfect model (yet), but do let me know what you think.
Next up is the poll. With a lot more votes than anticipated and the community's choice being one I like, I will be closing the poll and starting right away with updating each decklist with it's own visual spoiler. I'll put another feedback poll on those after they've been made, but because each one requires some editing and fiddling to turn into the picture you see, this feature will arrive late Monday/early Tuesday (european time). Even without the poll being up, don't hesitate to leave feedback on the existing one - do you even want that at all, is it too big, too small, etc. Along with the visual spoilers, the decklists withing the Primer will be updated too. A lot of people don't understand that there is a lot of experimental stuff there. I have cleaned them up and will ship the updates rather soon. Whether you like it or not, the BR (Mardu!) list is going to stay as I still haven't had more success with any other version. After that's done I will be moving to another experimental project - BG 8Rack and most of my playtesting is going to be concentrated there.
Alright, now let's address something at peace. The section about Pack Rat and Smallpox has always been intended as a section dedicated to help players who are new to the game or strategy and aid them in the deckbuilding process. A lot of people are salty that cards they like and think are good were put there as examples of how to not build a deck, but at the end of the day that's the truth and I don't feel bad about it. Communicating that in a clear way, on the other hand, was a problem. Since a lot of the newcomers are either from Rob's YouTube channel or had their first exposure to the deck at the hands of Tom Ross, they come in and think that because they play them they shouldn't be there. Which, objectively, is not the case at all. Tom Ross was playing Sceptre of Fugue, too, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
The real problem I had with that piece is that it wasn't well written. I would never take something down because of a few cancerous comments or because a couple of people didn't like it. After all, that type of content is something I want to eventually have on the Primer. But now that I have a better idea that still accomplishes the goal of aiding new players, I am gladly taking it down for something that I'm more excited for. It will make it's way back into the primer but in a better way. When it's a completed product I'm sure this content will fit nicely somewhere, but now was not the time and that was not the place for it. What keeps me reassured is that I've already given Smallpox a separate space and that no real Modern player who picks up 8Rack is going to say "hey look, let me see if Pack Rat, of all things, works in here". That's just not a thing people do in Modern. All in all I'm personally happy with the change and am looking forward to refining the card rating system and posting a more complete version of it in the near future.
People are pissed at you for good reasons, basically whatever opinions which go against you are cancerous. Sorry i don't think you are fit enough to be the author of this primer. You are too opinionated, you have an ego issue. I don't know what is your issue with smallpox and pack rats, they have proven to be decent. Tom Ross put up results with a smallpox variant, its good i tested it, but i prefer the bridge version, but i won't be nasty and tell new players that pack rats and smallpoxes are bad even after removing the section you are still bitter about it. Anyway what happened to memory lapse's stock list?
When you write a primer its not about your opinion only. It's about putting in what had been proven to work. Deck lists that put up results, past/stock deck list which performed, the real core deck which play bridges and another core variant which plays smallpox, new cards to consider etc, not do things like put some blue splash which you replace the stock list with and promote your BR list. You always feel that things that you can't agree with is always wrong and cancerous that you are always right? How are you suppose to write a primer with these kind of mindset? Shouldn't name this 8rack primer an 8rack primer, should name it Esprino's rack primer, because its all about your opinion pushing and promoting your BR version, while you unwillingly succumb to putting Tom Ross's list or any thing which you can't accept after people have to tell you repeatedly with pitch forks.
If i have friends/family who are interested in building 8rack. I'll ask them to refer to tom ross's lists or the old primer. Anyway there isn't even a budget decklist for new players, maybe you should create a section for that instead of promoting your opinions which pisses people off.
I finally got my deck together! As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'm a newbie with this particular deck, but I have relatively clear sense of what it wants to do and how to pilot it.
So, here's my iteration at the moment. I like to think it as the "meat and potatoes" version of the deck, nothing fancy. All constructive criticism (both positive and negative) and other suggestions are well appreciated!
What I have been thinking about is to cut 1 Flickerwisp and 1 Pilgrim's Eye and replace them with the fourth Lone Missionary to lower the curve a tiny bit and with the fourth Court Hussar to ensure card draw and selection. What could the pros and cons of this change?
Thanks in advance!
Hi, i've recently completely cut Pilgrim's eye off my list as i felt its the weakest link. Reason being instead of trying to race to have enough plains for emeria, i just try to play without thinking about emeria, its actually better this way. Also another reason is because i have a copy of crucible of worlds i can always bring back flooded strand or ghost quarter, i felt that 3 court hussar is enough to help me filter and draw what i need. There are several games where Emeria isn't online to make the opponent concede, but win anyways.
I actually prefer Lone Missionary compared to Inquisitor of exarch but it comes down to preference really. IMO 4 life gain is pretty sick, and i kinda like the look on the opponent's face when i was actually really low on life or when i just keep rec-curing him every turn with motarpod and sun titan. Exarch is more aggro, but i usually like to go the a little more durdly route with a full set of missionaries.
I play an extra copy of supreme verdict and detention sphere Main. Meta has alot of aggro these days. You can try Nevermore in your sideboard, great against combo decks. I've ever nevermore Thoughtknot seer it helped to cripple my opponent. I think 2 Tormod's crypt is sufficient, maybe you can add surgical extraction. I don't play Aether spellbomb though.. i think its a good card, but never really use it much when i play tested it.
My cousin has been bugging me to play test lunar force in main, maybe you can try that. Anyway your deck at its current state is pretty decent.
Just some suggestions which i think like some have already mentioned.
1)Feature memory lapse stock build and Tom Ross's build as mains
2)Should remove the section which is biased against smallpox and pack rat. Pack Rat was the card that won me a number of games when i removed a removal from the start and produced rats all the way.
I know this is a late reply to this ancient thread.
First of all every format have its archetypes and meta, eventually players will choose the best and most streamlined efficient way to build their decks. Being ignorant about it and whining when you lose to a better player is just being bad and salty.
You said your best deck have 78 cards. Wizards and everyone have said before that 60 is the optimal unless you have a deck that specially needs more which is extremely rare. You come in here to whine about mono red aggro, but you Didn’t even get the basics right in the first place.
You refusing to be similar to any other netdeck out there doesn’t make you better or special, just makes you silly. Even players who have come out with their own special brew have studied the meta and the archetypes themselves before constructing their decks.
The solution to beat RDW? I think most players have already said. Anything life gain, control decks.. so many ways to beat red decks.
I play red deck wins and I also play esper control. Although my variants aren’t exactly the same as the netdecks, they win me games.
Also git gud. Really, adapt instead of whine.
Geezus... at one point of time the discussion reminded me of a toxic era in the 8rack thread.
Bottle gnomes give me the option of gaining life whenever I want. Always found the gnomes more superior, and has saved me a couple of times against burn match ups.
Yup Rest in Peace will screw our graveyard gameplan but yeah its still a very powerful answer to dredge. Tormod's Crypt is still a good option but probably needs more answers later, so usually Ghostly Prison is a good stopper for aggro based decks which don't have many lands, just have to watch out for nature's claim etc. Surgical extraction also works. A Wipe like hallowed burial can be good against dredge but its 5cc, we may die before that.
Smuggler I Guess. At least hussar and missionary can man it haha.
Yup Gideon is quite affordable. Unfortunately Crucible isn't cheap, was very lucky my good friend passed me his binder with a crucible inside haha. The wipes are a meta call though, lots of aggro these days. Actually... Crucible, wrath of god and Gideon are flex slots. Although to me Crucible is a necessity as it help me in a lot of ways especially ensuring i have land drop every turn or the ability to bring back quarter to destroy tron lands/any important lands the opponent have.
But i think your choice of having eldrazi skyspawner is a good one, you don't really need crucible i guess, skyspawners + Flickers can ramp to your titan real quick.
Gideon, is just that guy who beats down after a wipe haha, he also tanks aggro for you or even delay kikijiki combo with his +2(Although the combo is almost non existent, cousin still plays it though), you can also flicker him when he is a creature to replenish his points again.
I play more wipes because eventually i'll get my creatures back on the board with emeria and titan. Our creatures are expandable, decks like elves, merfolk, affinity value their creatures more. Dredge however... argh, that is where Surgicals, tormod's and ghostly prisons come in.
Here is my deck list =)
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
7 Plains
1 Island
4 Ghost Quarter
Creatures (19)
4 Wall of Omens
4 Lone Missionary
4 Flickerwisp
3 Court Hussar
4 Sun Titan
4 Path to Exile
2 Mortarpod
2 Negate
3 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict
1 wrath of god
1 crucible of worlds
1 Gideon jura
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 nevermore
2 Negate
3 ghostly prison
2 Stony Silence
1 pithing needle
1 damping matrix
Ah ic ic. Yeah Rune halo is a great card, though i usually use nevermore as a combo stopper. Maybe i should find space to put rune halo in too..
Mmm ok. Pack rat is much like a plan B. It can single handedly win games by its own. It's also quite resilient.
Just a few examples. You inquisition and you see 1 removal. Take away removal. by turn 2 play pack rat. Turn 3 play your 3rd land, Pass the turn. If he draws a spot removal doesn't matter, you can make token already. End of his turn make a pack rat. Let's say he doesn't have a removal, by his end turn you have 2 rats. On your turn 4 You can have 3 rats, if you have 4 lands including a mutavault you have 3 rats which can be 4/4. Repeat and if everything goes well the opponent can't deal with the pack rat problem you win.
Against a hand full of removals, just play as per normal. When they have no more removals, sometimes they assume you play no creatures they throw away their spot removals from wrench minds. Play pack rat, pass the turn, if they still don have removals that's great, assuming you have racks and shrieking in range maybe he have 0-1 cards, You can just Attack Hand.. win the way 8rack does. Let's say he manage to draw more cards for whatever reason maybe ancestral visions or sphinx, or you didn't draw hand removals. You can continue to build your rat army if you feel the rack won't get in range.. play plan b.
For situations where you play pack rat behind the bridge. You can build your rat army, lily can continue to +1. If opponent draws a removal against bridge, your rat army is a backup.
People are pissed at you for good reasons, basically whatever opinions which go against you are cancerous. Sorry i don't think you are fit enough to be the author of this primer. You are too opinionated, you have an ego issue. I don't know what is your issue with smallpox and pack rats, they have proven to be decent. Tom Ross put up results with a smallpox variant, its good i tested it, but i prefer the bridge version, but i won't be nasty and tell new players that pack rats and smallpoxes are bad even after removing the section you are still bitter about it. Anyway what happened to memory lapse's stock list?
When you write a primer its not about your opinion only. It's about putting in what had been proven to work. Deck lists that put up results, past/stock deck list which performed, the real core deck which play bridges and another core variant which plays smallpox, new cards to consider etc, not do things like put some blue splash which you replace the stock list with and promote your BR list. You always feel that things that you can't agree with is always wrong and cancerous that you are always right? How are you suppose to write a primer with these kind of mindset? Shouldn't name this 8rack primer an 8rack primer, should name it Esprino's rack primer, because its all about your opinion pushing and promoting your BR version, while you unwillingly succumb to putting Tom Ross's list or any thing which you can't accept after people have to tell you repeatedly with pitch forks.
If i have friends/family who are interested in building 8rack. I'll ask them to refer to tom ross's lists or the old primer. Anyway there isn't even a budget decklist for new players, maybe you should create a section for that instead of promoting your opinions which pisses people off.
Hi, i've recently completely cut Pilgrim's eye off my list as i felt its the weakest link. Reason being instead of trying to race to have enough plains for emeria, i just try to play without thinking about emeria, its actually better this way. Also another reason is because i have a copy of crucible of worlds i can always bring back flooded strand or ghost quarter, i felt that 3 court hussar is enough to help me filter and draw what i need. There are several games where Emeria isn't online to make the opponent concede, but win anyways.
I actually prefer Lone Missionary compared to Inquisitor of exarch but it comes down to preference really. IMO 4 life gain is pretty sick, and i kinda like the look on the opponent's face when i was actually really low on life or when i just keep rec-curing him every turn with motarpod and sun titan. Exarch is more aggro, but i usually like to go the a little more durdly route with a full set of missionaries.
I play an extra copy of supreme verdict and detention sphere Main. Meta has alot of aggro these days. You can try Nevermore in your sideboard, great against combo decks. I've ever nevermore Thoughtknot seer it helped to cripple my opponent. I think 2 Tormod's crypt is sufficient, maybe you can add surgical extraction. I don't play Aether spellbomb though.. i think its a good card, but never really use it much when i play tested it.
My cousin has been bugging me to play test lunar force in main, maybe you can try that. Anyway your deck at its current state is pretty decent.
Just some suggestions which i think like some have already mentioned.
1)Feature memory lapse stock build and Tom Ross's build as mains
2)Should remove the section which is biased against smallpox and pack rat. Pack Rat was the card that won me a number of games when i removed a removal from the start and produced rats all the way.
Thanks and keep up the hardwork.