That's why I play Dromoka, the Eternal. It does what Citadel Siege does except it's a 5/5 flier that bolsters when it strikes. I have it as a two of in my deck in case my hydra / buff strategy falls flat and I need something to push the game through.
Dromoka is a full two turns slower than Citadel Siege though. Still is worth playing in some lists, but it's not for everyone.
My main concern is you have to be fast enough to beat Ugin, the Spirit Dragon against some decks, since he just cripples our strategy by wiping out Hardened Scales and all the +1/+1 counters we painstakingly accrued in one fell swoop.
Against aggro it doesn't matter if truths draws 7 if you have to spend your turn 3 and 3 life to do it. That's what I was getting at. The extra mana and life is more important than the extra card. 3 life is not a lot under normal circumstances, but 3 life is a lot when you're drawing cards. Because that means you're the control deck, so you have to preserve your life total. I overlooked that it's sideboard tech for the control mirror in a tri-color control deck. That's a marginal application.
Fathom Feeder needs a home, because processors will not provide it one. Do you follow?
Leaf Gilder is not a good card. Sorry I'm too lazy to justify that.
No tangolands to reduce the risk of having them in the opening hand and playing it tapped. Of course Magical Christmasland, T2 total 8 damage, T3 another 9 damage.
I like what you're doing. Being super-aggressive seems like the way to go.
I think the deck wants exactly one Cinderglade so that every fetchland can fix your mana, but no more than that.
The problem with having only mountains and forests is it makes Lightning Berserker weaker.
Edit: Actually if you do that then you don't need 4 Lightning Berserkers anymore to recover after a sweep, so you get to take one out for Zurgo Bellstriker
I think this set is awesome for speculators. People are looking for the wrong kind of synergies and interactions and miss some simple yet effective cards:
Horribly Awry is secretly an AWESOME sideboard tool.
Beastcaller Savant is closer to Leaf Gilder than to Elvish Mystic since you can't go T1-T3. The typing is going to be what makes or breaks it. Do we have enough good cards that specifically bolster other Elves or Allies? Hard to say. I'm leaning no.
Painful Truths is tough. Sign in Blood is much better since it's a whole mana less. The issue is the aggro decks don't want to spend 3 mana recharging their hand and the control decks don't want to spend 3 life. So where does this go?
Nissa's Renewal would not be playable in any other standard environment. It's not so much that you're spending 6 mana to ramp. It's that you're spending 6 mana not to win the game. That means your deck has even more 6+ mana cards in it. So how many dead cards can you afford to draw against aggro? Maybe this environment is slow enough? I always think a new format is going to be slower though, and I'm often wrong.
Fathom Feeder is pushed. Azure Mage saw play and Deathtouch is obviously better than a point more power. Plus, both blue and black needed a turn 2 play. I don't believe in the processor deck right now. Maybe next set. So it needs a home.
I agree that all of those cards are potentially playable, but none of them are slam-dunk, guaranteed investments.
Horribly Awry is worse than Essence Scatter except against Deathmist Raptor or if you're playing some gimmicky processor deck. It's a serviceable sideboard card, nothing more.
Which creatures can beat Siege Rhino without it? Managorger and Hangarback with 2 turns of investment and Hardened Scales? Avatar can trade with Hardened Scales on the field and another guy with a +1/+1 counter. Anything else? Siege is just so much more efficient. That's why you guys all have to run Valorous Stance and other protection nonsense. You get like one huge creature a game and if that falls you have a rough time getting around blockers or racing flyers. The only way I can see not playing 4 is if you have a consistent turn 4 goldfish, and I don't think anyone has that.
Deathmist Raptor lends itself very well to Citadel Siege, so if you play one you should play the other.
A lot of these lists will fall flat on their face if they don't draw Hardened Scales. I think I have the best 56 if you remove that card. That's another reason to play Deathmist Raptor.
The other way to play the deck is much more all-in with Honored Hierarch and Servant of the Scale and Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I think that version creates new weaknesses without actually improving any of it's matchups, but maybe I'm underestimating its goldfish.
I like your list Mongo. Without any testing I'd prolly swap the Retreats for Goblin Heelcutter. It just seems better in all but rare niche cases, and the upsides (gives a body after a sweeper, keeps Dromoka's Command not doing much) are very relevant, IMO.
I'd also cut a basic land for Evolving Wilds. More land drops is more better lol, and I really don't think you need 4 mana, just 4 turns of land drops.
I also like lugger's plan of splashing a single black mana for Self-Inflicted Wound in the side. In testing that card is almost maindeck worthy. You have Mardu aggro, GW Counters, green-based ramp, and Abzan goodcards comprising the lions share of playable archetypes. You could even put your swamp or black tango in the sideboard. It's also super convenient that the opponent has to keep his Hangarback uncracked.
I've been using dragons as my finishers. The advantage of this approach is you get Haven of the Spirit Dragon, so you don't need as many finishers, which means you get more ramp/defense, and you get to play Scaleguard Sentinels to give you a chance against sligh.
I'm really high on Citadel Siege. I think you have to play 4 in all but the most aggressive builds. It trumps Languish because your creatures can easily outpace it. It allows you to commit less to board wipes in general. It takes away the need to play Valorous Stance since you can just make a new "queen" if they remove the first one. Don't need to tell you that it synergizes well with Hangarback and tramplers and Den Protector and Dromoka's fight mode. It helps provide a buffer against opposing Dromoka's Commands. Plus it has an entire other mode with it's own niche applications. (Indestructible 10/10 eldrazi? Meh.) I'm always happy to draw 2 or even three since I run Denmist package as well, so I'm rarely short on creatures.
Here's what I've been testing. Straight GW. Not playing any of the new sweet 3-drops because I already have ~15 turn 3 plays. I'd have to cut Managorger, Deathmist, or a morph and those cards are also sweet.
@other guy, what cards specifically do we have to exile stuff. Abzanfenza sure, but other than that I think the best option is literally Touch of the Void, who's main claim to fame is that it beats a card that costs 1 mana less than it.
Have I missed any cards? Don't agree with some of my choices? I'd love to know!
My deck is close to yours. Evolutionary Leap is bad because we're putting counters on our creatures, so trading them out for fresh ones is pretty bad most of the time. Your mana base is better but 23 land is more comfortable with morphs to sink, IMO. I don't like Valorous Stance because we don't really fear huge beatsticks like Siege Rhino, since we have huger beatsticks like Managorger Hydra and whatever we voltron up with Citadel Siege. Tasigur is nice to hit, but you can fight him with Command anyway. The indestructibility is hard to replace I'll grant, but if they wipe the board we're a Siege activation/Raptor boost/ Hangarback flood away from building it back up again, so it's not critical. Plus it doesn't protect against Languish.
I think Jeskai Burn with Mantis Rider and Exquisite Firecraft and Jeskai Charm is not so strong anymore, precisely because there aren't enough cards that can clear a path and go to the face. Jeskai tokens with Jace and Secure the Wastes and Dragon Fodder is a fine deck still though, especially against an unprepared field. In that deck you can use a combination of Roast and Valorous Stance to destroy opposing creatures.
Dromoka is a full two turns slower than Citadel Siege though. Still is worth playing in some lists, but it's not for everyone.
My main concern is you have to be fast enough to beat Ugin, the Spirit Dragon against some decks, since he just cripples our strategy by wiping out Hardened Scales and all the +1/+1 counters we painstakingly accrued in one fell swoop.
Fathom Feeder needs a home, because processors will not provide it one. Do you follow?
Leaf Gilder is not a good card. Sorry I'm too lazy to justify that.
The problem with having only mountains and forests is it makes Lightning Berserker weaker.
-2 Retreat
+2 Heelcutter
Edit: Actually if you do that then you don't need 4 Lightning Berserkers anymore to recover after a sweep, so you get to take one out for Zurgo Bellstriker
-1 Mountain
+1 Evolving Wilds
SB:
+1 BG Tango
+4 Self-Inflicted Wound
Beastcaller Savant is closer to Leaf Gilder than to Elvish Mystic since you can't go T1-T3. The typing is going to be what makes or breaks it. Do we have enough good cards that specifically bolster other Elves or Allies? Hard to say. I'm leaning no.
Painful Truths is tough. Sign in Blood is much better since it's a whole mana less. The issue is the aggro decks don't want to spend 3 mana recharging their hand and the control decks don't want to spend 3 life. So where does this go?
Nissa's Renewal would not be playable in any other standard environment. It's not so much that you're spending 6 mana to ramp. It's that you're spending 6 mana not to win the game. That means your deck has even more 6+ mana cards in it. So how many dead cards can you afford to draw against aggro? Maybe this environment is slow enough? I always think a new format is going to be slower though, and I'm often wrong.
Fathom Feeder is pushed. Azure Mage saw play and Deathtouch is obviously better than a point more power. Plus, both blue and black needed a turn 2 play. I don't believe in the processor deck right now. Maybe next set. So it needs a home.
I agree that all of those cards are potentially playable, but none of them are slam-dunk, guaranteed investments.
Horribly Awry is worse than Essence Scatter except against Deathmist Raptor or if you're playing some gimmicky processor deck. It's a serviceable sideboard card, nothing more.
Deathmist Raptor lends itself very well to Citadel Siege, so if you play one you should play the other.
A lot of these lists will fall flat on their face if they don't draw Hardened Scales. I think I have the best 56 if you remove that card. That's another reason to play Deathmist Raptor.
The other way to play the deck is much more all-in with Honored Hierarch and Servant of the Scale and Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I think that version creates new weaknesses without actually improving any of it's matchups, but maybe I'm underestimating its goldfish.
I'd also cut a basic land for Evolving Wilds. More land drops is more better lol, and I really don't think you need 4 mana, just 4 turns of land drops.
I also like lugger's plan of splashing a single black mana for Self-Inflicted Wound in the side. In testing that card is almost maindeck worthy. You have Mardu aggro, GW Counters, green-based ramp, and Abzan goodcards comprising the lions share of playable archetypes. You could even put your swamp or black tango in the sideboard. It's also super convenient that the opponent has to keep his Hangarback uncracked.
Be realistic and edit your list. Mist Intruder is not even going to be played in every blue draft deck.
3 Windswept Heath
3 GW Tango
3 GR Tango
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
13 Forest
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Whisperer of the Wilds
4 Scaleguard Sentinels
3 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Frontier Siege
3 Hedron Archive
1 Explosive Vegetation
4 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
No interaction whatsoever. Gross.
Here's what I've been testing. Straight GW. Not playing any of the new sweet 3-drops because I already have ~15 turn 3 plays. I'd have to cut Managorger, Deathmist, or a morph and those cards are also sweet.
4 Hardened Scales
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Hangarback Walker
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Citadel Siege
4 Surrak the Hunt Caller
@other guy, what cards specifically do we have to exile stuff. Abzanfenza sure, but other than that I think the best option is literally Touch of the Void, who's main claim to fame is that it beats a card that costs 1 mana less than it.
My deck is close to yours. Evolutionary Leap is bad because we're putting counters on our creatures, so trading them out for fresh ones is pretty bad most of the time. Your mana base is better but 23 land is more comfortable with morphs to sink, IMO. I don't like Valorous Stance because we don't really fear huge beatsticks like Siege Rhino, since we have huger beatsticks like Managorger Hydra and whatever we voltron up with Citadel Siege. Tasigur is nice to hit, but you can fight him with Command anyway. The indestructibility is hard to replace I'll grant, but if they wipe the board we're a Siege activation/Raptor boost/ Hangarback flood away from building it back up again, so it's not critical. Plus it doesn't protect against Languish.