Marc, how about a Discord server? I guess a lot of primers here are migrating there, I sure would support it. If we could, I guess we should merge with the polymorph thread, we can create multiple "polymorph" like channels.
Regarding polymorph, I don't think its a good idea to combine the 2, because while both decks want to flip up their libraries and hit a fatty, the color combinations played are typically different; the state-of-the-art polymorph deck employs new-teferi to instant-speed their polymorph, and they generally play a longer game with no real plan B, but they have a stronger control game. This mardu deck is more proactive with discard, generates more tokens, and can finish games with token beatdown, but has less control over the opponent.
Further, Creativity can perform stunts with artifacts as well, which changes the scenario completely when it comes to payoffs AND how our spell interacts with opponents- for eg, against their ensnaring bridge.
It's with a heavy heart that I announce the migration of this primer.
I've chosen MTG the Source as the destination. I don't know where the next Modern discussion forum will be, but the Source seems to be the next most visited site, albeit for legacy.
This may have already come up in this thread, but what would people think about sideboarding in an Unburial Rites package (for Gifts Ungiven) as an alternate win condition? I feel like it might take opponents by surprise, and could be a bit of a toolbox as well.
Might want to play a few Faithless Looting MD in this build, just for synergy.
Here's 3 reasons that's out.
1. If you draw your wincon (iona etc) or unburial, you are literally stuck with a dead card until you find a looting, of which you have 4 copies, not really enough.
2. This is a horrible sideboard plan because the first thing every opponent does against storm is board in GY hate.
3. The second most sideboarded plan against Storm: leyline of sanctity effects. Which turns off Gifts ungiven.
Are we afraid of weather the storm? I get is game if we are tight on spells, but when we are unchecked..we grapeshot for 20, that gain 63 let's say...we go on comboing off and eventually kill them right? Something like grapeshot remand the second one with storm 30. I think is only a problem combined with other forms of hate
Put it this way - they gain 3 times of whatever storm count you managed to work up to. And if that first attempt didn't consume too much resource, then you've got a hope, sure. They're probably at 30+ life. But if your handsize is now 2-3 cards, mostly lands, your GY is spent, then I think you might have an issue overcoming their new life total.
It's **** like this that makes me look even more closely at Aria of Flame, which doesn't demand you do everything the same turn, and hits harder and harder with each spell.
Hi guys. I will be taking the deck in a new direction after next week. I don't know if it will solve all the problems this deck does have, but I do know its going to be fun as heck. I've changed the way the cards are categorized so its easy to see quickly what I'm up to.
I'm still tuning the concept on paper before MH1 releases. I feel like the deck moves faster like this, but my comfort zone with inferno titan wants to pull me back...
The problem here is that the ninjas aren't exactly being cast.
Even if you never cast a creature with ninjutsu, you can scry off of Mothdust Changeling and Arcane Adaptation, and upon further consideration, Snapcaster Mage, Spellseeker, Wingcrafter, Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, and Invisible Stalker are humans. With bouncing to hand, you can get multiple turns of scry 1 from one card. I don't mean to suggest it's an immense upside that would wildly change the deck, but the floor on the card is swapping a basic for a guildgate, and the ceiling is a few free scrys in a deck that explicitly likes to scry.
Simply put, Yuriko doesn't like taplands, because the whole yuriko thing is getting your free cards and round-table damage from turn 2. So if we DO play a tapland, it has to be a large payoff. Occasionally getting a scry 1 off of coincidental type shares like "human"? Let's not. Yes, scry has some use in Yuriko. But what would be even better, or really just "good enough", is stuff like Scroll rack or Top.
from my perspective Kess is on the same power-level-ish as 1UBR Nicol Bolas (NBR). You get immediate value (flashback 1 card vs opponent discards). Kess wins on this point.
NBR hits harder for a 5 turn clock in the air, Kess hits for 3, likewise in the air.
NBR has a much stronger top-end, but Kess keeps giving every turn as long as your GY is stocked, without any further input from the pilot (apart from the casting cost of the spell).
Perhaps the trickiest part of the equation is Kess needs you to keep her alive, which is best done with counterspells, but then her ability works best with discard, which puts tension on your deckbuilding choices. She wants Dreadbores, Rise // Fall, Inquisition of Kozilek, but she needs Countersquall, Cryptic Command, Spell Pierce.
Next question is - does she outdo the other 4 cmc sorcery-speed threat, JTMS? That appears to be on a whole other wavelength but make no mistake, they're in direction competition for the same slots in this deck. In fact JTMS despite being another permanent type probably has more in common with Kess than NBR, although Kess shares the same vulnerabilities as NBR.
How many copies of Kaya's Guile should we be playing in the maindeck?
I don't know that I'm going to run any. It doesn't appeal to me. The token is a insignificant bonus and all of the other effects will often be wanted a turn or two earlier.
I dunno about that, this card draws many similarities to Kolaghan's Command, which was initially derided as a overcosted "shock, raven's crime, raise dead, shatter". You got a bunch of mediocre, if typically sideboard functions, all built into a swiss army knife, and most importantly, you get to choose 2. The CMC is likewise balanced and attractive - you don't have any creatures to remove on turn 3 and onwards? Surely this was just hyperbole? Or you might be referring to needing to exile the graveyard earlier. Lifegain on turn 3 against aggro is not too late, if you have been working with discards and our basic removal turns 1 and 2. So really you're just hitting at 2 of the modes: token mode only produces 1. GY mode is too slow for dredge.
My counterpoints are as follows -
Value: for 3 cmc, 1 token accompanied by the most relevant effect is value. The fact you can entwine everything in the late game makes this an excellent topdeck.
GY hate: this isn't fast enough for Dredge's stronger hands, perhaps. But it is plenty fast for Phoenix, Storm and snapcaster effects. You'll just have to keep banking on Path and Settle for your dredge needs.
Token: Yes, it is one token. If it were 2, this card would be unbalanced, because you have 2 effects. In our deck, the token isn't going to typically be a 1/1 flier. So for 3 cmc, I'd argue that 1 token is plenty. This isn't a replacement for souls, but it's close to Start // Finish in that it provides another token in the deck while letting you retain control elements.
Aria of Flame is super interesting. As far as the math goes, after you cast this you need to string 7-8 spells to "overcome" the 10 life granted. If we ritual into this on turn 2, it's very likely we'll kill our opponent turn 3, and their spot removal won't mean a thing, we don't have to care about surgical extractions, and we won't be needing a graveyard to hit that number. Would I be exaggerating if I said this might be even better than grapeshot in our deck?
Since I do not have any Snapcaster Mage what do you think would be the best way to implent Dreadhorde Arcanist? The way I see it that discard is a preemptive counter and it feels that you cannot go wrong with IoK. Should I go with a more aggressive build and focus on UR delver with bolts coming from the arcanist and creatures from young pyro? Should I consider playing looting on Grixis Delver?
If you're playing delver and lack the budget for snapcaster, you can consider using Mission Briefing instead for your value, and then leverage on that higher spell count by playing spells matters threats such as thing in the ice, bedlam reveler or young pyro. Incidentally, replacing scm with briefing does make your namesake threat a little better.
I did badly with my list at FNM going 1-2. I lost to another grixis brew involving Dreadhorde Arcanist and Burn. I beat Storm.
It's perhaps not unexpected that my weakpoints would be aggro and a deck like storm would be stripped down to nothing, but I felt like I was lacking options in my games. I lost to a simple 1/3 trample value creature (arcanist), which is ridiculous for grixis. I wasn't finding any of my pushes or terminates. Conversely I would find myself with countersqualls when facing creatures, pushes when facing Bump in the night... ugh.
I think I'll be increasing the number of cantrips to assist in finding the right answers for the right times.
I'm all for a discord channel, will create one and post link here. edit: https://discord.gg/6XSxmB7
Regarding polymorph, I don't think its a good idea to combine the 2, because while both decks want to flip up their libraries and hit a fatty, the color combinations played are typically different; the state-of-the-art polymorph deck employs new-teferi to instant-speed their polymorph, and they generally play a longer game with no real plan B, but they have a stronger control game. This mardu deck is more proactive with discard, generates more tokens, and can finish games with token beatdown, but has less control over the opponent.
Further, Creativity can perform stunts with artifacts as well, which changes the scenario completely when it comes to payoffs AND how our spell interacts with opponents- for eg, against their ensnaring bridge.
I've chosen MTG the Source as the destination. I don't know where the next Modern discussion forum will be, but the Source seems to be the next most visited site, albeit for legacy.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33033-Primer-Mardu-Creativity-(Sword-amp-Shield)
Here's 3 reasons that's out.
1. If you draw your wincon (iona etc) or unburial, you are literally stuck with a dead card until you find a looting, of which you have 4 copies, not really enough.
2. This is a horrible sideboard plan because the first thing every opponent does against storm is board in GY hate.
3. The second most sideboarded plan against Storm: leyline of sanctity effects. Which turns off Gifts ungiven.
Put it this way - they gain 3 times of whatever storm count you managed to work up to. And if that first attempt didn't consume too much resource, then you've got a hope, sure. They're probably at 30+ life. But if your handsize is now 2-3 cards, mostly lands, your GY is spent, then I think you might have an issue overcoming their new life total.
It's **** like this that makes me look even more closely at Aria of Flame, which doesn't demand you do everything the same turn, and hits harder and harder with each spell.
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
Enablers (12)
4 Collected Conjuring
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Electrodominance
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Crashing Footfalls
4 Stone Rain
4 Pillage
2 Anger of the Gods
Real Estate (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
2 Breeding Pool
6 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
I'm still tuning the concept on paper before MH1 releases. I feel like the deck moves faster like this, but my comfort zone with inferno titan wants to pull me back...
Simply put, Yuriko doesn't like taplands, because the whole yuriko thing is getting your free cards and round-table damage from turn 2. So if we DO play a tapland, it has to be a large payoff. Occasionally getting a scry 1 off of coincidental type shares like "human"? Let's not. Yes, scry has some use in Yuriko. But what would be even better, or really just "good enough", is stuff like Scroll rack or Top.
NBR hits harder for a 5 turn clock in the air, Kess hits for 3, likewise in the air.
NBR has a much stronger top-end, but Kess keeps giving every turn as long as your GY is stocked, without any further input from the pilot (apart from the casting cost of the spell).
Perhaps the trickiest part of the equation is Kess needs you to keep her alive, which is best done with counterspells, but then her ability works best with discard, which puts tension on your deckbuilding choices. She wants Dreadbores, Rise // Fall, Inquisition of Kozilek, but she needs Countersquall, Cryptic Command, Spell Pierce.
Next question is - does she outdo the other 4 cmc sorcery-speed threat, JTMS? That appears to be on a whole other wavelength but make no mistake, they're in direction competition for the same slots in this deck. In fact JTMS despite being another permanent type probably has more in common with Kess than NBR, although Kess shares the same vulnerabilities as NBR.
Not ironically, Flusterstorm is the only real way we can protect ourselves from this sideboard card.
I dunno about that, this card draws many similarities to Kolaghan's Command, which was initially derided as a overcosted "shock, raven's crime, raise dead, shatter". You got a bunch of mediocre, if typically sideboard functions, all built into a swiss army knife, and most importantly, you get to choose 2. The CMC is likewise balanced and attractive - you don't have any creatures to remove on turn 3 and onwards? Surely this was just hyperbole? Or you might be referring to needing to exile the graveyard earlier. Lifegain on turn 3 against aggro is not too late, if you have been working with discards and our basic removal turns 1 and 2. So really you're just hitting at 2 of the modes: token mode only produces 1. GY mode is too slow for dredge.
My counterpoints are as follows -
Value: for 3 cmc, 1 token accompanied by the most relevant effect is value. The fact you can entwine everything in the late game makes this an excellent topdeck.
GY hate: this isn't fast enough for Dredge's stronger hands, perhaps. But it is plenty fast for Phoenix, Storm and snapcaster effects. You'll just have to keep banking on Path and Settle for your dredge needs.
Token: Yes, it is one token. If it were 2, this card would be unbalanced, because you have 2 effects. In our deck, the token isn't going to typically be a 1/1 flier. So for 3 cmc, I'd argue that 1 token is plenty. This isn't a replacement for souls, but it's close to Start // Finish in that it provides another token in the deck while letting you retain control elements.
they gave us entwine and you want to choose same modes multiple times??? calm down satan
This isn't one of those times.
Kaya's Guile
The only questions are:
1. What does this replace?
2. How many copies in the main?
If you're playing delver and lack the budget for snapcaster, you can consider using Mission Briefing instead for your value, and then leverage on that higher spell count by playing spells matters threats such as thing in the ice, bedlam reveler or young pyro. Incidentally, replacing scm with briefing does make your namesake threat a little better.
It's perhaps not unexpected that my weakpoints would be aggro and a deck like storm would be stripped down to nothing, but I felt like I was lacking options in my games. I lost to a simple 1/3 trample value creature (arcanist), which is ridiculous for grixis. I wasn't finding any of my pushes or terminates. Conversely I would find myself with countersqualls when facing creatures, pushes when facing Bump in the night... ugh.
I think I'll be increasing the number of cantrips to assist in finding the right answers for the right times.