I guess they don't HAVE to shuffle if they fail to search.
For ghost quarter & path to exile, yes they can choose to not search. Fetchlands are the mandatory ones. The Gatherer rulings are quite relevant:
1/1/2011 If an effect says “You may search your library . . . If you do, shuffle your library,” and you haven’t paid 2, you can’t choose to search, so you won’t shuffle.
1/1/2011 If an effect says “Search your library . . . Then shuffle your library,” and you haven’t paid 2, the search effect fails, but you will still have to shuffle.
Just curious as to how you guys deal with people forgetting to pay for arbiter at Competitive REL events. I've always simply reminded my opponent they need to pay 2 if they crack their fetch and pick up their deck, but I've had a couple players say that's a judge call.
If they crack their fetch without saying "hold priority" all you have to do is say "fetchland resolves" point at Leonin Arbiter and say "you can't search." If they try to pay 2, then you call a judge. Don't remind them. Also, they have to shuffle, even if they don't get to search.
We've also established what we consider our official "goal:" The smallest possible banlist, while also maintaining a diverse, healthy, fun metagame.
I suggest you edit the OP, and also make this a finalized decision, or else this thread and the discord will continue arguing about what should or shouldnt be banned, and that discussion will go nowhere.
While I love the openmindedness and creativity of most everyone in here, I do think that people are glossing over the few top finishes our deck has achieved over the past 2 years. Not to say they're ignored or they've gone un-praised, more that they've gone under-analyzed. Before you dismiss a certain card, or go off the creative deep-end, take a look at the following lists, which in my opinion are the most impressive D&T results in modern.
All of them play ~4 1drops (noble heirarch in GW, militant/familiar in W). All the lists (minus Wescoe) play 4 Flickerwisp. All of them play 2+ Horizon Canopy. All of them play 2 Aven Mindcensor. All of them play 4 Arbiter. All of them play 3 Stony Silence in the side. Etc etc.
This is not to say we shouldn't experiment or metagame (I won a GPT this weekend with a BW list) - but simply that we should pay more respect to these successful lists, especially those arguing against certain cards.
@elfboy, that is my sideboard exactly. My mainboard, compared to yours, is -1 Wasteland Strangler +1 Mangara of Corondor -1 Vault -1 Plains +1 Shambling Vent +1 Chapel.
I've been thinking of cutting something for 2 Surgical Extractions tho. Probably one of the affinity hate and the RIP.
I think a monowhite build should run 4x GQ and 4x TecEdge at a minimum. 13 white sources is all we need (according to the much quoted article) - giving us room for 10 nonwhite sources. And I'm of the opinion that a manabase should be made as BAD as possible, not as good as possible. So for me, 8 land destruction, 2 mutavault. (Next week ill replace mutavault with the Ruins). On top of that, I think the white sources should be 8 plains 4 Horizon Canopy 1 Eiganjo Castle. Same basic principle. Yes a painless manabase is an advantage, but it is an advantage we can leverage. I'd prefer to have a mostly painless manabase with carddraw, than a completely painless manabase without. On average we'd still deal less damage to ourselves than a jund/grixis/etc deck, which i still consider an advantage.
1. Despite the 4 Horizon Canopies and 4 Temple Gardens, Wescoe is confidant enough with his burn matchup to cut Kor Firewalkers. I agree here, and would extend this to say that we do not need Auriok Champion either. I bring in 1 Thalia 2 BFTs and 2 Sunlances for this matchup, boarding out 1 Vial 2 Crusaders and 2 Flickerwisps. And generally my burn matchup is very good.
2. He only plays 2 Thalias main, and no Vryn Wingmares. The thalia tax is worse in modern, it shuts down very few decks. and even in the UR Twin matchup, one of the places where I thought thalia was best, wescoe cuts it stating "Thalia is solid in the matchup but is slightly worse than any other card in the deck." I will continue playing 3 thalias main (1 side) due to the prevalence of Burn, Lantern, Infect, Delver, and strange combo decks in my meta, but I like wescoe's choice since he expected lots of Tron & Bloom, and was confidant with his burn matchup.
3. Wescoe's deck is extremely resilient to removal. Liege, Smiter, Voice are all great vs bolt. Furthermore, his deck isn't scared of Electrolyze, Kholaghans Command, Pyroclasm, or Liliana - cards which my monoWhite deck has a lot of trouble playing around.
4. No mainboard spellskites. Also, he does not board them in vs Burn or Grixis or Affinity. He seems to only bring them in when necessary - Twin, Infect, and what I presume to be boggles (he calls it WG aggro). This seems a more confidant method of playing than the defensive mainboard spellskites many people in this thread have advocated for. To tie this in to #3 - I think it is better to have creatures which are innately resilient than to play spellskites to protect a non-resilient threat. Spellskite's 0 power is a very real downside in a fair deck that wins by attacking (except vs Ensnaring Bridge, I guess).
5. His losses were to affinity - this is despite his 4 stony silences side. Here is where I'll opine that it was his mainboard, and not his sideboard, which is unprepared for the matchup. His deck has a total of 3 fliers (and 2 reach manlands). My monowhite build has 10. The average affinity deck plays 12 fliers (and 8 flying manlands). Blockers are our best removal in this matchup. He even suggests even more sideboard slots dedicated to the affinity matchup. Personally I play 2 Sunlances 2 Stony Silences 2 Ratchet Bombs and 2 Dismembers in the side for the affinity matchup. That's as many slots as wescoe dedicates, but less focused on beating the unfair draws (which we can't often beat anyway) and more focused on getting rid of their pertinent threats (ravager, overseer), and allowing my serra avengers / GQs / Golems easily deal with the aftermath. Cranial plating is seldom a problem if we can simply block the creature it is attached to. We have bigger beaters and better topdecks, we just have to survive the flood with blockers and removal. Apre le deluge, nous.
Beyond that I'll just say that I like that there's nothing cute or tricky about his decklist. Mostly beaters and efficient threats with arbiters and mindcensors thrown in. He also really loves Wiltleaf Liege, plays it in both modern and legacy . Liege being playable reinforces my thoughts about modern being a midrange value based format (much like standard) but with blazingly fast (but beatable) decks thrown in (tron, amulet, burn, affinity) - and that we have to be equally mindful of both sides when building a fair creature based deck like ours.
Mirrorpool is interesting. Why does it add <> and not just {1}?
This is an important question. <> in the mana cost makes sense if we assume it to be Exclusively Colorless. But adding <> vs adding (1) to your mana pool??? I see no reason for that unless <> must be paid with exactly <>. If that's the case, I'm much less excited about this.
Another option i see is that <> is "exclusively colored", which is rainbow mana that cannot be used to pay colorless cost, and that <> in mana costs may be payed with either any color or <>, but not colorless. I don't like that option either, tbh.
The problem is, according to the current rules, this new land does literally nothing. Not even tap for colorless.
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is {W}; for Islands, {U}; for Swamps, {B}; for Mountains, {R}; and for Forests, {G}. See rule 107.4a. Also see rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”
I'm salty guys. Just got 0-2d 3 times in a row by amulet bloom. Guess I'll be buying some Chalices after all. Hive Mind is a dirty card. blegh.
Also for anyone playing online, I think Allies is going to be the new flavor-of-the-month deck. It's being featured in this weekend's modern open and is doing ridiculously well. I highly recommend playing 2+ Wrath of Gods and some Grafdigger's Cages in your sideboard. Or perhaps some Hallowed Moonlights. Or maybe Hushwing gryff? Anything that wipes the board & fights their etb triggers, & something to fight CoCo.
Hey Chalupacabra I have a few questions about your Wb list.
Why the orzhov pontiffs main, and the wasteland stranglers side? Why not the other way around, or maybe even a split of both? Is it due to a certain local meta?
2nd, why not a sword? Or at least a bonesplitter? Crusader, avenger, thalia, spellskite, and souls all benefit greatly from equipment. Even a shambling vent equipped with a bonesplitter is a huge threat.
3 chalice and 3 surgical seem like a lot of sideboard slots on cards that dont do much. Chalice is good vs.... bloom? Burn? Storm? Lots of matchups that I don't think you need help with. And with maindeck skites, souls, and pontiffs, i dont think you need them for affinity either.
Last q: whats your sideboard plan for midrangey black decks? Jund, grixis, abzan - the whole goyf slamming, liliana minusing, snapcaster flashbacking, k.command value-getting crew? Personally I cut my aether vials and bring in rip, bft, and dismember (also sunlances vs confidant / jace) - but you play none of these. Are you not scared of sideboard anger of the gods, or the ridic value they get from their graveyards? I know its a nonbo with lingering souls, but still. I feel with your lack of finks/splicer it is going to be difficult to keep up with their card advantage.
Oh. And as for mana base, i HAVE lost games due to isolated chapel. Switched to painlands, havent had problems since. (though I cant wait for the bw fastland to be printed)
I just think that both promise and hangerback are too sliw. If your end goal is to have a bunch of tokens, lingering souls is the most efficient and immediate effect.
As boardwipe protection, promise might be playable, but i'd rather not play scared and defensive.
For ghost quarter & path to exile, yes they can choose to not search. Fetchlands are the mandatory ones. The Gatherer rulings are quite relevant:
1/1/2011 If an effect says “You may search your library . . . If you do, shuffle your library,” and you haven’t paid 2, you can’t choose to search, so you won’t shuffle.
1/1/2011 If an effect says “Search your library . . . Then shuffle your library,” and you haven’t paid 2, the search effect fails, but you will still have to shuffle.
If they crack their fetch without saying "hold priority" all you have to do is say "fetchland resolves" point at Leonin Arbiter and say "you can't search." If they try to pay 2, then you call a judge. Don't remind them. Also, they have to shuffle, even if they don't get to search.
but the Vancouver top8 eldrazi&taxes list has ZERO aether vial (& only 2 flickerwisp, which makes sense with 0 vial): http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpvan17/top-8-decklists-2017-02-19
it also has 4 shining shoal (2 in side, 2 in main) & 3 chalice in the side. O_o I'm not sure what to think about this list, myself. Thoughts?
I suggest you edit the OP, and also make this a finalized decision, or else this thread and the discord will continue arguing about what should or shouldnt be banned, and that discussion will go nowhere.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Elliot Smith
The dude probably has better irl finishes than most people playing this deck.
Hans Christian Ljungquist - 5-8th Place - GP Copenhagen - 21 June 2015 - 1437 players
Craig Wescoe - 3/4th place - GP Pittsburgh - 22 November 2015 - 2674 players
Elliot Smith - 31st Place - SCG Cincinnati - 5 September 2015 - 494 players
EronRelentless - 2nd Place - MOCS - 20 March 2016 - 311 players
Serafin Wellinger - 1st Place - BoM9 - May 3 2014 - 307 Players
All of them play ~4 1drops (noble heirarch in GW, militant/familiar in W). All the lists (minus Wescoe) play 4 Flickerwisp. All of them play 2+ Horizon Canopy. All of them play 2 Aven Mindcensor. All of them play 4 Arbiter. All of them play 3 Stony Silence in the side. Etc etc.
This is not to say we shouldn't experiment or metagame (I won a GPT this weekend with a BW list) - but simply that we should pay more respect to these successful lists, especially those arguing against certain cards.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Eldrazi Temple
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Plains
1 Swamp
Tho if you're playing thoughtsieze, relesbao's 15W/13B/10C might be better for you.
I've been thinking of cutting something for 2 Surgical Extractions tho. Probably one of the affinity hate and the RIP.
1. Despite the 4 Horizon Canopies and 4 Temple Gardens, Wescoe is confidant enough with his burn matchup to cut Kor Firewalkers. I agree here, and would extend this to say that we do not need Auriok Champion either. I bring in 1 Thalia 2 BFTs and 2 Sunlances for this matchup, boarding out 1 Vial 2 Crusaders and 2 Flickerwisps. And generally my burn matchup is very good.
2. He only plays 2 Thalias main, and no Vryn Wingmares. The thalia tax is worse in modern, it shuts down very few decks. and even in the UR Twin matchup, one of the places where I thought thalia was best, wescoe cuts it stating "Thalia is solid in the matchup but is slightly worse than any other card in the deck." I will continue playing 3 thalias main (1 side) due to the prevalence of Burn, Lantern, Infect, Delver, and strange combo decks in my meta, but I like wescoe's choice since he expected lots of Tron & Bloom, and was confidant with his burn matchup.
3. Wescoe's deck is extremely resilient to removal. Liege, Smiter, Voice are all great vs bolt. Furthermore, his deck isn't scared of Electrolyze, Kholaghans Command, Pyroclasm, or Liliana - cards which my monoWhite deck has a lot of trouble playing around.
4. No mainboard spellskites. Also, he does not board them in vs Burn or Grixis or Affinity. He seems to only bring them in when necessary - Twin, Infect, and what I presume to be boggles (he calls it WG aggro). This seems a more confidant method of playing than the defensive mainboard spellskites many people in this thread have advocated for. To tie this in to #3 - I think it is better to have creatures which are innately resilient than to play spellskites to protect a non-resilient threat. Spellskite's 0 power is a very real downside in a fair deck that wins by attacking (except vs Ensnaring Bridge, I guess).
5. His losses were to affinity - this is despite his 4 stony silences side. Here is where I'll opine that it was his mainboard, and not his sideboard, which is unprepared for the matchup. His deck has a total of 3 fliers (and 2 reach manlands). My monowhite build has 10. The average affinity deck plays 12 fliers (and 8 flying manlands). Blockers are our best removal in this matchup. He even suggests even more sideboard slots dedicated to the affinity matchup. Personally I play 2 Sunlances 2 Stony Silences 2 Ratchet Bombs and 2 Dismembers in the side for the affinity matchup. That's as many slots as wescoe dedicates, but less focused on beating the unfair draws (which we can't often beat anyway) and more focused on getting rid of their pertinent threats (ravager, overseer), and allowing my serra avengers / GQs / Golems easily deal with the aftermath. Cranial plating is seldom a problem if we can simply block the creature it is attached to. We have bigger beaters and better topdecks, we just have to survive the flood with blockers and removal. Apre le deluge, nous.
Beyond that I'll just say that I like that there's nothing cute or tricky about his decklist. Mostly beaters and efficient threats with arbiters and mindcensors thrown in. He also really loves Wiltleaf Liege, plays it in both modern and legacy . Liege being playable reinforces my thoughts about modern being a midrange value based format (much like standard) but with blazingly fast (but beatable) decks thrown in (tron, amulet, burn, affinity) - and that we have to be equally mindful of both sides when building a fair creature based deck like ours.
This is an important question. <> in the mana cost makes sense if we assume it to be Exclusively Colorless. But adding <> vs adding (1) to your mana pool??? I see no reason for that unless <> must be paid with exactly <>. If that's the case, I'm much less excited about this.
Another option i see is that <> is "exclusively colored", which is rainbow mana that cannot be used to pay colorless cost, and that <> in mana costs may be payed with either any color or <>, but not colorless. I don't like that option either, tbh.
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is {W}; for Islands, {U}; for Swamps, {B}; for Mountains, {R}; and for Forests, {G}. See rule 107.4a. Also see rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”
Also for anyone playing online, I think Allies is going to be the new flavor-of-the-month deck. It's being featured in this weekend's modern open and is doing ridiculously well. I highly recommend playing 2+ Wrath of Gods and some Grafdigger's Cages in your sideboard. Or perhaps some Hallowed Moonlights. Or maybe Hushwing gryff? Anything that wipes the board & fights their etb triggers, & something to fight CoCo.
Why the orzhov pontiffs main, and the wasteland stranglers side? Why not the other way around, or maybe even a split of both? Is it due to a certain local meta?
2nd, why not a sword? Or at least a bonesplitter? Crusader, avenger, thalia, spellskite, and souls all benefit greatly from equipment. Even a shambling vent equipped with a bonesplitter is a huge threat.
3 chalice and 3 surgical seem like a lot of sideboard slots on cards that dont do much. Chalice is good vs.... bloom? Burn? Storm? Lots of matchups that I don't think you need help with. And with maindeck skites, souls, and pontiffs, i dont think you need them for affinity either.
Last q: whats your sideboard plan for midrangey black decks? Jund, grixis, abzan - the whole goyf slamming, liliana minusing, snapcaster flashbacking, k.command value-getting crew? Personally I cut my aether vials and bring in rip, bft, and dismember (also sunlances vs confidant / jace) - but you play none of these. Are you not scared of sideboard anger of the gods, or the ridic value they get from their graveyards? I know its a nonbo with lingering souls, but still. I feel with your lack of finks/splicer it is going to be difficult to keep up with their card advantage.
Oh. And as for mana base, i HAVE lost games due to isolated chapel. Switched to painlands, havent had problems since. (though I cant wait for the bw fastland to be printed)
As boardwipe protection, promise might be playable, but i'd rather not play scared and defensive.